Is there such thing as a Saved "Christian" Fornicator?

[Guitarhero]

Can I respectfully ask WHY it's so necessary to determine whether another person is saved or not? Aren't we supposed to be concerned about OUR walk with God? I'm not talking about not caring for humanity at all but that nit-picky "s/he isn't saved" attitude that is so prevalent in the christian community when it should be all about "how am I doing, Lord?"

 

[Poohbear]

Pooh, it's funny you have started this thread.. you must've been watching Benny Hinn? Two days ago, I watched his teaching on that same Scripture (1 John 3:9), which basically identifies what it really means to be born again. The message to unbelievers, is they must first be born again. For believers, they must renew their mind (abide).... it's not an instant thing but a process. It's not about judging anyone but looking at what God's Word says.

This is why God wants us to keep his Word continually before our eyes...the more we do, the more of his wisdom we acquire and the more 'see' the devil's tricks and wiles in our own lives. Satan loves to use our own weaknesses (what tempts us) against us, to get us to sin. He's been doing that since Adam. Being born into sin (Psalms 51) is no excuse to stay in it. Once we know our temptations, we turn away from them or don't purposefully put ourselves in positions to be tempted.
It's always good see how far we've come, with transformation through the Holy Spirit. People who are born-again WILL CHANGE; everyone's growth/process is different...the things I used to do, I do them no more, etc...

No, I don't even watch Benny Hinn at all. The reason I mentioned that verse 1 John 3:9 is because it has stuck with me ever since I was first introduced to it earlier this year from a Christian woman who claimed to no longer commit sin. Then I presented this verse to another Christian and they started changing the meaning of the word "commit".

And I agree with what you have said above.

 

[Poohbear]

Can I respectfully ask WHY it's so necessary to determine whether another person is saved or not? Aren't we supposed to be concerned about OUR walk with God? I'm not talking about not caring for humanity at all but that nit-picky "s/he isn't saved" attitude that is so prevalent in the christian community when it should be all about "how am I doing, Lord?"

It's really not about determining whether another person is saved or not... I said this was purely a scenario. Geez! This isn't about a person or other people I'm looking at in real life. And I'm certainly not having this "nit-picky s/he isn't saved" attitude. I'm actually asking SINCERE questions here. If you really want to know why I ask these questions is for MY OWN SAKE as it pertains to knowing if I am saved based on any sin I may commit.

It's easy for me or any Christian to be like "How am I doing, Lord?" and feel like everything is going good even when I'm really doing wrong. Why do we have to "shut up" when we have sincere questions about what the Bible is saying to us? That's the problem with the "church" today. Why do we have to accept "NO ONE WILL EVER STOP SINNING", but yet everyone is quick to judge someone that commits a sin they consider "big" such as fornication, adultery, murder, and the like? Are we all just gonna be living hypocrites for the rest of our lives? Huh, Volver Alma Gitana?

That's why I asked you if you believed in Universal Salvation, that no matter how much we sin, we all gonna be saved in the end just for believing in Jesus. I don't think so. Why would God put all those verses in there about being holy, righteous, pure, and perfect? He never said Jesus will be the only perfect sinless person in the world. Jesus just happened to be perfect and sinless because He was God in the flesh. I believe we can be made perfect AFTER giving up and repenting of all sin.

 

[Poohbear]

We all intend to sin when we do so. Someone struggling with pornography, or cursing, or fornication, etc. may very well be sincere in their attempts to stop sinning. But that turn around will not stop overnight cold turkey. In fact, the sin you so strongly desire to stop committing may cause temptation to intensify, making it even harder to stop. I agree, true repentance means we will turn away and not do it again, but we have to be realistic in understanding that it's not something that happens once you stop praying to God about it.

This is what I mean by 'habitual sin'. It's when for instance, I continue to sin over and over and over again, with no intention on stopping or repenting. That is what 1 John 3:6 speaks on. People who "keep on sinning". Those are the ones who are do not "live in Him". That is vastly different from a Christian who sins and sincerely asks for God's forgiveness.

Okay, you just said 1 John 3:6 is talking about people who "keep on sinning"... but didn't you say in a post earlier that "it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE TO STOP SINNING!"? Isn't that the same thing!?!? If Christians "can't stop sinning", that means we are going to "keep on sinning". Right?

 

[Poohbear]

I want to reiterate that the Amplified isn't "adding" words, rather if you look at those original Greek words those meanings are more accurate a translation as our english words tend to be derivative. We all have access to the original Greek to check it for ourselves. There may have been 5 different Greek words for sin and that particular word had those particular shades of meaning.

Also, there are a ton of sins we may commit unknowingly and not habitually. I do believe that if someone is habitually fornicating and has no guilt, I have to question whether they were saved in the first place, as the Holy Spirit inside cannot tolerate that continual conscious defilement and Jesus says that if we loved God we will keep his commandments. Christians who constantly succumb to their urges tend be the most miserable of folk as their spirits will agitate the flesh and vice versa.

Clearly the Bible states that Christians will be judged for what they did with their bodies and talents and we will suffer loss of reward for some of those things - and I wish to be always aware of that appointment I have with Jesus. However, the Bible also says that that grace is continually available to continually cleanse us.

Do you think that a Christian loses their salvation whenever they sin?

