Is there such thing as a Saved "Christian" Fornicator?

[Poohbear]

Scenario:

Let's say this Christian girl professed a faith in Christ at a young age and was then baptized. She attended church every Sunday and was very involved with the church. She read her bible, prayed, and even taught other people in the church. Then she one day experimented with sexual intercourse at the end of her high school years. As time goes on into her 20's, she continues this behavior, tries to stop and even feels bad about what she is doing every time, and prays and confesses her sin to God over and over for forgiveness. Days, weeks, or months could go by, and she would have sex again. She was never promiscuous per se (as in having multiple random sex partners), she would just always have sex with her boyfriend only. During this whole time, she is still heavily involved in the church, teaching others about the Bible, and never ceases to pray, and still claims to believe in Jesus as her personal Lord and Savior.

Is this woman still considered a born-again Christian that is SAVED on her way to Heaven after she dies? Why or why not?

If so, then wouldn't you say everyone that claims to be a Christian and still commits sin is going to Heaven no matter what they say or do?

If not, wouldn't you say that you must stop sinning completely in order to be saved?

And if you don't believe you must stop sinning completely in order to be saved, then how can you judge this woman as unsaved?

Please share your thoughts...

 

[dicapr]

I would consider her saved. I only say this is because she is struggling with this sin. She goes through periods of celibacy only to fall into temptation. This is not the same as knowing it is a sin and not fighting the flesh. Perfection (becoming sinless) is a journey with God. Others struggle with sins for longer periods of times than others. The key is to continue to strengthen your relationship with God to finally be able to overcome temptation. Hopefully she will find a boyfriend who believes as she does so that when she is weak she will have some encouragement. That may be part of the problem. She is dating men who are not encouraging her spiritual walk and when she is weak they take advantage of her.

 

[chelseatiara]

that sounds familiar...what i did was get re-baptized to profess my faith and broke up with my boyfriend. It was hard (and recent) but he is supportive and understood that it be better if we were friends. Now we are back "together" but the is only getting a very small percentage of my time. By limiting our time together and exploring my relationship with God it has taught me to be strong and not be led into temptation when i know i am weak.

but back to the subject we as people can not judge someone as saved or unsaved but .... the bible says if you give up this life you will have eternal life; and their is no way to completely stop sinning but if she humbles herself and gives up what is causing her to sin she will learn to be stronger and live her life as a "saved" woman.

 

[Poohbear]

I would consider her saved. I only say this is because she is struggling with this sin. She goes through periods of celibacy only to fall into temptation. This is not the same as knowing it is a sin and not fighting the flesh. Perfection (becoming sinless) is a journey with God. Others struggle with sins for longer periods of times than others. The key is to continue to strengthen your relationship with God to finally be able to overcome temptation. Hopefully she will find a boyfriend who believes as she does so that when she is weak she will have some encouragement. That may be part of the problem. She is dating men who are not encouraging her spiritual walk and when she is weak they take advantage of her.

Can you explain how this is not the same as knowing it is a sin and not fighting the flesh? The girl clearly knows that fornication is a sin.

And let's say this girl is not being taken advantage of... she enjoys having sex with her boyfriend... even though she feels bad about doing it because it's a sin against God...

 

[Crown]

And let's say this girl is not being taken advantage of... she enjoys having sex with her boyfriend... even though she feels bad about doing it because it's a sin against God...

If she continues to fight with a sincere heart : pray and fast, not put herself in danger (in a situation where it's easy to do this sin)... her victory will be a testimony for others.
Mat. 5.30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

 

[Crown]

Is this woman still considered a born-again Christian that is SAVED on her way to Heaven after she dies? Why or why not?
Ps. 51.11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 51.12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.


If so, then wouldn't you say everyone that claims to be a Christian and still commits sin is going to Heaven no matter what they say or do?
First :
The once saved, always saved is for GOD because He knows. From a human view, it is all mixed and all claim to be :
Mat. 13.24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 13.25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 13.26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 13.27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 13.28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 13.29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 13.30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Second :
We don’t know the time and plan of God. Someone can still commits sin today and sincerely repent 1 hour before death. Going to heaven for yourself is by faith. Going to heaven for others is not your (general) business. The Father knows who will be or not.

If not, wouldn't you say that you must stop sinning completely in order to be saved?
1Jn. 1.8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1.9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1.10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

2.1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2.2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


And if you don't believe you must stop sinning completely in order to be saved, then how can you judge this woman as unsaved?
Mat. 7.1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 7.2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 7.3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 7.4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 7.5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Please share your thoughts...

She feels bad about that sin? Must be something... Do you think all fornicators feel bad about doing fornication because it is a sin? I don't think so!
Don’t look at others, it’s not your life, you can just pray for them and give advice if they ask for.
But you can do great things for YOU (general).

 

[Guitarhero]

Is this woman still considered a born-again Christian that is SAVED on her way to Heaven after she dies? Why or why not?

