Is there such thing as a Saved "Christian" Fornicator?

[Poohbear]

I believe we can only be made perfect after death. And I honestly don't understand why this question keeps coming up. Really reading the Word and taking it all together, synthesis basically, gives the answers to your questions. you should NOT continue in the same sin. And I don't think the Bible actually sad that we will all be saved just for believing in God. There is much more to it than that.

I agree with the bolded, but who are the ones that will be made perfect after death? Will it be everyone (believers and nonbelievers) since no one is perfect? Not only does the bible say unbelievers will not inherit the kingdom of God and be thrown in the lake of fire, but also it mentions others too (whoremongers, liars, etc).

I genuinely wonder if your confusion comes from listening to others instead of gleaning your own understanding. You have said numerous times that you read the Bible, but if you read it, then why are you having such a hard time finding the answers? And why aren't you praying to God for discernment and understanding on this stuff? I just don't get it. NO ONE will ever get clarification on these issues until they seek Him and His Word, clearing their minds of what others have to say.

I also think it is unsafe and unwise to try to use others to figure out where you stand with God.

I believe my confusion comes from alot of sources, both reading and listening to what others say AND reading the bible for myself and seeking God and His Word for myself. I'm having a hard time finding answers probably because none of the answers I have gotten make sense. I can pray to God for discernment and understanding all I want, but that still does not resolve the confusion that goes on in my mind. I think it is I want to know so much that I'm coming to the point where I should just chalk it up and realize I will not find all the answers while here on this Earth. I don't think anyone has a clear perfect clarification on these issues of faith and religion no matter how much they have sought Him and His Word, even with clearing their minds with what others have to say.

And I'm not using others to figure out where I stand with God... that's ridiculous. I'm just asking others about their beliefs, views, and opinions on different issues when it comes to the Bible and Christianity. Nothing more.

 

[anartist4u2001]

she hasn't turned her back on God. does she want to get better? it's an everyday struggle. we just have to keep comin' closer to God and he will change our thinking.

also, i think God uses whomever he pleases to do his will. i mean if everyone stepped down from teaching the word of God because of sin, then shoot nobody would teaching because everybody is strugglin' with somethin'. nobody would witnesses, nobody would be doin' mission work and so forth.

Jesus knew that Peter would deny him 3 times, but he still told him to preach the gospel. he was prejuidice, but he still preached. he learned better though.

 

[CoilyFields]

1. Ephesians 2:8-9 explains that we have achieved salvation by Gods grace through our faith. Not by works so that no one can boast.
So if we can't do enough good works to earn our way into heaven, conversly we can't do anything bad enough to revoke Gods promise. His grace offered it and our faith led us to accept it. The end.
We should still strive to live a holy life but the Bible says even our righteousness is as filthy rags (compared to a perfect God). Our good works (including not sinning ) is for our relationship with God and so that others see our good works and praise God.

2. The Bible talks about many folks not inheriting the kingdom of heaven/God. There are two meanings to this phrase. One refers to heaven the place God dwells. The other refers to the kingdom of heaven inside each believer. Romans 14:17 explains that kingdom is righteousness, peace, and joy in the holy ghost. So it is possible for your sins to effect these areas. Your unrighteous acts affect your relationship with God, you won't have peace with others, and you will not have joy...the kingdom of God on the inside of us while on earth...not our eternal status.

3. If whenever we sin we had to get saved all over again then the blood of Christ would be ineffective. The priests used to have to constantly go before God offering burnt sacrifices for the people (under the law) because that sacrifice was only good for that one sin, they continually stood before God. But the reason Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice was because he, the high priest, the sacrificial lamb, only had to die once for all. Past present and future sins. And when he was done the bible said he sat down! Cuz the work was done and he now sits making intercession for us (asking Gods grace on our behalf). (This leads to pauls plea for us not to sin haphazardly just because grace is abounding)

So a Christian that is overtaken in a fault must confess and ask for forgiveness. and then do the WORK it takes to not repeat it. I.e. maybe she shouldn't have a boyfriend...duh. stop clearing a path to sin. If I keep maxing out my credit cards and can't seem to stop then I need to get rid of them altogether. Seems drastic but you will do what you need to for those things you find important.

