Thin/Fine Support Thread

*Sorry this is gonna be long, I had an epiphany just now :lol: *

Ok...I have to bump this thread in light of some recent events. I've been chronicling my salon visits with my new stylist who is one of the nicest, coolest ladies in the hair game. I say that because she has been in the hair game for a long time. Teaching professional for Clairol and I think Wella, too. And on her second salon in the Atlanta area. All about healthy hair for real, to the point where she is getting on my nerves :lachen:

Anyhoo, so I've gone to her for a few shampoos here and there, and let me tell you the very first time I went she touched my hair and said "Ooh! Your hair is very fine. You need a protein treatment." :look: I'm thinking to myself, "No I don't I use k-pak every 2 wks, and PM Hair Repair weekly".
Ladies, she put DRC 28 on my hair, and then followed it with Affirm 5n1 as the dc :thud: My hair turned out so soft and strong, no broken hair on the floor. The next week she relaxed me with Design Essentials (I think it was the lo-lye b/c they don't have a mild) and I was maybe 80-85% straight. She used Affirm 5n1 as the mid-protein step...Two weeks later, she dc'd me with Dudley's Hair Rebuilder. Strong, soft hair, no broken hair on the floor. And this past weekend (4wks post) she touches my hair and says I need a protein treatment--so we do another DRC 28. This time I let her flat iron my hair and it was :lick:. Again. Soft, strong, no broken hair on the floor.

Now mind you--I did not change my routine and do more moisture. In fact, I sought out stronger conditioners. I'm back to my Joico K-pak shampoo and conditioner, mainly because I cannot use the "moisturizing" shampoos (the k-pak has a good balance). My hair gets too stretchy from Kenra, etc :nono: Which sucks b/c I just bought that Lanza Healing Moisture line :wallbash:

So...thanks to Michelle, a light bulb finally came on as to why I haven't seen more results in the two years I've been on my hair journey. I was not in the moisture/protein "pocket". I followed everyone's general rule of "when in doubt, err on the side of moisture" and it stifled me and sabotaged all of my length goals. Go to my fotki, look at my pics from 2007. That's from too much moisture, not enough protein. I have not updated my progress pics yet, but I did post some new rollerset pics--you will see the difference. My old stylist (the last 2-3 updates) did not deep condition and only did protein at relaxer time, and my hair thinned out. :wallbash: So what I was doing clearly wasn't enough, because I didn't know.

Bottom line: If you have fine hair, by definition, you have less cuticle layers than our coarser haired sistas. So what must you do? Reinforce what natural strength you do have and protect those cuticle layers from damage. How? Protein. Regularly :yep: Now don't freak out please, and say "Heck naw! My ish will dry out and break off" b/c what you need to do is mix and match protein with your moisture. Here are some combinations I have come up with so far:

*One way is to use your moisturizing shampoo, and then a deep conditioner that is balanced with protein and moisture. And example of this is Affirm 5n1, or ORS Hair Mayo. Yes is known as a "creme reconstructor" or "mild/medium protein treatment" in some arenas, but that's the kind of stuff our hair needs. That product has enough moisture in it that you don't need a moisture conditioner afterwards (esp. not an additional one w/heat :nono:). Read the bottle/packaging; it adds both moisture and strength.

*Another way is mix to medium level proteins with moisture and use them all at once as your DC instead of doing protein, then moisture. If you dc w/heat too much it will swell those cuticles and then your hair will break. This is that inevitable breakage that we assume we are going to have b/c we have fine hair. Yes, we will have some, but really look at how much you have. Trust me, you can have even less if you just look at this from a more centralized point of view.

*Another way is to use a protein/strengthening shampoo (like Joico K-pak, Lanza Protein plus or Redken Extreme) and then a moisture conditioner for 1-5 min, followed by a balanced leave-in spray like Motions Nourish. If you find that is too much for you, then go ahead and use a moisturizing leave-in like Kenra Daily Provision.

If you find that right before you begin styling your strands are off (too stretchy or not stretchy enough) then resolve it right then with either an appropriate leave-in or moisturizer that can fix it. Don't wait until after you've dried/styled your hair. It'll just get worse afterwards and maybe harder to figure out which one you need.