But that's the thing too... how do you, I, or anyone else know what the correct translation of any word is? Plus, so many people have different meanings of even the original Greek words of the Bible as well, so what gives?

I agree with your second paragraph.

But to answer your question about whether a Christian loses their salvation whenever they sin, I've been on the fence with that issue. I was taught to believe "once saved, always saved", but as I read the Bible, I'm starting to see fault in that doctrine. The Bible never says anyone "is saved" definitely. When the Bible talks about being saved, it always says "shall be saved". The word "shall" means "plan to, intend to, expect to, or is determined to". "Shall be saved" does not mean it has taken place or happened at that very first time of confessing with your mouth and believing with your heart. As Jeremiah 17:9 says, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

 

[fifi134]

Okay, you just said 1 John 3:6 is talking about people who "keep on sinning"... but didn't you say in a post earlier that "it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE TO STOP SINNING!"? Isn't that the same thing!?!? If Christians "can't stop sinning", that means we are going to "keep on sinning". Right?

Keep in sinning in this context means habitual sin. This verse is talking about nonbelievers, that's why it says no one who lives in Him keeps on sinning.

When I said Christians can't not sin, I'm not talking about habitual sin, because Christians will indeed sin. 1 John 1:9 says "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us".

And given the hypothetical situation you posed, I wouldn't say/not say if she's saved or not. Because Hebrews 12:1 speaks on the "sin that so easily entangles us". We each have our own sins that we struggle with. We may have sins we struggled with before we were saved, and continue to be entangled by even after salvation. We may be weak in our walks and more prone to fall into temptation, but I wouldn't be so quick to say one is not saved because of that.

 

[Guitarhero]

It's really not about determining whether another person is saved or not... I said this was purely a scenario. Geez! This isn't about a person or other people I'm looking at in real life. And I'm certainly not having this "nit-picky s/he isn't saved" attitude. I'm actually asking SINCERE questions here. If you really want to know why I ask these questions is for MY OWN SAKE as it pertains to knowing if I am saved based on any sin I may commit.

It's easy for me or any Christian to be like "How am I doing, Lord?" and feel like everything is going good even when I'm really doing wrong. Why do we have to "shut up" when we have sincere questions about what the Bible is saying to us? That's the problem with the "church" today. Why do we have to accept "NO ONE WILL EVER STOP SINNING", but yet everyone is quick to judge someone that commits a sin they consider "big" such as fornication, adultery, murder, and the like? Are we all just gonna be living hypocrites for the rest of our lives? Huh, Volver Alma Gitana?

That's why I asked you if you believed in Universal Salvation, that no matter how much we sin, we all gonna be saved in the end just for believing in Jesus. I don't think so. Why would God put all those verses in there about being holy, righteous, pure, and perfect? He never said Jesus will be the only perfect sinless person in the world. Jesus just happened to be perfect and sinless because He was God in the flesh. I believe we can be made perfect AFTER giving up and repenting of all sin.

Oh oh, please don't take offense. I'm sincere. We don't use words like "saved" or not and we don't ask others if they are "saved" or even "catholic," really. I'm just wondering why there is so much emphasis on a state that has not yet been achieved (as in, we're not yet in heaven...and all of us are working out our salvation daily). I realize that, here, my thoughts are often foreign.

Then, too, what tends to rub me wrong about "are you saved" is the abuse I suffered at the hands of countless well-meaning people. I'm sure they meant well, it's just the effects of their evangelization left a very sour taste in my mouth. Kinda like all the folks today looking at these preachers who haven fallen into the mud. How can they tell another their religion/views/heart/etc. are wrong when they do the same or worse things? LOL. Don't think I'm blind...the RCC has done its fair share of you-know-what to lots of Indigenous peoples world over.

I didn't mean to offend you...I truly wish to know. Is it like a JW or Mormon thing where you have to go out and win converts (as someone once explained to me...for their own salvation)?? They might have been wrong about that (they were ex-JW's) so I'm not going to hold that as truth. But ...well, why?

 

[fifi134]

Can I respectfully ask WHY it's so necessary to determine whether another person is saved or not? Aren't we supposed to be concerned about OUR walk with God? I'm not talking about not caring for humanity at all but that nit-picky "s/he isn't saved" attitude that is so prevalent in the christian community when it should be all about "how am I doing, Lord?"

I agree with this. I struggle with this sometimes because my pride will have me forgetting where I was when God chose me. But knowing if someone is saved or not is not important in the fact that we need to continue preaching the good news to EVERYONE. Not just the nonbelievers. You'll know someone is saved by the fruit they bear.

 

[Guitarhero]

. I'm actually asking SINCERE questions here. If you really want to know why I ask these questions is for MY OWN SAKE as it pertains to knowing if I am saved based on any sin I may commit.

Why do we have to "shut up" when we have sincere questions about what the Bible is saying to us? That's the problem with the "church" today. Why do we have to accept "NO ONE WILL EVER STOP SINNING", but yet everyone is quick to judge someone that commits a sin they consider "big" such as fornication, adultery, murder, and the like? Are we all just gonna be living hypocrites for the rest of our lives? Huh, Volver Alma Gitana?