In my opinion, nobody knows who is going to go to heaven because that's God's realm and decision. However, we can hope that, by following the rules, we will attain heaven. With that said and continuing to be IMHO, if she confesses, then she's a person who listens to God. She has an habitual sin. Incidentally, it's mortal sin. But she confesses it and regains salvific grace according to scripture. Venial sin doesn't remove salvific grace, but it does damage your relationship with God. The diff. is in the seriousness of the offense, commmitted with full knowledge and volition.

So, yes, she is a christian. I don't know about born-again and whatnot...I just know "christian" and if the person is baptised, s/he has been reborn in spirit. The key is walking the walk and confessing sin, making a turn around. Habitual sins are difficult and only God knows the heart but people who do not follow God do not confess their sins in an effort to turn them around.

For example, prayers I go by...

"I confess to Almighty God,and to your my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do....." and it goes on with the BVM intercession that I won't post


After confession:

"My God, I am sorry for my sins with all my heart.
In choosing to do wrong and failing to do good,
I have sinned against you whom I should love above all things.
I firmly intend, with your help, to do penance, to sin no more, and to avoid whatever leads me to sin.
Our Saviour Jesus Christ, suffered and died for us.
In his name, my God, have mercy"


Mercy is built into the salvation that Christ offers. Why? Because man sins and continues to sin. He has sinned since the first sin and all that are born have the propensity to sin. People sin, whether they love God or not. If God only would offer final salvation to the sinless, He wouldn't have built in confession nor forgiveness. And I am painfully aware of those who do not consider me to be a christian because of 1)religion and 2)my orientation. I don't care...I only answer to Him. The proofs are there...that's what I go by.

 

[Shimmie]

that sounds familiar...what i did was get re-baptized to profess my faith and broke up with my boyfriend. It was hard (and recent) but he is supportive and understood that it be better if we were friends. Now we are back "together" but the is only getting a very small percentage of my time. By limiting our time together and exploring my relationship with God it has taught me to be strong and not be led into temptation when i know i am weak.

but back to the subject we as people can not judge someone as saved or unsaved but .... the bible says if you give up this life you will have eternal life; and their is no way to completely stop sinning but if she humbles herself and gives up what is causing her to sin she will learn to be stronger and live her life as a "saved" woman.

:nothworthy:



Excellent message.

I have but a few things to add to the thread:

The 'prodigal' son. He 'fell' away from his father, but later returned to his father with a repentant heart.

In reference to the young lady, I would definitely that she is still a Christian, however, she should not be teaching or in any type of leadership (teaching is leading), until she has completely surrenedered this struggle over to the Lord.

And there are so many reasons why. Such as:

The more she yields unto this temptation, the more it grows. What if she were to become pregnant which would drop her testimony before her students and the Church.

What if she and her boyfriend are 'discovered' spending the night with one another [it's obvious when a couple is having sex -- their body language and behaviour tells on them; especially if they are surrounded by those in the Church? 'You' can tell; something about 'them' gives it away. :scratchch: Another drop in her testimony.

She cannot stand before her students with this in her life. She has to have been delivered from it; for how else can she be used to minister to them faithfully?

She has to come 'clean', meaning she cannot teach what she is not living.

:Rose:

 

[Poohbear]

She feels bad about that sin? Must be something... Do you think all fornicators feel bad about doing fornication because it is a sin? I don't think so!
Don’t look at others, it’s not your life, you can just pray for them and give advice if they ask for.
But you can do great things for YOU (general).

Thank you for your posts.

And yeah, I agree that I know not all fornicators feel bad about having premarital sex.

By the way, I know you said "YOU (general)", but I just wanted to say that my initial post was purely a scenario or example of a Christian committing a sin that they know is wrong. I'm personally not looking at someone else life or anything.

 

[fifi134]

You can be a born-again Christian who sins. There's nothing else you can be. It is impossible for the Christian not to sin, because the Bible says in Romans 3:10 that "there is no one righteous, no not one". Verse 12 says "there is no one who does good". God knows that although we've been given the power not to sin, we will still struggle and slip up sometimes. Despite the fact that the Bible says there is no temptation that we can't overcome, we are still living in a sinful world and are easily influenced by what we see/hear. This does not make sin excusable, but because we are saved, we have the ability to come before God with a sincere heart and repent from our sins, and be forgiven.

This is different from habitual sin, where an unsaved person continues their daily life committing sin without regret or remorse. When we as Christians sin, that guilt we feel that leads us to the Cross is the Holy Spirit convicting us. The unsaved person does not have that, and so they continue to sin.

 

[Guitarhero]

You can be a born-again Christian who sins. There's nothing else you can be. It is impossible for the Christian not to sin, because the Bible says in Romans 3:10 that "there is no one righteous, no not one". Verse 12 says "there is no one who does good". God knows that although we've been given the power not to sin, we will still struggle and slip up sometimes. Despite the fact that the Bible says there is no temptation that we can't overcome, we are still living in a sinful world and are easily influenced by what we see/hear. This does not make sin excusable, but because we are saved, we have the ability to come before God with a sincere heart and repent from our sins, and be forgiven.

