"If you Sin, you are NOT Saved"?

[Renovating]

Poohbear- great discussion as always.

Let's say you have a bad habit- like kicking the chair in front of you. You do it without realizing that you are hurting the person sitting in the chair. Once you find out, you are sorry- you ask forgiveness and try your best to stop kicking the chair. You may slip up sometimes because it was a habit and when you do, you apologize. But you are genuinely working to change because you acknowledge that it's wrong and you're sorry.

This is different from continuing to kick the chair because you're really not sorry or purposely kicking the chair because your intent is to cause harm. If you have ever been the person sitting in the chair, you might be able to tell the difference from how often you're getting kicked.

Human beings can see a change- the result of us being born again into God's family but only God knows our hearts. That's why only He is the judge of how many times we mess up or where our heart is focused. Only He sees the struggle that we go through to overcome our bad habits- the combined effort (His and ours) it takes to avoid kicking that chair just one less time.

That was a perfect metaphor, because when something is habit, we do it without thinking it through and it becomes "just something we do".
Even if you are truly sorry for kicking the chair, since it's a habit, you could easily find yourself kicking it again, but you would make a conscious effort to stop. Thanks. That made it clear for me.

 

[Renovating]

The thing is, if you are really truly sorry, you wouldn't kick that chair again.

A lot of people will say certain sins they commit are habits or mistakes. But God takes sin seriously and clearly speaks against sin. It's written plain out in the bible.

Like for instance, a man has a wife, sleeps with another woman, and let's say he admits this to his wife without getting caught, apologizes, ask for forgiveness. His wife forgives him. A year later, he sleeps with another woman. How can you say he was truly sorry (no matter how long he went without committing adultery again)? He wanted to do that. That's a deliberate action that he knew was wrong.

I know that case is more serious than someone kicking a chair, but people will sugarcoat sins into being mistakes and habits that we do every now and then. How can we get around that?

I think that we all know that the sins we commit are wrong, but I think the confusion arises with sin because humans have a sin hierachy, whereas God sees sin as sin.

What's high on your sin hierarchy may be low on someone else's and that's why sin hierarchies are dangerous. Placing one higher (more serious) than another makes it easy for someone to excuse their own, IMO.

Yes, I lied but at least I didn't commit adultery.
Yes, I committed adultery, but at least I didn't kill anyone.



I also wanted to add that it is possible that giving in to his sexual desires could have been a habit for him UNTIL, he decided to repent and try to live according to the word.

***** Disclaimer: Poohbear, I am not trying to offend you in anyway, just adding to the discussion. Thanks.

 

[Poohbear]

I think that we all know that the sins we commit are wrong, but I think the confusion arises with sin because humans have a sin hierachy, whereas God sees sin as sin.

What's high on your sin hierarchy may be low on someone else's and that's why sin hierarchies are dangerous. Placing one higher (more serious) than another makes it easy for someone to excuse their own, IMO.

Yes, I lied but at least I didn't commit adultery.
Yes, I committed adultery, but at least I didn't kill anyone.



I also wanted to add that it is possible that giving in to his sexual desires could have been a habit for him UNTIL, he decided to repent and try to live according to the word.

***** Disclaimer: Poohbear, I am not trying to offend you in anyway, just adding to the discussion. Thanks.

I agree with you. I don't have a sin hierarchy either because all sin is against God. That's why I shared that example. I said that case is more serious because that's how it's perceived by most Christians. Me personally, I see all sin as the same whether you gossip or whether you rape someone.

What does it mean to "try to live according to the Word?" Doesn't that mean you "suffer from not committing sins that tempt you"? "Trying" does not mean "giving in to sins every once in awhile".... erplexed

 

[Poohbear]

Here is a few other points the woman has made to me. I'm paraphrasing what she said:

A lot of people want to use our imperfection and human nature/body and being born into sin as an excuse to sin.

If we believe and have faith in Jesus, we are "perfect in spirit".

The reason why humans are not perfect is because of this example: Let's say you take a test and get answer a question incorrectly. That shows our human nature. Just because we missed the answer on the test doesn't mean we sinned.

Being perfect in spirit means we no longer desire to sin and do not yield to temptation.

The purpose of Jesus coming to Earth as God in the flesh to dwell among us was to show us how to live as a human being without sin. He didn't come just to show his divinity and power. He was showing us how to live sinless in an evil world in a human body.

 

[Renovating]

I agree with you. I don't have a sin hierarchy either because all sin is against God. That's why I shared that example. I said that case is more serious because that's how it's perceived by most Christians. Me personally, I see all sin as the same whether you gossip or whether you rape someone.

What does it mean to "try to live according to the Word?" Doesn't that mean you "suffer from not committing sins that tempt you"? "Trying" does not mean "giving in to sins every once in awhile".... erplexed

To me it means Phil 3:13-14:
13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

 

[CoilyFields]

We also have to remember that God refers to those Christians who are saved but live as sinners as backslidders. A backslidder is one who knows the redemption of God but chooses to practice sin.