That's why I asked you if you believed in Universal Salvation, that no matter how much we sin, we all gonna be saved in the end just for believing in Jesus. I don't think so. Why would God put all those verses in there about being holy, righteous, pure, and perfect? He never said Jesus will be the only perfect sinless person in the world. Jesus just happened to be perfect and sinless because He was God in the flesh. I believe we can be made perfect AFTER giving up and repenting of all sin.

Don't let the devil beat you up about this. Read those scriptures and believe on them. We have to forgive everyone as we ask God to forgive us (for anything), even we must forgive ourselves. There's a scripture about not being under condemnation but I can't think of where it is right now and I gotta pee lol so I'm in a hurry.

Yeah, there will be lots of hypocrites the world over, always. But individually, that's the person I'm responsible for. And God is a parent, He asks us to be the best we can be. Think of a parent teaching his child...knowing that his child is going to make mistakes. He expects the best and gives him the right direction on how to live. He doesn't cut him out for making an error and corrects him to set him BACK on the right path. A child who is close to his father might err, but he listens and returns.

Well, if I'm not wrong, I think that apostatasis points to the eventual salvation of everybody, even those in hell now...? That, at the end, all will be saved from hell and those heading to hell on earth. God gives choices and free will. Not all will accept it.

And I never would shut you up...I'm just asking the hardline questions too because if there is no inquisition, there is no attaining of further knowledge and no growth. :hug: And I know for certain there are those who WISH I'd shut up (bout now, they're going 'unh hunh!').

 

[Vonnieluvs08]

I think it goes back to what was said about repenting. IMHO you can't say you have repented if you find yourself continuing to practice the sin.

I have a friend who is now pregnant because of fornication. Sex was her weakness and the funny thing was when she had truly repented from it (completely turned away, stopped talking to the dude) she found out she was pregnant. I still consider her saved before, during, and after.

God will take our sin and teach us lessons. The Lord wants our obedience and being a God of patience and grace he will allow certain things to transpire until we completely submit ourselves to him. For my friend it was to find total peace and satisfaction in Christ alone. For an adulterous it may be the loss of family. For me it was some medical problems.

If you have truly accepted Jesus into your life you will be transformed. If your life isn't transformed by salvation and you show no evidence of growth (fruit) then I personally wouldn't think you were saved. There was a time in my life when I thought I had accepted Christ but since my life remained the same and I never felt conviction by the Holy Spirit when I committed sin or in how I lived my life I knew I hadn't completely and totally accepted Jesus.

Ladies if I can say one thing---its I am very grateful for CF and the ladies who love the Lord and desire to grow in Him through the dialogs we have. This one has been a great one to read and learn from.

 

[hair_rehab]

I was once involved in this same behavior, only it was happening before I became a leader at my church and I knew I had to make a choice. The first scripture that I thought of was Matthew 5:29-30:

If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

She should end the relationship with her boyfriend if she continues to fall back into sin with him. It's important that we give up relationships, hobbies, lifestyles that lead us back to immorality.

 

[Guitarhero]

ohbear;12132811]Here are some scriptures from the New Testament that stick out to me...

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21)

"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21-8)

"Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15)

These verses are telling me that God does not reward unrighteousness. He doesn't put any exceptions in there like "unless you believe in Jesus" or "unless you don't do it all the time" or "unless you feel sorry about what you do over and over again" or "unless you pray for forgiveness every time you do this sin". I can't see how someone can stand up and say "I'm a fornicator, and I believe in Jesus and I'm a Christian saved by the Grace of God." Now I can see if someone said "I WAS a fornicator" or "I USED TO BE a fornicator" as being a Christian who's saved, but not a person living as a current fornicator.

To the bolded, that would nip "apostatasis" in the bud, I guess. Right? Tell me what you think.

As far as there being no exceptions, one must not only understand the individual words making up the sentence, but one must comprehend the type of discourse being used (http://www.mbbc.edu/page.aspx?m=2184). There's a deeper meaning there and you can't just always take it literally. The scriptures are full of allegory...but exhortations as well..and what is being pointed out is that remorse of sin and continually coming back to righteousness is what makes up a believer. It does not at all mean that, if you fall, you will go to hell. You have to get back up again. Forgive 70 x 7 (but that's still not literal).

Poohbear, if we all went by your understanding of sin and mercy, none of us would ever hope to be saved because we've all sinned after receiving Christ. Then there would be no salvation for anyone. It's about your intent and your walk. Do you truly believe God has no experience and knowledge of the fallible human beings He's addressing through the apostles by offering a dangling carrot of salvation when, according to your interpretation, it's absolutely impossible? He loves you even more!!!

The evidences of a believer's life are that you are getting better and moving forward, with true remorse of heart and action. But it cannot mean that, if you have a habitual sin or occasional sin that you are TRYING to overcome, you are doomed to death. If you repent, He is there willing to take you back, each and every time. It's about understanding that we are not slaves to sin anymore but have a way out. Obviously, due to a person's psychology and deep developed habits, those sins are going to be very difficult to overcome and it will take time. Faith is the intermediate place...in Him and trusting His mercy. People who are not remorseful NEVER REPENT. This is the difference. Everyone's walk uphill has different slopes. I truly hope and pray that you can resolve that God loves us all and never wants to see any of us perish. You're like a little sister to me...and I have been there...influenced by an organization which I won't name that nearly destroyed all my peace in life. I was literally afraid to live because I knew I would sin. I still sin, but I know where to go to be absolved. I still cry when I am wrong...but that's because there is remorse and seeking of forgiveness. You will definitely walk this life of falling down your entire time on this earth. Whether or not you get back up again is the question. That's my motto in life.