This is different from habitual sin, where an unsaved person continues their daily life committing sin without regret or remorse. When we as Christians sin, that guilt we feel that leads us to the Cross is the Holy Spirit convicting us. The unsaved person does not have that, and so they continue to sin.

I respectfully disagree on habitual sin. It has a lot to do with your psychology. One can absolutely have an habitual sin and be a christian struggling through it. In fact, christians with habitual sins face a lot of remorse but continue sinning through their faulty nature. What defines them as christians is that they have remorse but find the sin incredibly difficult to overcome fully.

Some say that Paul's discourse was overlapping the original Law with the new Law, comparing the old nature and the inability to avoid sin with the new one Christ gives that makes it possible to avoid it and that he wasn't discussing a personal habitual sin. But there are many levels of understanding in scripture and it could apply to a person with an habitual sin under Christ who gives the ability to avoid sin. Habitual sins, mostly sexual in nature, can be formed over a lifetime and make it difficult to overcome.

Romans
7:14-20 - After all, the Law itself is really concerned with the spiritual - it is I who am carnal, and have sold my soul to sin. In practice, what happens? My own behaviour baffles me. For I find myself not doing what I really want to do but doing what I really loathe. Yet surely if I do things that I really don't want to do, I am admitting that I really agree with the Law. But it cannot be said that "I" am doing them at all - it must be sin that has made its home in my nature. (And indeed, I know from experience that the carnal side of my being can scarcely be called the home of good!) I often find that I have the will to do good, but not the power. That is, I don't accomplish the good I set out to do, and the evil I don't really want to do I find I am always doing. Yet if I do things that I don't really want to do then it is not, I repeat, "I" who do them, but the sin which has made its home within me.

The good news is that we are no longer slaves to sin without a way out of it but it might take time to completely get rid of it due to one's individual nature.

 

[Poohbear]

You can be a born-again Christian who sins. There's nothing else you can be. It is impossible for the Christian not to sin, because the Bible says in Romans 3:10 that "there is no one righteous, no not one". Verse 12 says "there is no one who does good". God knows that although we've been given the power not to sin, we will still struggle and slip up sometimes. Despite the fact that the Bible says there is no temptation that we can't overcome, we are still living in a sinful world and are easily influenced by what we see/hear. This does not make sin excusable, but because we are saved, we have the ability to come before God with a sincere heart and repent from our sins, and be forgiven.

This is different from habitual sin, where an unsaved person continues their daily life committing sin without regret or remorse. When we as Christians sin, that guilt we feel that leads us to the Cross is the Holy Spirit convicting us. The unsaved person does not have that, and so they continue to sin.

Habitual sin is sin committed out of habit. The person is used to doing the sin. The Bible mentions nothing about habitual sin. The word "habitual" doesn't even appear in the Bible. All sin, regardless of how man categorizes it, is against God.

If an unsaved person is someone that continues their daily life committing sin without regret or remorse, then why do a lot of "saved" folks say we sin daily and we must repent daily? Aren't they really unsaved? Do they really feel regret and remorse for their sins if they continue to do the sin and actually enjoy the sin?

It just doesn't make sense when people say "Now this doesn't make an excuse to sin" when people actually are making excuses to sin. People wouldn't have to say that if they weren't making excuses for it.

Guilt should lead a true saved Christian to stop the sin, not commit it every now and then, or habitually. All sins that you KNOW for a fact are wrong are done intentionally and willfully. There's no way around it. Like this scenario, this girl knows that fornication is wrong and has read it in her Bible, but yet, still commits the sin because she enjoys it, but yet, feels bad about it ONLY because the Bible says it's wrong. So she is a born-again saved Christian because she feels bad about it only because it's wrong according to the Bible?

What's the difference in a believing Christian feeling bad for doing wrong and a nonbeliever (like an Atheist) feeling bad for doing wrong? Is God working through both of them? How can we tell the difference between a Godly sorrow and a worldly sorrow in this case?

 

[Poohbear]

:nothworthy:



Excellent message.

I have but a few things to add to the thread:

The 'prodigal' son. He 'fell' away from his father, but later returned to his father with a repentant heart.

In reference to the young lady, I would definitely that she is still a Christian, however, she should not be teaching or in any type of leadership (teaching is leading), until she has completely surrenedered this struggle over to the Lord.

And there are so many reasons why. Such as:

The more she yields unto this temptation, the more it grows. What if she were to become pregnant which would drop her testimony before her students and the Church.

What if she and her boyfriend are 'discovered' spending the night with one another [it's obvious when a couple is having sex -- their body language and behaviour tells on them; especially if they are surrounded by those in the Church? 'You' can tell; something about 'them' gives it away. :scratchch: Another drop in her testimony.