Sent from my Zio using Long Hair Care Forum App

 

[LilMissSunshine5]

^^^ I totally agree!

 

[makeupgirl]

Here is something from gotquestions.com about being saved and sin

Question: "If I am saved and all of my sins are forgiven, why not continue to sin?"

Answer: The apostle Paul answered a very similar question in Romans 6:1-2, “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” The idea that a person could “trust in Jesus Christ” for salvation and then go on living just as he/she lived before, is absolutely foreign to the Bible. Believers in Christ are new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17). The Holy Spirit changes us from producing the acts of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21) to producing the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). The Christian life is a changed life because the Christian is changed.

What differentiates Christianity from every other religion is that Christianity is based on what God has done for us through Jesus Christ—divine accomplishment. Every other world religion is based on what we must do to earn God's favor and forgiveness—human achievement. Every other religion teaches that we must do certain things and stop doing certain other things in order to earn God's love and mercy. Christianity, faith in Christ, teaches that we do certain things and stop doing certain things because of what Christ has done for us.

How could anyone, having been delivered from sin's penalty, eternity in hell, go back to living the same life that had him on the path to hell in the first place? How could anyone, having been cleansed from the defilement of sin, desire to go back to the same cesspool of depravity? How could anyone, knowing what Jesus Christ did on our behalf, go on living as if He were not important? How could anyone, realizing how much Christ suffered for our sins, continue sinning as if those sufferings were meaningless?

Romans 6:11-15 declares, “In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!”

For the truly converted, then, continuing to live sinfully is not an option. Because our conversion resulted in a completely new nature, our desire is to no longer live in sin. Yes, we still sin, but instead of wallowing in it as we once did, we now hate it and wish to be delivered from it. The idea of “taking advantage” of Christ’s sacrifice on our behalf by continuing to live sinfully is unthinkable. If a person believes himself to be a Christian and still desires to live the old, sinful life, he has reason to doubt his salvation. “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?” (2 Corinthians 13:5).

Question: "Do we sin daily? Is it possible to go an entire day without sinning?"

Answer: While there is not a Bible verse that specifically states we commit a sinful act each day, we do have verses that remind us that we have inherited the capacity to sin at any moment. "Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" (Romans 5:12). "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5). In addition, we have commands that we know we never keep, much less on a daily basis. For instance, who can claim to love God with all his heart, mind and soul every moment of every day? No one. Yet, that is the greatest commandment (Matthew 22:36-38). Failing to love God completely at all times is a daily sin for all Christians.

We also have a verse that warns us of the deceitfulness of our old sinful nature, which in a sense is warning us of the potential, if not the likelihood, of daily sin. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9). Even the apostle Paul was frustrated with his own battle against indwelling sin. "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" (Romans 7:22-23). This capacity to sin led him to cry in desperation, “What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?” (Romans 7:24).

Solomon knew full well that he and all men not only have the potential for sin, but that we all exercise that capacity routinely. As he stated in his prayer at the dedication of the temple, "If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not)" (1 Kings 8:46). And Solomon spoke of it again in the book of Ecclesiastes: "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not" (Ecclesiastes 7:20). Again, while these verses do not unequivocally indicate daily sin, they certainly warn us against the pride of saying at any moment that we have no sin.

The good news is that we will not have to strive forever against daily sin. One day we will be in heaven with our Savior and will be freed from the presence and power of sin, just as we have already been freed from its penalty.

 

[makeupgirl]

Question: "Do Christians have to keep asking for forgiveness for their sins?"