 

[Guitarhero]

Geez Louise...another glitch...sorry

 

[Poohbear]

@ Vovler Alma Gitana, thank you for clarifying with me.

@ Vonnieluvs, good post. Thank you for contributing to the thread.

 

[Crown]

All sins that you KNOW for a fact are wrong are done intentionally and willfully. There's no way around it. Like this scenario, this girl knows that fornication is wrong and has read it in her Bible, but yet, still commits the sin because she enjoys it, but yet, feels bad about it ONLY because the Bible says it's wrong. So she is a born-again saved Christian because she feels bad about it only because it's wrong according to the Bible?

We all agree with : faith/fruits, sinless/sin-no-more, remorse, repentance, forgiveness, righteousness, holiness… TIME is also an important factor.

I consider the believer like an empire with kingdoms (habits/sins). When we come to the Messiah, the transformation begins; it’s not magic, the work needs time to be done, steps by steps, battle after battle, to put all the kingdoms down, and all the empire under the control of the Holy Spirit.

Look at the story : David/Bathsheba.

# 1 : Lust : 2Sam. 11: 2-3
# 2 : Adultery : 2Sam. 11 : 4
# 3 : Hypocrisy and Lie : 2Sam. 2Sam. 11 : 5-13
# 4 : Treason and Murder : 2Sam. 11 14-24

Remorse and repentance : NO!
2Sam. 11.25 Then David said unto the messenger, Thus shalt thou say unto Joab, Let not this thing displease thee, for the sword devoureth one as well as another: make thy battle more strong against the city, and overthrow it: and encourage thou him.
God sent Nathan to David : 2Sam. 12 : 1-4
Nathan tells a story about a man.

David’s anger against the other man : 2Sam. 12 : 5-6

Revelation : And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man : 2Sam. 12 : 7-12

Repentance : finally!
2Sam. 12.13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. 12.14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

Time frame? No clear indication.
Minimum : the time to deliver the baby.
[FONT=&quot]Maximum : it is said a child.

[FONT=&quot]Ps. [/FONT]19.12 …cleanse thou me from secret faults.[/FONT]

 

[Crown]

Sin is sin, whatever the sin. For some people, the sin is more evident, for example fornication; but for some, it can be lust or hate or lie…
Some people are stronger than others in one area. For some, 1 fall is enough.
Some need more time to fight the flesh, we need to keep fighting again and again till the victory. But, I believe in the victory.
Sometimes, the mooooooore time reflects the lack of connection through prayer, Bible reading…

I mostly agree with Poohbear. The purpose is not : God knows my heart, I am just a human and I will sin anyway, but He knows that I love Him and I will repent and I am sure He will forgive me.
The purpose is : sin no more!

 

[Rainbow Dash]

The points made in this thread have been great. It is awesome when we can come together and discuss the scripture.
Ephesians 5 really stuck out to me as I was reading it this morning. Paul was speaking to the Christians concerning walking in darkness. I understand that we fall and need forgiveness daily, but we are not to willfully practice sin. Im not saying the person is not saved but the word warns us about being entangled in sin. Sin is not something to play with, there are consequences to sin, you can develop strongholds and become a slave to it. She has become entangled and a slave to it. The word is clear though. I believe that this puts her salvation in jeporady and I would not want to be in that. She needs to run and run fast.
The word tells us the He will come as a thief, no one knows the time.

Ephesians 5:2-7

2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this you know,[a] that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

 

[Shimmie]

I agree that she should step down from teaching, but how can ANY "Christian" teach against sin if you believe all true Christians sin and still sin as long as they live? No one is really practicing what they are teaching/preaching. What's the use if we all still gonna sin anyway?

Getting pregnant or getting caught sleeping with her boyfriend is more of a concern for how she looks to other people and to the world... Shouldn't the concern be about what God sees, thinks, and knows, and not the world?

I'm sorry for not responding sooner the site was running slow for a while. :Rose:

You have an extremely valid question. I say extremely because we need answers that make sense.

When we read the accounts of the leaders in the Bible, God points our their attributes. There are some people who sin who have no intention of being repentive.

lucifer is the perfect example. He was the leader of the angels and yet he became rebellious; knowing full well who God is, he still sinned against God with absolutely no intent of repenting, for his goal was to take over and de-throne the Lord God Almighty.

Cain was a 'child of God' yet he committed murder and without repentance or remorse. His reaction was leaving his brother 'hidden' and dead and lied to God when he was asked where was Abel. Cain's reply, "Am I my brother's keeper?" {In other words, his response to God was, "...what are you asking me for, I never saw him."

We all know the story of Jonah which is a great example of the 'girl' of this thread topic.

Here's a reflection:

God gave Jonah a command. He disobeyed God, went his own way, to do his own thing. There was a drastic consequence. Jonah was cast out from among those he sought refuge [he was kicked off their ship) and he was imprisoned in the belly of the whale, until he repented. Upon repentance from his disobedience, he was given back his leadership.

NOW... back to the person in your topic...