She cannot stand before her students with this in her life. She has to have been delivered from it; for how else can she be used to minister to them faithfully?

She has to come 'clean', meaning she cannot teach what she is not living.

:Rose:

I agree that she should step down from teaching, but how can ANY "Christian" teach against sin if you believe all true Christians sin and still sin as long as they live? No one is really practicing what they are teaching/preaching. What's the use if we all still gonna sin anyway?

Getting pregnant or getting caught sleeping with her boyfriend is more of a concern for how she looks to other people and to the world... Shouldn't the concern be about what God sees, thinks, and knows, and not the world?

 

[Guitarhero]

You have to live by faith. Just as one cannot fathom the greatness of God, one can neither fathom the depths of His mercy. Man is more than spirit, he is flesh and that contains his psychology. It's the whole person of a fallen nature that God is addressing. Mercy is built into His salvation. He knows people are going to sin. And, yes, when people commit the same sins over and over again (getting better at resisting but still falling at times), if they ask God for forgiveness, then that is definitely remorse and sorrow. Otherwise, you'd say, "forget it." I don't comprehend why this is so confusing all the time. Not judging you...but this issue is a very difficult one, I've noticed. I hope you get your answer that you can put into your heart and know it as truth Not indicating you, but other situations...people who cannot understand this issue of sin often don't know how to forgive themselves. I've been there.

 

[PinkPebbles]

Poohbear -

This is a great discussion. I have been where your friend is now. And if most of us young Christian women be real about it, most of have been there or will probably face this temptation when a man comes into our lives.


I knew what I was doing with my ex-boyfriend was wrong. I struggled, felt convicted, remorseful, repented, and confessed. I used to have talks with him about how I’m displeasing God. We would stop for a season but subtly the cycle would begin again.


I continued to pray and seek God. I knew the word and God allowed some things to happen so I can choose who I’m going serve – God or my ex-boyfriend? The choice was mine and I chose God. I had to leave that man alone because we were unequally yoked. He didn’t have a problem or a conviction with pre-marital sex but I did, therefore; I had to walk away.


I was good enough to sleep with but wasn’t good enough to marry…that is a serious problem. That showed me right there that he is out for himself. He is not concerned about me, let alone my salvation. So why I’m giving him my soul, body, and mind!?! Why I’m serving this man!?!


I shared this story to say if we all take a look within ourselves and be real we know why we won’t stop having premarital sex that is considered sin in the eyes of God.


Most Christian women who continue premarital sex with their boyfriend after conviction does so out of fear. They fear if they stop their boyfriend will leave. And that’s the bottom line. I don’t think the situation is that deep; it’s a choice that most of us will have to face. It only becomes deep and complicated when we engage in things that we know is wrong in the eyes of God. That’s when the battle between the flesh and the spirit will continue to be ongoing.

 

[Poohbear]

You have to live by faith. Just as one cannot fathom the greatness of God, one can neither fathom the depths of His mercy. Man is more than spirit, he is flesh and that contains his psychology. It's the whole person of a fallen nature that God is addressing. Mercy is built into His salvation. He knows people are going to sin. And, yes, when people commit the same sins over and over again (getting better at resisting but still falling at times), if they ask God for forgiveness, then that is definitely remorse and sorrow. Otherwise, you'd say, "forget it." I don't comprehend why this is so confusing all the time. Not judging you...but this issue is a very difficult one, I've noticed. I hope you get your answer that you can put into your heart and know it as truth Not indicating you, but other situations...people who cannot understand this issue of sin often don't know how to forgive themselves. I've been there.

Thanks Volver Alma Gitana, but do you believe in the doctrine of Apocatastasis (Universal Salvation)? In the end, God will save everyone, right? That's the only conclusion I can come to whenever I hear people say "true Christians still sin and will sin until they physically die".

I see where you said some people cannot understand the issue of sin because they don't know how to forgive themselves. Well, how can someone forgive themselves if they continue to do the same sin over and over again, that they KNOW is wrong and against God, His Will, and His Word?

I know you are not judging me... even if you were, I would not mind it. It's confusing because I've been reading my bible a whole lot lately, and I can actually see where all different Christian views are coming from with the issue of sin and salvation. For me personally, I am concerned about my faith and beliefs... I don't know what to believe anymore.

 

[Guitarhero]

Thanks Volver Alma Gitana, but do you believe in the doctrine of Apocatastasis (Universal Salvation)? In the end, God will save everyone, right? That's the only conclusion I can come to whenever I hear people say "true Christians still sin and will sin until they physically die".

I see where you said some people cannot understand the issue of sin because they don't know how to forgive themselves. Well, how can someone forgive themselves if they continue to do the same sin over and over again, that they KNOW is wrong and against God, His Will, and His Word?