Answer: A frequent question is “what happens if I sin, and then I die before I have an opportunity to confess that sin to God?” Another common question is “what happens if I commit a sin, but then forget about it and never remember to confess it to God?” Both of these questions rest on a faulty assumption. Salvation is not a matter of believers trying to confess and repent from every sin they commit before they die. Salvation is not based on whether a Christian has confessed and repented of every sin. Yes, we should confess our sins to God as soon as we are aware that we have sinned. However, we do not always need to be asking God for forgiveness. When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, all of our sins are forgiven. That includes past, present, and future, big or small. Believers do not have to keep asking for forgiveness or repenting in order to have their sins forgiven. Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins, and when they are forgiven, they are all forgiven (Colossians 1:14; Acts 10:43).

What we are to do is confess our sins: “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). What this verse tells us to do is “confess” our sins to God. The word “confess” means “to agree with.” When we confess our sins to God, we are agreeing with God that we were wrong, that we have sinned. God forgives us, through confession, on an ongoing basis because of the fact that He is “faithful and just.” How is God “faithful and just”? He is faithful by forgiving sins, which He has promised to do for all those who receive Christ as Savior. He is just by applying Christ’s payment for our sins, recognizing that the sins have indeed been atoned for.

At the same time, 1 John 1:9 does indicate that somehow forgiveness is dependent on our confessing our sins to God. How does this work if all of our sins are forgiven the moment we receive Christ as Savior? It seems that what the apostle John is describing here is “relational” forgiveness. All of our sins are forgiven “positionally” the moment we receive Christ as Savior. This positional forgiveness guarantees our salvation and promise of an eternal home in heaven. When we stand before God after death, God will not deny us entrance into heaven because of our sins. That is positional forgiveness. The concept of relational forgiveness is based on the fact that when we sin, we offend God and grieve His Spirit (Ephesians 4:30). While God has ultimately forgiven us of the sins we commit, they still result in a blocking or hindrance in our relationship with God. A young boy who sins against his father is not cast out of the family. A godly father will forgive his children unconditionally. At the same time, a good relationship between father and son cannot be achieved until the relationship is restored. This can only occur when a child confesses his mistakes to his father and apologizes. That is why we confess our sins to God—not to maintain our salvation, but to bring ourselves back into close fellowship with the God who loves us and has already forgiven us.

 

[makeupgirl]

Question: "Will God continue to forgive you if you commit the same sin over and over again?"



Answer: To best answer this question, we’re going to look at two powerful passages of Scripture. The first is found in the book of Psalms: “As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us” (Psalm 103:12). One of the most effective tricks Satan plays on Christians is to convince us that our sins aren't really forgiven, despite the promise of God's Word. If we've truly received Jesus as Savior by faith, and still have that uneasy feeling wondering whether or not there is true forgiveness, that may be coming from demonic influences. Demons hate it when people are delivered from their grasp, and they try to plant seeds of doubt in our minds about the reality of our salvation. In his vast arsenal of tricks, one of Satan’s biggest tools is to constantly remind us of our past transgressions, and he uses those to prove that God couldn't possibly forgive or restore us. The devil's attacks make it a real challenge for us to simply rest in the promises of God and trust His love.



But this psalm also tells us that God not only forgives our sins, but removes them completely from His presence. This is a profound thing! Without question, this is a very difficult concept for humans to grasp, which is why it's so easy for us to worry and wonder about forgiveness instead of just accepting it. The key lies in simply giving up our doubts and our feelings of guilt and resting in His promises of forgiveness.



Another passage is 1 John 1:9, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” What an incredible promise! God forgives His children when they sin if only they come to Him and in an attitude of repentance and ask to be forgiven. God’s grace is so great that it can cleanse the sinner from his sin so that he becomes a child of God, and, correspondingly, it is so great that even when we stumble, we can be forgiven still.