Here's a woman, called of God to live a 'pure' life and to lead in Ministry (Children's Ministry). She strays into sexual sin; she does not repent; there is a consequence; and until repentance, she will remain in the consequence until she is out of the sin.

More than likely, and I'm telling you what I know, that I know, that I know, to be true. More than likely, 99% of the women who enter into sexual sin, get dumped by the man. I've seen it way too many times. Just take my word for it. They get dumped; just like the people dumped Jonah off of their boat.

Their heart gets broken, some end up with a baby [or two or three], or they spend their time and money playing 'house' for a man who never respected them enough to love and marry them. These precious hearts watch the man leave and end up with someone else.

Okay... I'll be fair here, maybe not 99% .... as I stated above.

The thing is one is reaping what one sows, and the one you sin with will more than likely 'sin' against you. ['You' is used is 'general' sense, not anyone personally :Rose: ].

Now here is what God is looking for... Those who know when it's wrong and choose not to do it and should they 'fall', they are quick to get it right and they mean it; they are not playing mercy games with God. They are not taking God's mercies for granted. They don't put themselves in a posture of sin or a mind that is bent towards a weakness and not bent towards obedience.

King Saul was weak and could not be trusted to lead.

King David was weaken and was immediately convicted when he was confronted and his repentance was pure and sincere. But his repentance was not without consequence.

The woman in this thread topic has a weakness un-submitted and therefore unconquered. The sin has control over her, not her having control over the sin. She is unable to stand and therefore unable to lead. I hope this makes sense. We can't afford weak leaders, it leads to disaster. For as long as a leader is weak, satan is able to throw one pebble after another in their path which will continue to trip them up. When a leader falls, it becomes a disaster and a setback in one's spiritual battle.

Here's a question: Would any of us continue to ride with a Driver who continues to disobey the laws of the road? If he was an alcoholic, unable to resist taking a drink here and there, would we allow him to continue to be the Driver of the buses, trains, airplanes, etc.? That's the message. One who is unable to stand strong, cannot lead us.

Hope this makes some sense. I'm better at this with my children and my little students in Sunday school. They have better examples than I do. They know, 'don't light a match, cause the flame may be small it doesn't take long for it to grow tall." Stay away from fire.

 

[Renovating]

Sin is sin, whatever the sin. For some people, the sin is more evident, for example fornication; but for some, it can be lust or hate or lie…
Some people are stronger than others in one area. For some, 1 fall is enough.
Some need more time to fight the flesh, we need to keep fighting again and again till the victory. But, I believe in the victory.
Sometimes, the mooooooore time reflects the lack of connection through prayer, Bible reading…

I mostly agree with Poohbear. The purpose is not : God knows my heart, I am just a human and I will sin anyway, but He knows that I love Him and I will repent and I am sure He will forgive me.
The purpose is : sin no more!

While I understand that the purpose is not to abuse God's grace and sin freely, without a conscious; there is still so much that become unclear to me. ( I say become unclear because the more I study and seek an understanding of the Word, things that I was once so certain of no longer make sense to me.)

I completely agree with the first part (in blue) of your post. According to the bible, a sin hierarchy does not exist and in God's eyes sin is sin. Sinful thoughts=sinful feelings= sinful actions

However, I cannot imagine every initial thought, feeling, and action I have/do being pure and holy initially. I understand that we have the power to bring impure thoughts, actions, and feelings under subjection AFTER we initially think, do, or feel them, but I do not see how after a certain point in your relationship with Christ you can begin having only pure thoughts, actions, and feelings. Although, the lady mentioned in the op may overcome her struggle with fornication, it doesn't mean that she will no longer commit any type of sinful action, or have anymore sinful thoughts and feelings for the rest of her life. From the outside looking in, we may never know if she sins again. Isn't it a matter of the heart? In most cases, you can not determine the meditation of someone's heart from the surface ( not until it manifests through an action).

It is even more perplexing to me that we are thought of as inheriting a sinful nature from Adam, but are still considered to have free will. Is it a limited free will, since we cannot choose our nature? Aren't our actions directly proportional to our nature? I would have liked to have used my free will to choose a pure nature.

Romans 7:14-25
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.



***** I'm sorry if I went too far off topic. If anyone can explain my questions, I would greatly appreciate it. I've debated posting in this thread because I do not want to offend anyone. I am only seeking understanding.erplexed

 

[Guitarhero]

I completely agree with the first part (in blue) of your post. According to the bible, a sin hierarchy does not exist and in God's eyes sin is sin. Sinful thoughts=sinful feelings= sinful actions

I'd like to address this part of your question. There are more sins than those delineated in the Decalogue or 10 Commandments but G-d made sure to alert us to the severity of these sins. There is no "hierarchy" of allowable sins...but there is certainly a severity and seriousness of certain sins, some of which lead to death. That means those sins that are not done by accident - thus, mortal sins that remove salvific grace. You have to have full conscious that these are 1)grave sins and 2)that you committed them with full knowledge. Whether you die with them or not depends upon repentance.

16If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. (1 Jno. 5:16,17)

Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned" (John 15:6).

Remaining means repentance and one can read into that that people will fail at times. The incentive to remain is the latter part of that verse because no one wants to go to the fire. And if one fails, to remain means to get back up again.

 

[Guitarhero]

For as long as a leader is weak, satan is able to throw one pebble after another in their path which will continue to trip them up. When a leader falls, it becomes a disaster and a setback in one's spiritual battle.