I know you are not judging me... even if you were, I would not mind it. It's confusing because I've been reading my bible a whole lot lately, and I can actually see where all different Christian views are coming from with the issue of sin and salvation. For me personally, I am concerned about my faith and beliefs... I don't know what to believe anymore.

But you are definitely on the right path, seeking truth. Stay on it!!!! Don't ever leave it. As far as universal salvation, scripture speaks of spiritual death and apocatatasis is not taught in my church as it's heresy.

PinkPebbles

That's a good observation on why most christian women have pre-marital sex with their boyfriends. I can say that my pre-marital sex days (even tho I was raised to believe it was wrong) later in college life was because.....it felt good. I didn't have a boyfriend lol.

 

[Poohbear]

Here are some scriptures from the New Testament that stick out to me...

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21)

"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21-8)

"Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15)

These verses are telling me that God does not reward unrighteousness. He doesn't put any exceptions in there like "unless you believe in Jesus" or "unless you don't do it all the time" or "unless you feel sorry about what you do over and over again" or "unless you pray for forgiveness every time you do this sin". I can't see how someone can stand up and say "I'm a fornicator, and I believe in Jesus and I'm a Christian saved by the Grace of God." Now I can see if someone said "I WAS a fornicator" or "I USED TO BE a fornicator" as being a Christian who's saved, but not a person living as a current fornicator.

 

[Raspberry]

^^^ Poohbear - You may benefit greatly from reading the Amplified version of the Bible (focuses on greater extrapolation of Greek and Hebrew words) and checking out Greek/Hebrew dictionaries and concordances. The Greek language for example has very complex shades of meaning and it helps immensely to search out what original nouns and verbs mean.

For me, just reading the Amplified on a regular basis had drastically changed the meaning I derive from many passages.

 

[Poohbear]

^^^ Poohbear - You may benefit greatly from reading the Amplified version of the Bible (focuses on greater extrapolation of Greek and Hebrew words) and checking out Greek/Hebrew dictionaries and concordances. The Greek language for example has very complex shades of meaning and it helps immensely to search out what original nouns and verbs mean.

For me, just reading the Amplified on a regular basis had drastically changed the meaning I derive from many passages.

Thank you for the suggestion, however, I have read verses in the Amplified Bible before as I have been studying the Bible. Another lady recommended it to me several months ago, so I decided to check it out. After reading certain passages in it, I feel like it "sugar-coats" the true meaning of the word.

For example:

King James Version Bible of 1 John 3:6-9
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Amplified Bible of 1 John 3:6-9
6No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him--deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him].

7Boys (lads), let no one deceive and lead you astray. He who practices righteousness [who is upright, conforming to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action, living a consistently conscientious life] is righteous, even as He is righteous.

8[But] he who commits sin [who practices evildoing] is of the devil [takes his character from the evil one], for the devil has sinned (violated the divine law) from the beginning. The reason the Son of God was made manifest (visible) was to undo (destroy, loosen, and dissolve) the works the devil [has done].

9No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
See how the Amplified Bible adds in [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] before sin? Don't you think that any "Christian" that fornicates is doing that sin "deliberately, knowingly, and habitually"? When a man and woman has sex outside of marriage, they are wanting to do that act; better yet, they enjoy it and can't deny that. Adding those words makes people think that the sin they do isn't that bad since they are believers and that they pray for forgiveness over and over again.

__________________________________________

Romans 6 is a powerful chapter that I always come back to that speaks against true believers sinning. Here's verses 1-14:

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[fifi134]

Habitual sin is sin committed out of habit. The person is used to doing the sin. The Bible mentions nothing about habitual sin. The word "habitual" doesn't even appear in the Bible. All sin, regardless of how man categorizes it, is against God.

If an unsaved person is someone that continues their daily life committing sin without regret or remorse, then why do a lot of "saved" folks say we sin daily and we must repent daily? Aren't they really unsaved? Do they really feel regret and remorse for their sins if they continue to do the sin and actually enjoy the sin?

It just doesn't make sense when people say "Now this doesn't make an excuse to sin" when people actually are making excuses to sin. People wouldn't have to say that if they weren't making excuses for it.

Guilt should lead a true saved Christian to stop the sin, not commit it every now and then, or habitually. All sins that you KNOW for a fact are wrong are done intentionally and willfully. There's no way around it. Like this scenario, this girl knows that fornication is wrong and has read it in her Bible, but yet, still commits the sin because she enjoys it, but yet, feels bad about it ONLY because the Bible says it's wrong. So she is a born-again saved Christian because she feels bad about it only because it's wrong according to the Bible?

What's the difference in a believing Christian feeling bad for doing wrong and a nonbeliever (like an Atheist) feeling bad for doing wrong? Is God working through both of them? How can we tell the difference between a Godly sorrow and a worldly sorrow in this case?

Of course the Bible doesn't mention the word habitual. It also doesn't mean the word Trinity, Hell or atheist yet we believe those exist also. By no means am I saying that sins committed by Christians and sins committed by non Christians are different. Sin is sin is sin.