In Matthew 18:21-22, we read, "Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, ‘Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?’ Jesus answered, ‘I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.’” Peter was probably thinking that he was being generous. Rather than repay a person who had committed a sin against him with equal retribution, Peter suggested giving the brother some leeway, say, up to seven times. But the eighth time, forgiveness and grace would run out. But Christ challenged the rules of Peter’s suggested economy of grace by saying that forgiveness is infinite for those who are truly seeking it. This is only possible because of the infinite grace of God which is made possible through the shed blood of Christ on the cross. Because of Christ’s forgiving power, we can always be made clean after we sin if we humbly seek it.



At the same time, it must be noted that it is not biblical for a person to sin habitually and continually as a lifestyle and still be a believer (1 John 3:8-9). This is why Paul admonishes us to “examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?” (2 Corinthians 13:5). As Christians, we do stumble, but we do not live a lifestyle of continual, unrepentant sin. All of us have weaknesses and can fall into sin, even if we don’t want to. Even the apostle Paul did what he didn’t want to do because of the sin at work in his body (Romans 7:15). Like Paul, the response of the believer is to hate the sin, repent of it and ask for divine grace to overcome it (Romans 7:24-25). Although we need not fall because of God’s sufficient grace, sometimes we do because we rely upon our insufficient strength. When our faith grows weak and like Peter, we deny our Lord in word or in life, even then there is still a chance to repent and be forgiven of our sin.



Another one of Satan’s tricks is to get us into thinking that there is no hope, that there is no possibility that we can be forgiven, healed, and restored. He will try to get us to feel consumed and trapped by guilt so that we do not feel worthy of God’s forgiveness any longer. But since when were we ever worthy of God’s grace? God loved us, forgave us and chose us to be in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-6), not because of anything we did, but “in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory” (Ephesians 1:12). We must always keep in mind that there is no place we can go that God’s grace cannot reach, and there is no depth to which we can sink that God is no longer able to pull us out. His grace is greater than all of our sin. Whether we are just starting to wander off course or we are already sinking and drowning in our sin, grace can be received.



Grace is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8). When we sin, the Spirit will convict us of sin such that a godly sorrow will result (2 Corinthians 7:10-11). He will not condemn our souls as if there is no hope, for there is no longer any condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). The Spirit’s conviction within us is a movement of love and grace. Grace is not an excuse to sin (Romans 6:1-2), and it dare not be abused, meaning that sin must be called sin, and it cannot be treated as if it is harmless or inoffensive. Unrepentant believers need to be lovingly confronted and guided to freedom, and unbelievers need to be told that they need to repent. Yet let us also emphasize the remedy, for we have been given grace upon grace (John 1:16). It is how we live, how we are saved, how we are sanctified, and how we will be kept and glorified. Let us receive grace when we sin by repenting and confessing our sin to God. Why live a soiled life when Christ offers to make us clean and whole and right in the eyes of God?

Here are the sources from the site

http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-sin.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/forgive-same-sin.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/forgiven-why-not-sin.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-daily.html

 

[lovely008]

Scenario:

Let's say this Christian girl professed a faith in Christ at a young age and was then baptized. She attended church every Sunday and was very involved with the church. She read her bible, prayed, and even taught other people in the church. Then she one day experimented with sexual intercourse at the end of her high school years. As time goes on into her 20's, she continues this behavior, tries to stop and even feels bad about what she is doing every time, and prays and confesses her sin to God over and over for forgiveness. Days, weeks, or months could go by, and she would have sex again. She was never promiscuous per se (as in having multiple random sex partners), she would just always have sex with her boyfriend only. During this whole time, she is still heavily involved in the church, teaching others about the Bible, and never ceases to pray, and still claims to believe in Jesus as her personal Lord and Savior.

Is this woman still considered a born-again Christian that is SAVED on her way to Heaven after she dies? Why or why not?

If so, then wouldn't you say everyone that claims to be a Christian and still commits sin is going to Heaven no matter what they say or do?