Here's a question: Would any of us continue to ride with a Driver who continues to disobey the laws of the road? If he was an alcoholic, unable to resist taking a drink here and there, would we allow him to continue to be the Driver of the buses, trains, airplanes, etc.? That's the message. One who is unable to stand strong, cannot lead us.

Hope this makes some sense. I'm better at this with my children and my little students in Sunday school. They have better examples than I do. They know, 'don't light a match, cause the flame may be small it doesn't take long for it to grow tall." Stay away from fire.

I agree with this wholeheartedly regarding leadership. Individually, based upon psychology of the person, habit and nature of the sin (ex., sexual that is so physical and chemical), people take the risk, driving while drunk. It's like Russian Roulette.

 

[Poohbear]

hair_rehab
thanks for your post. This is really why I created this thread and used fornication as an example. I know many woman are either involved in fornication or used to be involved in fornication. The Scripture you mentioned from Matthew also stuck out to me when studying the Bible about sin in general. From a literal sense, in order to sin, it does start with some part of your body, mainly your eyes. I'm sure there are blind people that commit sins, but when you can actually see what's going on, it's easier to fall into sin. And here's another issue with some people... even after a woman or man ends a relationship with their partner, she or he may fall back into sexual sin with either their ex or a different person.

Crown
You did a nice job laying out David's pattern of sin and how he finally came to repentance. People are quick to "take up" for sin by saying "David was a man after God's own heart and he sinned with Bathsheba" without realizing the key word "sinned"...not continually sinning.

I really feel like some of us take repentance very lightly because of the mainstream teaching of "once saved, always saved" and "past, present, AND future sins are forgiven" which will allow some Christians to indirectly think they have a license to sin, even though they KNOW sin is wrong and against God. It just makes them somewhat unconscious to sinful actions, especially if they are not experiencing consequences right away. I also think it is important that one has a Godly sorrow rather than a worldly sorrow for their sinful actions. They change because they want to please and live for God, not because of the consequences that they may suffer in the world. For instance, a thief should feel bad for stealing even before or if he never gets caught stealing.

And I agree with what you said here: "The purpose is not : God knows my heart, I am just a human and I will sin anyway, but He knows that I love Him and I will repent and I am sure He will forgive me. The purpose is : sin no more!" Those verses where Jesus instructs to "sin no more" are hardly ever taught nor emphasized in the "church".

Health&hair28
Yes, it is good to be able to discuss scripture. The Scripture you mention in Ephesians also replays in my mind as I read the Bible. For example, verse 3 mentions foolish talking and coarse jesting... I know I have done that and still do, and I can see how it is not fitting for a saint of God to do. I know when I have read that verse in the past, I would look at it like "it's no big deal to joke around...it's all in the fun", but it's not something God wants us to do. I noticed as I read a Scripture more than once and reflect on it, I start to think about how I know there was a time when I never talked foolishly, used profanity, or joked around...and that was when I was much younger, a little girl. Just me personally, I think I said my first curse word when I was in college or so. And I know I can stop using curse words in a joking way if I put my mind to it with the help of God. I think a lot of it has to do with getting rid of that "spirit" that causes the sin of speech and actually walking with the Holy Spirit. We cannot continue to walk in darkness after the light has been revealed to us.

Shimmie
Thank you for sharing your examples! And yes, your post made sense... just pretend that I am like one of those little children in your Sunday school class.

And you posted some good questions for thought about whether or not someone would continue to ride with a person who continually broke the laws of the road... The answer that most people would give is most likely NO because of the danger and risks (getting arrested, going to jail, paying money, injury, or death)! And this goes the same with sin... we put our souls in danger and risk of salvation.

authenticitymanifesting
You're right, there is no sin hierarchy. And what you said here: "I say become unclear because the more I study and seek an understanding of the Word, things that I was once so certain of no longer make sense to me" is what I am experiencing too. I still wonder about sinful thoughts and feelings as well and if we can ever live without having sinful thoughts and feelings. I ask myself Is it possible to have good and pure thoughts all the time? And what constitutes a sinful thought and feeling? Are they really sins or does it depend on the nature of the thought and feeling? Better yet, how can we know specifically? Is it based on what God reveals to each individual person? I could go on with these questions. Lol!

For example: I know anger is a feeling that is often debated about. Some say it is a sin to be angry, and some say it's not a sin to be angry, as long as you do not act on that anger as in killing someone or seeking revenge or doing something evil to that person that you are angry with. All I know is that the Bible says in Ephesians 4:26 "Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath..." To me, it is saying while you are angry do not sin, in other words, being angry isn't necessarily a sin. God is just telling us do not sin, let not the sun go down upon your wrath (which I think means do not dwell/continue in your anger/wrath). I do feel like sinful thoughts and feelings can lead to or cause someone to sin. I think that is why the Bible says we must be "bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" in 2 Corinthians 10:5.

And about your free will question... while we may have inherited sin from Adam, it does not mean we are Adam, so therefore, every one has their own free will so-to-speak, even though God is still completely sovereign. I believe we can use our free will to choose a pure nature. I think we can achieve that by delighting in the Lord and constantly reading His Word and letting God speak to us through His Word and actually internalizing His Word in our hearts and minds so we can have victory over sin.