I've never heard of the phrase that we sin daily so we must repent daily. Even so, it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE TO STOP SINNING! The Bible says so clearly! If we were to stop sinning, we would be good, but we know only Christ is good, because 2 Corinthians 5:21 says only in Him was there was no sin.

Yes we as Christians have the power to stop sinning, but we are still fallen man. We are redeemed, but that doesn't mean we are saints once we're saved.

There is no one capable of not sinning besides Christ. Why do you think Paul talked about doing what he didn't wanna do, but not doing what he wanted to? He sinned, just as we all do. If you are truly convicted, you can overcome a particular sin you are struggling with through prayer, fasting, studying your Word and staying within the presence of God. I just do not believe that is something that will happen overnight once we are regenerated by the Spirit.

Feeling bad doesn't mean you are saved. The problem with your example is that an atheist WON'T feel bad about sinning. They have enmity with God, so pleasing Him by leading a life as pure as they can is of no concern to them. Godly sorrow means one will truly prostrate themselves before Him and repent of their sins. A sincere repentance wouldn't just mean you'll stop for now, but that you'd do as best as you can by the grace of God not to do it again. That is why repentance means to turn away. Once you turn away, you do not go back. Psalm 51 is a great passage about true repentance and Godly sorrow.

It's not an excuse of sin to say that we all fall. The Bible explicitly says that. What I'm saying is that we have the chance that nonbelievers do not have; God gives us a chance to come before Him and repent for forgiveness. That is why 1 John 1:9 says God is faithful and just to cleanse us from our sins if we confess them.

Surely the verse (along with several others) wouldn't be there if we were truly capable of not sinning.

David himself sinned with Bathsheba and got her husband Uriah killed. Yet David was a man after God's own heart. Was David not saved?

 

[Raspberry]

Also, original Greek does make distinctions related to habitual sin, sin done out of ignorance, and purposeful sin. Many of us do sin out of ignorance - ex. being prideful: not that most of us set out to be prideful but you may look back later on and realize you had a prideful mindset in a particular thing. But if I call up an ex tonight and decide I just gotta get some, knowing I'm dead wrong, that kind of sin must be taken seriously in my life and eradicated.

I'll have to come back later with more scripture reference but this is an interesting passage.

1 John 1:5-9 - New King James

Fellowship with Him and One Another

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

1 John 1:5-9 - Amplified

5And this is the message [the message of [g]promise] which we have heard from Him and now are reporting to you: God is Light, and there is no darkness in Him at all [[h]no, not in any way].

6[So] if we say we are partakers together and enjoy fellowship with Him when we live and move and are walking about in darkness, we are [both] speaking falsely and do not live and practice the Truth [which the Gospel presents].

7But if we [really] are living and walking in the Light, as He [Himself] is in the Light, we have [true, unbroken] fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses (removes) us from all sin and guilt [keeps us cleansed from sin in all its forms and manifestations].

8If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude and lead ourselves astray, and the Truth [which the Gospel presents] is not in us [does not dwell in our hearts].

9If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].

10If we say (claim) we have not sinned, we contradict His Word and make Him out to be false and a liar, and His Word is not in us [the divine message of the Gospel is not in our hearts].

 

[Poohbear]

Of course the Bible doesn't mention the word habitual. It also doesn't mean the word Trinity, Hell or atheist yet we believe those exist also. By no means am I saying that sins committed by Christians and sins committed by non Christians are different. Sin is sin is sin.

I've never heard of the phrase that we sin daily so we must repent daily. Even so, it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE TO STOP SINNING! The Bible says so clearly! If we were to stop sinning, we would be good, but we know only Christ is good, because 2 Corinthians 5:21 says only in Him was there was no sin.

Yes we as Christians have the power to stop sinning, but we are still fallen man. We are redeemed, but that doesn't mean we are saints once we're saved.

There is no one capable of not sinning besides Christ. Why do you think Paul talked about doing what he didn't wanna do, but not doing what he wanted to? He sinned, just as we all do. If you are truly convicted, you can overcome a particular sin you are struggling with through prayer, fasting, studying your Word and staying within the presence of God. I just do not believe that is something that will happen overnight once we are regenerated by the Spirit.

Feeling bad doesn't mean you are saved. The problem with your example is that an atheist WON'T feel bad about sinning. They have enmity with God, so pleasing Him by leading a life as pure as they can is of no concern to them. Godly sorrow means one will truly prostrate themselves before Him and repent of their sins. A sincere repentance wouldn't just mean you'll stop for now, but that you'd do as best as you can by the grace of God not to do it again. That is why repentance means to turn away. Once you turn away, you do not go back. Psalm 51 is a great passage about true repentance and Godly sorrow.

It's not an excuse of sin to say that we all fall. The Bible explicitly says that. What I'm saying is that we have the chance that nonbelievers do not have; God gives us a chance to come before Him and repent for forgiveness. That is why 1 John 1:9 says God is faithful and just to cleanse us from our sins if we confess them.