If not, wouldn't you say that you must stop sinning completely in order to be saved?

And if you don't believe you must stop sinning completely in order to be saved, then how can you judge this woman as unsaved?

Please share your thoughts...

If she confessed and is showing fruits in other parts of her life but CANNOT stop something like this, I believe she is a christian but most likely has a demonic stronghold in her life. She has given what seems to be the spirit of lust the right to set up camp in her life.

During this past fast, The Lord revealed this to me and set me free. I had to confess and ask God to forgive me for every sin in my past that gave the devil a RIGHT (There will be temptation but he will not set up shop in our lives if he has no right) to set up a demonic stronghold in my life. The Holy Spirit brought things to remembrance and trust me I have the worst memory. After confessing and asking for repentance, I proceeded to cast out the demons and their strongholds in the name of Jesus. It was very intense but I knew that the battle was The Lord's and the victory was his. I immediately saw changes in myself and truly realized that the devil is a coward and realized even more how truly powerful the name of Jesus is.

Dr. Adrian Rogers gave a great sermon on Demonic strongholds that opened my eyes to things I was struggling with letting go. It's something every christian really, really needs to be aware about. Here's a link to the message audio: http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/love-worth-finding/listen/how-to-break-satans-strongholds-in-your-life-137219.html

 

[CoilyFields]

Also,

God established the law in the OT. But NO ONE was good enough to be able to keep the law in deed and in their hearts.

Thats why we needed Jesus...a savior to bridge the gap that our sin caused between us and God. So if our good deeds couldnt bridge that gap before...why would we believe our bad deeds could destroy the power of that bridge (the blood of Jesus).

 

[Poohbear]

Here are the sources from the site

http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-sin.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/forgive-same-sin.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/forgiven-why-not-sin.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-daily.html

makeupgirl

It's funny that you posted this articles from gotquestions.org because I have read all of them one day several months ago and they all left me confused. I even re-read some of them and came to the same conclusion... To me, these articles are indirectly saying it's okay to sin as a Christian.

 

[Poohbear]

CoilyFields...

1. Ephesians 2:8-9 explains that we have achieved salvation by Gods grace through our faith. Not by works so that no one can boast.
So if we can't do enough good works to earn our way into heaven, conversly we can't do anything bad enough to revoke Gods promise. His grace offered it and our faith led us to accept it. The end.
We should still strive to live a holy life but the Bible says even our righteousness is as filthy rags (compared to a perfect God). Our good works (including not sinning ) is for our relationship with God and so that others see our good works and praise God.

So a fornicator that never marries can still end up in heaven as long as she claims to be a believer in Jesus and ask forgiveness of the SAME sin over and over? Repentance is not required for salvation?

2. The Bible talks about many folks not inheriting the kingdom of heaven/God. There are two meanings to this phrase. One refers to heaven the place God dwells. The other refers to the kingdom of heaven inside each believer. Romans 14:17 explains that kingdom is righteousness, peace, and joy in the holy ghost. So it is possible for your sins to effect these areas. Your unrighteous acts affect your relationship with God, you won't have peace with others, and you will not have joy...the kingdom of God on the inside of us while on earth...not our eternal status.

This is interesting... so there are two kingdoms of heaven/God? This is a first time hearing this concept but it makes sense with regard to sin and salvation. However, if unrighteous acts affect your relationship with God, how come it does not affect your eternal status? Is "inheriting the kingdom of heaven/God" different from "salvation"?

3. If whenever we sin we had to get saved all over again then the blood of Christ would be ineffective. The priests used to have to constantly go before God offering burnt sacrifices for the people (under the law) because that sacrifice was only good for that one sin, they continually stood before God. But the reason Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice was because he, the high priest, the sacrificial lamb, only had to die once for all. Past present and future sins. And when he was done the bible said he sat down! Cuz the work was done and he now sits making intercession for us (asking Gods grace on our behalf). (This leads to pauls plea for us not to sin haphazardly just because grace is abounding)

So a Christian that is overtaken in a fault must confess and ask for forgiveness. and then do the WORK it takes to not repeat it. I.e. maybe she shouldn't have a boyfriend...duh. stop clearing a path to sin. If I keep maxing out my credit cards and can't seem to stop then I need to get rid of them altogether. Seems drastic but you will do what you need to for those things you find important.