 

[Crown]

However, I cannot imagine every initial thought, feeling, and action I have/do being pure and holy initially. I understand that we have the power to bring impure thoughts, actions, and feelings under subjection AFTER we initially think, do, or feel them, but I do not see how after a certain point in your relationship with Christ you can begin having only pure thoughts, actions, and feelings. Although, the lady mentioned in the op may overcome her struggle with fornication, it doesn't mean that she will no longer commit any type of sinful action, or have anymore sinful thoughts and feelings for the rest of her life. From the outside looking in, we may never know if she sins again. Isn't it a matter of the heart? In most cases, you can not determine the meditation of someone's heart from the surface ( not until it manifests through an action).

We are leaving in a deceptive and deluded world. Some people believe we have just to say I believe and your salvation is sealed whatever your actions. But the Bible said : you believe? Great! Bear fruits!!! It’s not an easy thing to follow the Messiah, each believer has to take a cross and sometimes the cost is very expensive, this walk cost you your old nature and its painful like an eagle soaring (but the result, the new you with the Holy Spirit, is great); this walk can cost you, for example, a job, a dear one, and even your life. The Savior said that all whose saying Lord, Lord will not enter into His kingdom. Don’t forget the parable of talents or the ten virgins (5 are virgins like the 5 others, but have not enough oil to enter)… It is serious!

Isn't it a matter of the heart? Yes it is! Jesus said :
Mat. 15.18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 15.19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies...

Stop sinning in an obvious way (outside) is half the victory, but not enough. It’s important, because you are not sinning against someone else, no possibility for offences (Mat. 18 : 7). Non believers can do it, it is called good man (or woman).
Gen. 4.7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

But the real challenge is the inside because GOD looks at the heart and it is the most important. When you stop sinning inside, you stop sinning outside : this is the victory and you can’t do it by yourself, not with the flesh.
Is it possible to have the victory? Yes!
With the Spirit of Christ AND obedience (the free will to choose to put your will/thoughts under the control of the Holy Spirit). But when you are filling a container with different areas/sections, you have to empty/clean each section before filling this section and do it to full capacity : sin no more!

[FONT=&quot]That makes the difference : choosing between good and evil (outside), or choosing LIFE (inside) and be able to do good (outside). It’s a journey![/FONT]

 

[Crown]

It is even more perplexing to me that we are thought of as inheriting a sinful nature from Adam, but are still considered to have free will. Is it a limited free will, since we cannot choose our nature? Aren't our actions directly proportional to our nature?

Don’t forget we’ve been made to be priests, worshippers, princes to rule the earth.
Freewill is the capacity to make choice as sons and daughters of GOD, different for the animals.
Adam had free will, but Adam did not choose his nature, it’s the same for us.
The challenge were/is this :
*Don’t rely on you (your nature), choose LIFE, lean on ME (and you will have all).
*The choice : I choose (prefer) knowledge for good and evil (by myself)!
*Fall and corruption of the flesh.
*Bridge : Messiah
*Don’t rely on you (your nature), choose LIFE, lean on ME (and you will have all but with pain to breakdown the sinful nature).

If someone chooses to become a soldier, what would he do?
Acknowledge the call, believe in the army, register, believe that he can be a good soldier, know the rules, practice to be in better shape as possible and to become one in his mind with the system, obey, fight, do nothing that might tarnish what he is representing (do good as a soldier), talk to others about the organization, put his trust in his superior.
Do the same as a follower of the Messiah : the soldier is you (disciples), the army is the Kingdom of the Most High, the rules are the Word of God, Christ, testified in the Bible, the Superior is the Holy Spirit.
The Bible is also a testimony of these men and women who made this choice. It is not impossible :
Lu. 11.13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

I would have liked to have used my free will to choose a pure nature.

I think your desire is pure metaphysics!
Free will comes after conscience, and conscience comes after nature.
Gen. 2.7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

ETA : (A little confusing!) What I mean, you could not use your free will to choose to born with a pure nature. But, you can choose to put your free will, right now, under the control and the power of the Holy Spirit and have a pure nature because of HIM.

 

[LoveisYou]

Yes, but I would STRONGLY advise against it. I used to be that person and it opened the door to many other sins in my life. In addition, I felt so guilty and unworthy of His grace that I completely got off the Christian path for years. One sin led to another that led to another until one day I couldn't call myself saved anymore. But thank God for Jesus, because recently I re-dedicated my life to Christ. The soul ties prayer posted in this forum was right on time for me.

 

[BeautifulFlower]

I used to be that girl and I will definitely tell you this...its almost impossible to maintain the same level of communion with God when you are fornicator. You may be able to put up a good front for others but when its just you and God in your room alone at night, your prayer life is not the same. You keep sinning but your lifeline to the Father is corrupt.

But yes, I was still saved (have salvation and not going to hell) but my life was not transformed. I was living in my sin and ignoring as much of the Word as I could to avoid confronting my issues.

But if you belong to the Lord he will encompass you and bring you back home and welcome you with open arms.

 

[crwnandglory]

I am saved.

This week I have probably caused tension with another person, acted arrogantly by trusting my wisdom over God's, or thought too highly of another person. I know for a fact that I have replayed, imagined, repeated and said things that are not pleasing to God just in the past 10 minutes. Every act that I listed above is evidence of my sinful nature (Galatians 5:19). Evidence that my flesh still lives and sometimes I fall victim to it. However, it is no match for the grace and mercy of God and the power of prayer and repentance.