Surely the verse (along with several others) wouldn't be there if we were truly capable of not sinning.

David himself sinned with Bathsheba and got her husband Uriah killed. Yet David was a man after God's own heart. Was David not saved?

David did not go back and sin with Bathsheba again after he repented.

I'm talking about Christians who sin, pray for forgiveness, and then go right back and do that same sin again.

Repentance means you turn completely away from sin.... it doesn't mean you "try" your best not to do it again. That means you really haven't stop doing the sin or you don't intend to stop doing the sin.

Just like when a smoker says "I'm trying to stop smoking." That means they haven't stop and don't intend to stop any time soon.

 

[Poohbear]

Also, original Greek does make distinctions related to habitual sin, sin done out of ignorance, and purposeful sin. Many of us do sin out of ignorance - ex. being prideful: not that most of us set out to be prideful but you may look back later on and realize you had a prideful mindset in a particular thing. But if I call up an ex tonight and decide I just gotta get some, knowing I'm dead wrong, that kind of sin must be taken seriously in my life and eradicated.

But the scenario I gave is not talking about sin done out of ignorance. This girl that is fornicating is not doing this sin out of ignorance. She KNOWS it's wrong but yet chooses to do it anyway because she likes it, but at the same time, only feels bad about it because fornication is against God in the Bible. Is she really saved or not? That's the question.

I'm talking about Christians who commit deliberate, habitual sins knowingly. Can they really claim to be born of God and know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of their lives?

 

[Raspberry]

Thank you for the suggestion, however, I have read verses in the Amplified Bible before as I have been studying the Bible. Another lady recommended it to me several months ago, so I decided to check it out. After reading certain passages in it, I feel like it "sugar-coats" the true meaning of the word.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
See how the Amplified Bible adds in [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] before sin? Don't you think that any "Christian" that fornicates is doing that sin "deliberately, knowingly, and habitually"? When a man and woman has sex outside of marriage, they are wanting to do that act; better yet, they enjoy it and can't deny that. Adding those words makes people think that the sin they do isn't that bad since they are believers and that they pray for forgiveness over and over again.

I want to reiterate that the Amplified isn't "adding" words, rather if you look at those original Greek words those meanings are more accurate a translation as our english words tend to be derivative. We all have access to the original Greek to check it for ourselves. There may have been 5 different Greek words for sin and that particular word had those particular shades of meaning.

Also, there are a ton of sins we may commit unknowingly and not habitually. I do believe that if someone is habitually fornicating and has no guilt, I have to question whether they were saved in the first place, as the Holy Spirit inside cannot tolerate that continual conscious defilement and Jesus says that if we loved God we will keep his commandments. Christians who constantly succumb to their urges tend be the most miserable of folk as their spirits will agitate the flesh and vice versa.

Clearly the Bible states that Christians will be judged for what they did with their bodies and talents and we will suffer loss of reward for some of those things - and I wish to be always aware of that appointment I have with Jesus. However, the Bible also says that that grace is continually available to continually cleanse us.

Do you think that a Christian loses their salvation whenever they sin?

 

[Laela]

1 John 3:6-9 is a very good Scripture... it's talking about willfully sinning. A person who is abiding in God will not WANT to sin. So, to avoid continually sinning, the born-again Believer must ABIDE (i.e., continuously spend time with God, by Praying, reading (or eating) his Word, because it is Life to the Believer.
The Word is the "seed" mentioned in verse 9. The more His seed grows in us, the less room there is for sin. IOW, when we abide, we cannot continually sin. Abiding and being born-again go hand in hand. It doesn't mean a Believe cannot sin/fall at all, but we won't practice sin because we're too busy abiding.

But to the address the linguistics... I take it the word you're referring to is "commit?"
For someone to COMMIT anything, it has to be done deliberately. So referencing the meaning the word "commit", which is also in the KJV version, the understanding is that the sin is willful.

If you want to get technical, here's the definition of the word "commit"

com·mit
verb \kə-ˈmit\
com·mit·tedcom·mit·ting
Definition of COMMIT
transitive verb
1
a : to put into charge or trust : entrust b : to place in a prison or mental institution c : to consign or record for preservation <commit it to memory> d : to put into a place for disposal or safekeeping e : to refer (as a legislative bill) to a committee for consideration and report
2
: to carry into action deliberately : perpetrate <commit a crime>
3
a : obligate, bind <a contract committing the company to complete the project on time> b : to pledge or assign to some particular course or use <commit all troops to the attack> c : to reveal the views of <refused to commit himself on the issue>
intransitive verb
1
obsolete : to perpetrate an offense
2
: to obligate or pledge oneself
— com·mit·ta·ble\-ˈmi-tə-bəl\ adjective

Thank you for the suggestion, however, I have read verses in the Amplified Bible before as I have been studying the Bible. Another lady recommended it to me several months ago, so I decided to check it out. After reading certain passages in it, I feel like it "sugar-coats" the true meaning of the word.