Sent from my Zio using Long Hair Care Forum App

Okay, with saying this.... why should she do the WORK it takes to not repeat the sin if her past, present, and future sins are forgiven by the sacrificial lamb of God?

 

[aribell]

I was reading this verse yesterday:

Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”

What I understand from that is:

a) forgiveness is conditional upon repentance
b) forgiveness is unquestionably given after repentance
c) so long as there is repentance, even if frequent, there will be forgiveness

The danger of falling away is not in repeating a sin too often, but in eventually giving up and ceasing to repent and turn back to God; for without repentance there will be no forgiveness.

 

[aribell]

Oh, I wanted to add why I don't think that repeated forgiveness means that the Christian walk is easy. Essentially, Scripture tells us that to sin against God is to harden our heart toward Him. When our hearts are hardened through repeated sin, we become spiritually calloused and respond less and less to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts of sin, when we become insensitive to the Spirit, we cease to be convicted of our sin. When we no longer feel conviction, we cease to repent and so cease trusting in Jesus for our forgiveness. Without faith in Jesus (active faith) we will not stand before the Lord.

God will forgive repeatedly. He puts no limits on how many times He will forgive--even to the crazy extent shown in Luke. But repeated sin will harden us and we will find ourselves in danger of becoming so hard that we no longer care about the things of God and ultimately turn away from Jesus altogether.

"If today you hear His voice, harden not your heart."

 

[makeupgirl]

makeupgirl

It's funny that you posted this articles from gotquestions.org because I have read all of them one day several months ago and they all left me confused. I even re-read some of them and came to the same conclusion... To me, these articles are indirectly saying it's okay to sin as a Christian.

lol....I don't think they are saying it's ok to sin but let's just keep each other in prayer that as we continue our walk with the Lord that we will do what Romans 12:9 says,"abhor what is evil and cling to what is good"

 

[CoilyFields]

@CoilyFields...


So a fornicator that never marries can still end up in heaven as long as she claims to be a believer in Jesus and ask forgiveness of the SAME sin over and over? Repentance is not required for salvation?

This is interesting... so there are two kingdoms of heaven/God? This is a first time hearing this concept but it makes sense with regard to sin and salvation. However, if unrighteous acts affect your relationship with God, how come it does not affect your eternal status? Is "inheriting the kingdom of heaven/God" different from "salvation"?


Okay, with saying this.... why should she do the WORK it takes to not repeat the sin if her past, present, and future sins are forgiven by the sacrificial lamb of God?[/QUOTE]

To the BOlded: Yes Ma'am! At the point of conversion you are recognizing that you are a sinner that deserves the penalty of your actions (death), that you need a savior, that Jesus IS the ONLY way to God and accept that HE alone can save you from the eternal penalty of sin.

See salvation is the gift of eternal life with God. We could never be good enough to earn that "right" so we needed Jesus' "rightousness ticket" to get us in. This is gauranteed. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. AFTER we have accepted him we are to live lives as befitting a co-heir of Jesus CHrist. The eternal battle has already been won but we must now train our bodies to be subject to our spirit (the new-born spirit of incorruptable seed).
When you are a child of the King you want to represent him accurately. and those who are overtaken in a fault (practicing sin) have allowed their flesh to reign rather than the spirit. THey are acting out, and will be chestized accordingly. But their salvation will not be taken away.