I sin and yet I am still saved just like the sister in the example.

To me sin is separation from God and His will, it does not matter if that takes form in idolatry or fornication. Most people would not question the salvation of a person that had a fit of rage after a provoking experience or looked longingly at the woman across the street with the pair of boots that she has been saving for and yet they are both acts of a sinful nature. Sin is sin. All of our "holiness" is like a filthy rag to God. That is why we should be quick to praise Him and repent, we need His mercy and grace even when we think we are doing "good."

God is the only one that can save and therefore the only one who can judge (James 4:12).

 

[BeautifulFlower]

This is so true.

I am reminded of the story of King David and Bathsheba. When the Lord reprimended him through the prophet Nathan, the Lord repeated twice "you have depised me". Sure he called out his sin but it was less about the actually act and more about the turning away from his commands in selfish pursuit of his desires. Pride is always the root of sin, always. So yes sin is sin and its all deserving of death.

I am saved.

This week I have probably caused tension with another person, acted arrogantly by trusting my wisdom over God's, or thought too highly of another person. I know for a fact that I have replayed, imagined, repeated and said things that are not pleasing to God just in the past 10 minutes. Every act that I listed above is evidence of my sinful nature (Galatians 5:19). Evidence that my flesh still lives and sometimes I fall victim to it. However, it is no match for the grace and mercy of God and the power of prayer and repentance.

I sin and yet I am still saved just like the sister in the example.

To me sin is separation from God and His will, it does not matter if that takes form in idolatry or fornication. Most people would not question the salvation of a person that had a fit of rage after a provoking experience or looked longingly at the woman across the street with the pair of boots that she has been saving for and yet they are both acts of a sinful nature. Sin is sin. All of our "holiness" is like a filthy rag to God. That is why we should be quick to praise Him and repent, we need His mercy and grace even when we think we are doing "good."

God is the only one that can save and therefore the only one who can judge (James 4:12).

 

[nathansgirl1908]

It's really not about determining whether another person is saved or not... I said this was purely a scenario. Geez! This isn't about a person or other people I'm looking at in real life. And I'm certainly not having this "nit-picky s/he isn't saved" attitude. I'm actually asking SINCERE questions here. If you really want to know why I ask these questions is for MY OWN SAKE as it pertains to knowing if I am saved based on any sin I may commit.

It's easy for me or any Christian to be like "How am I doing, Lord?" and feel like everything is going good even when I'm really doing wrong. Why do we have to "shut up" when we have sincere questions about what the Bible is saying to us? That's the problem with the "church" today. Why do we have to accept "NO ONE WILL EVER STOP SINNING", but yet everyone is quick to judge someone that commits a sin they consider "big" such as fornication, adultery, murder, and the like? Are we all just gonna be living hypocrites for the rest of our lives? Huh, Volver Alma Gitana?

That's why I asked you if you believed in Universal Salvation, that no matter how much we sin, we all gonna be saved in the end just for believing in Jesus. I don't think so. Why would God put all those verses in there about being holy, righteous, pure, and perfect? He never said Jesus will be the only perfect sinless person in the world. Jesus just happened to be perfect and sinless because He was God in the flesh. I believe we can be made perfect AFTER giving up and repenting of all sin.

I believe we can only be made perfect after death. And I honestly don't understand why this question keeps coming up. Really reading the Word and taking it all together, synthesis basically, gives the answers to your questions. you should NOT continue in the same sin. And I don't think the Bible actually sad that we will all be saved just for believing in God. There is much more to it than that.

I genuinely wonder if your confusion comes from listening to others instead of gleaning your own understanding. You have said numerous times that you read the Bible, but if you read it, then why are you having such a hard time finding the answers? And why aren't you praying to God for discernment and understanding on this stuff? I just don't get it. NO ONE will ever get clarification on these issues until they seek Him and His Word, clearing their minds of what others have to say.

I also think it is unsafe and unwise to try to use others to figure out where you stand with God.

 

[LilMissSunshine5]

John 3:16- For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

That is case closed for me. God will judge people's hearts. That is not my job. I have enough work to do in myself than to worry about who is saved and who isn't. I believe in the saving power of the blood of Jesus and that is enough to save me! No footnotes or addendums. I can't lose my salvation because I didn't earn it. God gave it to me as a gift and because of His grace and mercy, He saved me anyway. The guidelines He gives us (His Word) are so we can develop a deep relationship with Him because God knows sin damages our ability to communicate with Him. I accepted Jesus in my heart when I was 6, but at 30, my life is showing so much more fruit than it used to. Does that mean I wasn't saved during those years that I wasn't growing? No, it means that my relationship with God is currently prospering unlike before when it wasn't. I was always saved, but salvation is just the BEGINNING of the Christian journey...I want to serve him wholeheartedly, become the woman He designed me to be and make my Heavenly Father proud! I was a spiritual baby before, but I got tired of milk I wanted solid foods and meat! Now that I am spending time with Him, reading His word, fasting and tithing, I am growing so fast. Some people stay an infant in Jesus forever, but He desires for us to learn and grow, use our talents and bear greater fruit when we abide in Him.