Now if you have dry hair, then by all means, you need to resolve it. But how do you know you really have dry hair? Maybe its the products you are using making it dry, y'know? The amount of moisture we need compared to a coarse haired person is gonna be different too...Just a thought :scratchch Now that I've upped my proteins I retain moisture like crazy and I don't have to use moisturizer in between. I just apply a drop of Vatika oil to my hair as needed.

Seriously, if your cuticle layers are intact, your hair will style better, you will need less products :spinning: and your head of hair will be thicker and softer naturally. Also, we have to keep our products light. Our fine strands can only hold so much product. So let's make the best of our situation and grow some hair dagnabit :giggle:
 
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Artemis,

Thanks for the info. I am getting alot of breakage lately, more than usual to be exact. I couldn't understand it. I know my hair stretched a little, but I never put two and two together. I need some protein. I am just scared of protein overload, but I think I may have enough moisturizing conditioners and LIC to help with that.
 
It's been my experience that the only way to have protein overload would be if you just used nothing but protein all the time. Which would fall in line with the opposite extreme of using only moisture all the time. Hair doesn't work like that. You need both. All the time. Now the trick is finding what ratios of each you need, and that will fluctuate depending on what's going on with your hair. But you cannot have one without the other. So many fail to see this fact, and then wonder why they are "stuck at SL", which was me. :nono:
 


*Another way is mix to medium level proteins with moisture and use them all at once as your DC instead of doing protein, then moisture. If you dc w/heat too much it will swell those cuticles and then your hair will break. [U]This is that inevitable breakage that we assume we are going to have b/c we have fine hair.[/U] Yes, we will have some, but really look at how much you have. Trust me, you can have even less if you just look at this from a more centralized point of view.


A, I think this is also where that thinning found in certain patches in our hair comes from. Like as it gets longer I know alot of us, of all hair types, notice thinness in some areas. In us, the fine haired ladies, we see the thinness even sooner.

We all know every hair on our head isn't the same size. The cuticle swelling back and and forth back and forth to the extremes causes the thinner ones to be weaker and improper styling can just make that worse. Thats why the thinning isn't just regular, "I burned a patch of hair off" breakage. It is throughout the whole head of hair.

(again, my opinion only)
 
Artemis, I completely agree with your post.

I have fine hair and when I upped my protein my hair started doing much better!! I use emergencee every wash and my hair loves it!
 
You can see that thinning on the ends coming in the form of a lighter appearance of the strands. That's the cuticle layer fraying way. When it frays completely that is a split end. When it's starting to lighten, you can stop it in its tracks but once those inner layers are exposed that hair's a goner...:perplexed

Now that I have upped my protein my hair is all the same color from roots to ends. There are no inconsistencies in the smoothness (thinning throughout the shaft). My hair is more durable and shiny.
 
You can see that thinning on the ends coming in the form of a lighter appearance of the strands. That's the cuticle layer fraying way. When it frays completely that is a split end. When it's starting to lighten, you can stop it in its tracks but once those inner layers are exposed that hair's a goner...:perplexed

Now that I have upped my protein my hair is all the same color from roots to ends. There are no inconsistencies in the smoothness (thinning throughout the shaft). My hair is more durable and shiny.

Yep and thats why many fine haired ladies have problem too keeping their ends moist. We are all looking for the perfect moisturizer but if the cuticle layer is gone and the protein is gone, the hair can't hold it. Thats also why many fine haired ladies can't do baggying....too much moisture back and forth stretching the strand until it breaks.
 
Something else I want to point out--from Akbari's book--"daily moisturizers" are support products. Meaning that they support your conditioning regimen. So if your hair doesn't need additional support, then don't use it. Don't moisturize your hair everyday for no reason. It will weigh down the hair and break it. I use moisturizer maybe 1 or 2 days after washing if at all. Now I just use Vatika oil to give pliablity and to stretch wash day if needed.

Lisa Akbari says: "If your hair feels dry, use moisturizer. If your hair looks dry, use oil."

Edit: Also, Gym, something else Akbari said is that if the cuticle layer is damaged it cannot handle support or styling products anyways (in addition to the hair not being easy to style). She calls the cuticle layer the "styling layer". So adding them is moot. You have to always get your regimen in order first.
 
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Artemis - Co-sign!

That's why I use conditioners and leave-ins weekly with protein and moisture in it. I can't go without the other.