I believe that practicing sin is making up in your mind that although you know what is right to do, you are still going to choose to do wrong repeatedly...as in a lifestyle of sin. Completely disregarding the word of God. Now exactly how many TIMES a christian must do a sin for it to be considered practicing...i believe that that is strictly a heart matter and only God can judge because he knows our hearts.

 

[Poohbear]

Thank you for posting this is an interesting point to ponder. It definitely causes me to evaluate the sin in my life and how God thinks of me and my testimony of Jesus.

However, I do think it is impossible to say you are without sin. Our very flesh is full of sinful desires and we will have this body until the day we die. However, like many of the men in OT and NT, God expects us to live by faith, follow his commands, and live lives pleasing to him. However, WHEN (not if) we do fall, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us of unrighteousness.

God is a just and righteous God but he is also a loving and forgiving God. We are all a work in progress.

I believe to say YOU do not sin carries an air of self-righteous because Christianity is not about following rules. Its about a relationship with Jesus Christ and God giving you the mercy and grace to live free of sinful bondage.

She said if you truly believe in Jesus Christ and truly have the Word of God in your heart, you will have the power to resist your fleshly desires and not give in to temptation. She said in order to live free of sinful bondage, you must stop sinning.

 

[Poohbear]

Being blameless has more to do with our heart intentions and our appearance before men.

In Luke 1:6 the bible describes Johns parents as being blameless. Below is the explanation of what that means from Matthew Henrys Commentary:

They were universal in their obedience; not that they never did in any thing come short of their duty, but it was their constant care and endeavor to come up to it. (4.) Herein, though they were not sinless, yet they were blameless; nobody could charge them with any open scandalous sin; they lived honestly and inoffensively, as ministers and their families are in a special manner concerned to do, that the ministry be not blamed in their blame.

So I see being blameless as not never falling into a pothole...but being constantly on the lookout for the potholes and studiously avoiding them as much as you can...especially the BIG ones you can see a mile away and could cause not only you to crash but a pile-up with others affecting their drive. And as you get closer in your walk with God (sanctification) your sight should improve exponentially and though you will not be sinless, you will be blameless.

Wouldn't the bolded part in the above quote mean "cautious" rather than "blameless"???

 

[Poohbear]

We also have to remember that God refers to those Christians who are saved but live as sinners as backslidders. A backslidder is one who knows the redemption of God but chooses to practice sin.

I believe that practicing sin is making up in your mind that although you know what is right to do, you are still going to choose to do wrong repeatedly...as in a lifestyle of sin. Completely disregarding the word of God. Now exactly how many TIMES a christian must do a sin for it to be considered practicing...i believe that that is strictly a heart matter and only God can judge because he knows our hearts.

But are backsliders truly saved? Will God continue to grant mercy on the backslider? Check out this verse:

Jeremiah 15:6
You have rejected me," declares the LORD. "You keep on backsliding. So I will lay hands on you and destroy you; I can no longer show compassion.

 

[CoilyFields]

But are backsliders truly saved? Will God continue to grant mercy on the backslider? Check out this verse:

Jeremiah 15:6
You have rejected me," declares the LORD. "You keep on backsliding. So I will lay hands on you and destroy you; I can no longer show compassion.

Passage Jeremiah 3:14:

14Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

At this begining of Jeremiah he is pleading for his backslidden children to return to him. In the verse you quoted it he is now fed up with their continuous backslidding and will no longer have mercy. Him calling them his children signifies that they belong to him and turned away...meaning they were saved and backslid.

The question that we cannot answer is how much backslidding/practicing sin does a person have to do in order to feel this kind of wrath from God. As I said before, I think that is something only God can judge and that it will apply individually according to our hearts.

 

[Renovating]

But are backsliders truly saved? Will God continue to grant mercy on the backslider? Check out this verse:

Jeremiah 15:6
You have rejected me," declares the LORD. "You keep on backsliding. So I will lay hands on you and destroy you; I can no longer show compassion.

The book of Jeremiah is in the old testament. I've always thought the old testament was based on the law and works, whereas the new testament was based on God's mercy which endures FOREVER. So to the bolded, I say yes.

 

[CoilyFields]

Wouldn't the bolded part in the above quote mean "cautious" rather than "blameless"???

You can use the word cautious if you like, but the Bible uses blameless. I think in this context they mean essentially the same thing. To be on the lookout (or vigilant and sober as the word says) so that we do not practice sin nor do those things that will negatively affect the faith of those around us.
If you are being cautious that means that in your heart you truly want to do the right thing and are taking the necessary steps to ensure you do the right thing. Looking out for potholes...being a skilled enough driver to actually avoid them...then actually avoid them...then not taking that pothole-ridden road again. (Not like saying I wanna be sexually pure but Im going to spend the night at my boyfriends house-God knows our hearts lol)