For example:

King James Version Bible of 1 John 3:6-9
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Amplified Bible of 1 John 3:6-9
6No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him--deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him].

7Boys (lads), let no one deceive and lead you astray. He who practices righteousness [who is upright, conforming to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action, living a consistently conscientious life] is righteous, even as He is righteous.

8[But] he who commits sin [who practices evildoing] is of the devil [takes his character from the evil one], for the devil has sinned (violated the divine law) from the beginning. The reason the Son of God was made manifest (visible) was to undo (destroy, loosen, and dissolve) the works the devil [has done].

9No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
See how the Amplified Bible adds in [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] before sin? Don't you think that any "Christian" that fornicates is doing that sin "deliberately, knowingly, and habitually"? When a man and woman has sex outside of marriage, they are wanting to do that act; better yet, they enjoy it and can't deny that. Adding those words makes people think that the sin they do isn't that bad since they are believers and that they pray for forgiveness over and over again.

__________________________________________

Romans 6 is a powerful chapter that I always come back to that speaks against true believers sinning. Here's verses 1-14:

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[Raspberry]

But the scenario I gave is not talking about sin done out of ignorance. This girl that is fornicating is not doing this sin out of ignorance. She KNOWS it's wrong but yet chooses to do it anyway because she likes it, but at the same time, only feels bad about it because fornication is against God in the Bible. Is she really saved or not? That's the question.

I'm talking about Christians who commit deliberate, habitual sins knowingly. Can they really claim to be born of God and know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of their lives?

You know what, I really do hear you. Yes I do think we can question the salvation of people who continually and purposefully sin while claiming to be Christians and proud of it. Now I have seen patterns of behavior in people who grow up in certain church environments where sinful lifestyles are glossed over and downplayed. It makes me wonder if many are saved but remain victims of unsound examples (thought many of these folks do know the Word enough to know better)- it becomes obvious when their lives bear no fruit. It's also sobering to think about those the scripture that says "Many will come to me saying 'Lord, Lord'..." is referring to.

Poohbear I thank you for your comments in this thread because you have me thinking about how many of us (including myself) need a wake-up call to holiness and fear of the living God.

 

[Laela]

Pooh, it's funny you have started this thread.. you must've been watching Benny Hinn? Two days ago, I watched his teaching on that same Scripture (1 John 3:9), which basically identifies what it really means to be born again. The message to unbelievers, is they must first be born again. For believers, they must renew their mind (abide).... it's not an instant thing but a process. It's not about judging anyone but looking at what God's Word says.

This is why God wants us to keep his Word continually before our eyes...the more we do, the more of his wisdom we acquire and the more 'see' the devil's tricks and wiles in our own lives. Satan loves to use our own weaknesses (what tempts us) against us, to get us to sin. He's been doing that since Adam. Being born into sin (Psalms 51) is no excuse to stay in it. Once we know our temptations, we turn away from them or don't purposefully put ourselves in positions to be tempted.
It's always good see how far we've come, with transformation through the Holy Spirit. People who are born-again WILL CHANGE; everyone's growth/process is different...the things I used to do, I do them no more, etc...

 

[fifi134]

David did not go back and sin with Bathsheba again after he repented.

I'm talking about Christians who sin, pray for forgiveness, and then go right back and do that same sin again.

Repentance means you turn completely away from sin.... it doesn't mean you "try" your best not to do it again. That means you really haven't stop doing the sin or you don't intend to stop doing the sin.

Just like when a smoker says "I'm trying to stop smoking." That means they haven't stop and don't intend to stop any time soon.

We all intend to sin when we do so. Someone struggling with pornography, or cursing, or fornication, etc. may very well be sincere in their attempts to stop sinning. But that turn around will not stop overnight cold turkey. In fact, the sin you so strongly desire to stop committing may cause temptation to intensify, making it even harder to stop. I agree, true repentance means we will turn away and not do it again, but we have to be realistic in understanding that it's not something that happens once you stop praying to God about it.

This is what I mean by 'habitual sin'. It's when for instance, I continue to sin over and over and over again, with no intention on stopping or repenting. That is what 1 John 3:6 speaks on. People who "keep on sinning". Those are the ones who are do not "live in Him". That is vastly different from a Christian who sins and sincerely asks for God's forgiveness.

 

[Poohbear]

But to the address the linguistics... I take it the word you're referring to is "commit?"
For someone to COMMIT anything, it has to be done deliberately. So referencing the meaning the word "commit", which is also in the KJV version, the understanding is that the sin is willful.

I agree with you, but my point of me "getting technical" per se is because I've heard Christians say that the sin(s) that they do occasionally does not classify as deliberate, habitual, continuous sin, when it really is if they KNOW it is wrong. And the word "practice" softens up the word "commit".