I have my staple DC but I want to try the Mizani FulFyl Conditioning Treatment

Fulfyl® Conditioning Treatment

This conditioner combines the elements most vital to hair's health - protein and moisture- into one balance-sustaining formula for the basic maintenance of the hair. This unique fusion provides a microscopic layer on the cuticle to seal-in moisture and prevents heat surface damage
 
You know what, this is why wet bunning might contribute to thinning the in back of your hair, that section is the last to dry when you twist it up in the bun....Hummmmmmm
 
Artemis - Co-sign!

That's why I use conditioners and leave-ins weekly with protein and moisture in it. I can't go without the other.

I have my staple DC but I want to try the Mizani FulFyl Conditioning Treatment

Fulfyl® Conditioning Treatment

This conditioner combines the elements most vital to hair's health - protein and moisture- into one balance-sustaining formula for the basic maintenance of the hair. This unique fusion provides a microscopic layer on the cuticle to seal-in moisture and prevents heat surface damage


I used to use this a long time ago. My hair looked good considering I didn't know how to take of it then. I know they changed the formula and I haven't used it since but its worth a shot again. I had fond memories of it.

You know pink, this is why me and you love the joico intense hydrator too.

I know sebastian has that 2n1 conditioner that is 2 parts moisture and 1 part protein. They changed their line so even though you can still find it, I am not sure what the equivalent is or if there even is one now. Maybe I can email them.
 
Something else I want to point out--from Akbari's book--"daily moisturizers" are support products. Meaning that they support your conditioning regimen. So if your hair doesn't need additional support, then don't use it. Don't moisturize your hair everyday for no reason. It will weigh down the hair and break it. I use moisturizer maybe 1 or 2 days after washing if at all. Now I just use Vatika oil to give pliablity and to stretch wash day if needed.

Lisa Akbari says: "If your hair feels dry, use moisturizer. If your hair looks dry, use oil."

Edit: Also, Gym, something else Akbari said is that if the cuticle layer is damaged it cannot handle support or styling products anyways (in addition to the hair not being easy to style). She calls the cuticle layer the "styling layer". So adding them is moot. You have to always get your regimen in order first.

I need to pick up this book STAT!

My hair would get dry and hard between applications of my moisturizers, but I've noticed since I've upped my deep condition my heat feels great without these prodcuts!

They were just not offering lasting results!
 
Something else I want to point out--from Akbari's book--"daily moisturizers" are support products. Meaning that they support your conditioning regimen. So if your hair doesn't need additional support, then don't use it. Don't moisturize your hair everyday for no reason. It will weigh down the hair and break it. I use moisturizer maybe 1 or 2 days after washing if at all. Now I just use Vatika oil to give pliablity and to stretch wash day if needed.

Lisa Akbari says: "If your hair feels dry, use moisturizer. If your hair looks dry, use oil."

Edit: Also, Gym, something else Akbari said is that if the cuticle layer is damaged it cannot handle support or styling products anyways (in addition to the hair not being easy to style). She calls the cuticle layer the "styling layer". So adding them is moot. You have to always get your regimen in order first.
Okay Artemis, where can I find this book? What is the actual name of the book?
 
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I used to use this a long time ago. My hair looked good considering I didn't know how to take of it then. I know they changed the formula and I haven't used it since but its worth a shot again. I had fond memories of it.

You know pink, this is why me and you love the joico intense hydrator too.

I know sebastian has that 2n1 conditioner that is 2 parts moisture and 1 part protein. They changed their line so even though you can still find it, I am not sure what the equivalent is or if there even is one now. Maybe I can email them.

Ok..thank you!

The PJ kicked in today....I don't understand why I feel the need to purchase new products when I already have my staples. Insanity:drunk:.

I went to JCPenny's and bought the Mizani Renew Strength Reconstructing Gelee and the Mizani Moisturefuse Conditioner. The ingredients for both products seem to be on point. I'm going to mix these two products together for a moisture/protein balance DC.

Also, I was on Mizani website and they encourage license stylist to mix their products. They call it a custom mix blend for clients (something like that). I've been eyeing Mizani products because I was impressed with the Thermasmooth Conditioner trial size. That stuff is the bizness for stretching relaxers.
 
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Ok..thank you!

The PJ kicked in today....I don't understand why I feel the need to purchase new products when I already have my staples. Insanity:drunk:.

I went to JCPenny's and bought the Mizani Renew Strength Reconstructing Gelee and the Mizani Moisturefuse Conditioner. The ingredients for both products seem to be on point. I'm going to mix these two products together for a moisture/protein balance DC.

Also, I was on Mizani website and they encourage license stylist to mix their products. They call it a custom mix blend for clients (something like that). I've been eyeing Mizani products because I was impressed with the Thermasmooth Conditioner trial size. That stuff is the bizness for stretching relaxers.

ITA with this whole post especially about the Mizani products - I just love them.
 
To combat the thin endz that i've battled for the last 7 months, i have now whacked off 3 inches of hair...and it's still not as thick as i want it to be (in the last year i know i've but at least 8 inches of hair, at least)....i was bsl -again- i am now barely apl...

this will be the last time i cut my hair bcs of breakage/thinning. i declare it. i had to get that off my chest...i will now purchase ovation as a christmas present to myself...Merry Christmas LHCF!
 
I think this is what Artemis is referring to....http://www.lisaakbari.com/ - The Hair Doctor...be careful, she has products for sell.....(I cannot let the PJ emerge)

Lisa Akbari has two books:

1. The Black Woman's Guide to Beautiful Hair

2. Every Woman's Guide to Beautiful Hair at Any Age

She also has a radio show on BlogTalkRadio 2x/week. I posted a thread about it...

Thanks sqzbly1908 and Artemis. I will check these links out.
 
I promise you ladies are like heaven-sent.

Artemis, I think you're REALLY onto something. Sometimes I feel like my hair regimen is a study in randomness. I remember when I was using Keraphix weekly how much better my hair felt/behaved. For some reason once I ran out, I never replenished. :nono: And no wonder my hair has been stuck ever since. I've been hacking off thin ends left and right for months now. You would think I would learn. :nono:

I'm going to try using the protein more often on my strands - or it would probably be easiest for me to use the more balanced protein-moisture conditioners that you mentioned.

Alright, I feel encouraged. I'm going to start over with a nice solid cut and maintain (and retain) growth from there. Here's to happy hair growing in 2009!!!
 
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That's good info. Glad to get some confirmation.

Here's one way to get a cheapie protein/moisture shot:

Garnier L&S condish, mixed 1 part to two parts of Generic Humectress - gave my hair a perfect soft/strong feel.
 
I believe Affirm 5n1 is a recon conditioner it's recommended after relaxer. You may find it cheaper in TJ Max for $19
 
Is Affirm 5n1 a moisturizing conditioner?

Protein reconstructs the hair and Affirm 5 in 1 is a reconstructor so therfore it is a protein conditioner and as someone mentioned, it is perfect when used after a relaxer to rebuild the cutilce bonds of the hair broken down by the relaxer.
 
Protein reconstructs the hair and Affirm 5 in 1 is a reconstructor so therfore it is a protein conditioner and as someone mentioned, it is perfect when used after a relaxer to rebuild the cutilce bonds of the hair broken down by the relaxer.

OK. Thanks. I hadn't had any experience with this particular product. :yep:
 
Thanks Ladies!

SB, yes Affirm 5n1 is a creme reconstructor. It has protein in it which will rebuild protein lost from chemical treatments but it also have some moisturizing ingredients in it to help maintain moisture levels. Not sure if you've read Shamboosie's book but he also breaks down the different types of conditioners out there as well for more info. He does recommend Nexxus products, too, which includes Keraphix.


Also ladies, if you end up experimenting with what I have presented in this thread, please post your experiences and product combinations where applicable. I am definitely eager to see how this works with my other fine-haired sistas.

Don't forget that if you're natural, your protein level requirements may differ from a relaxed head obviously. However, fine hair still needs maintain those cuticle layers regardless, so keep an open mind :up:

Happy Holidays, btw :bighug:
 
I cowash everytime I shower and thats the only time I manipulate it. That has helped a whole bunch with retention. Also, I sleep with a shower cap and deep conditioner every night (I look pretty crazy in my dorm, lol). I haven't found anything to help thicken it, but until I can try some henna (which I just got gifted, yay!) I'm just trying to keep as much of my thin hair ON my head as possible! LOL

ETA: Whenever I try protein treatments my hair gets real dry and then I do everything I can to moisturize and lose hairs in the process...lots of hairs. So, for now I'm not going to do protein.
 
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