So what is the motivator for saved folk to do right if they already have eternal life? We are still subject to the laws that God has put in place-sowing/reaping, trials to test/strengthen your faith etc. GOd will not allow us to "rest" in our sin. God knows our hearts and deals with us accordingly.

For example:God made a covenant with the children of isreal. As a sign he had the males be circumcized. Now these doggone people...lol...before AND AFTER they obtained part of the promise (the land) they still rebelled against him. But He did not require that they be Re-Circumcized after every sin...because HIS promise to them never changed...their actions took them down paths that were not very plesant for them but they never became "un-chosen" due to their actions and eventually produced the long awaited massiah of the world.

As for those folks at judgement day that he says he never knew...it wasn't that they had salvation and then he took it back...it was that they had never truly accepted him in their hearts to begin with. And ONLY they and God know if their heart is truly his or if they just said some words on a sunday. For those in a sorority its like saying, "Well Lord I wore pink and green, and I threw up my pinkie in pictures, and I skee-wee'd" and He says, "But You know you were not an AKA"

To the Italisized:

THe consequences to a jacked up relationship with God are real. He has a way of getting our attention. I've said this before and I'll say it again, I "shacked up" with my husband for two years before we got married (participating in some not-quite but really was fornicating activities). I prayed and cried and "repented" and said I would stop...then I kept doing it. Then repeated the same thing over and over but guess what...I never put him out! Felt HORIBBLE sometimes but not horrible enough to do what I needed to do to stop sinning (like we were gonna magically stop wanting each other while being that close all the time lol). And well, lets just say we have been paying for it for the last two years. And when I wanted to know why things were going so wrong in my life, I was directed to those times I chose my guy over my God. God is not mocked. To repent means to turn away from. So if you keep doing it like I did most times its really that you just feel guilt, shame, sorrowful...but you haven't repented.

But no matter how bad I am...nothing can seperate my from the love of God. How did he show his love? In while we were yet sinners Christ died and granted me eternal life

 

[LilMissSunshine5]

I think we could go back and forth forever, but the two "camps" can't be reconciled. One believes in grace based salvation and the other believes in works based salvation. I fall in the camp that believes salvation is based on grace. I can't earn it, nor can I lose it (not even by sinning), because it was a gift. I'm sorry, but I don't believe God revokes our salvation if we sin. I don't think it matters if it is one time sin like gluttony or habitual sin like fornication, sin is sin to God. Sometimes we sin without even knowing it. The purpose of the salvation was to cover our sins. It is powerful...how powerful would it be if it only had partial power under specific circumstances? I don't think God does things halfway. If we had to continually get saved or could have our salvation "revoked" because of sin, then we might as well be living under the Old Testament Law IMO. There is no freedom in that. I think everything we need to know about salvation is contained in John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" I don't think there is any debating the message of that verse.

I believe the blood covers my sin from the past, present and future. God is timeless and so is the salvation He offers us. He knows our hearts, our motives and whether we truly accept it. I attempt to not sin and ask forgiveness not because I am afraid of losing my salvation, but because I want to please my Heavenly Father. The grace God extended me through the blood is not a license to sin. If I choose to sin, then it creates a wedge between God and I, but it doesn't cancel out my salvation, it damages my relationship with God. I choose to try to live a holy life because I don't ever want to not be close to God. I lived like that before and it wasn't a happy life. Like I said previously, salvation is only the beginning of our Christian journey. Maybe an analogy could be that Christianity is like a basketball team. Salvation gains us an admission to the team, but would God be proud of us if we were content with just being bench warmers? I want Him to be proud of me for using my talents, working hard to become better and being a contributing member of the team LOL But when the team wins the championship, we are ALL champions (bench warmers and starters alike). I think we just have to decide what kind of team member we want to be. But I think a lot of us in this thread have fundamental differences in doctrine that won't ever be reconciled. Those are my 2 cents.

 

[LilMissSunshine5]

CoilyFields, I totally agree! Couldn't have said it better myself If I saw your response before I posted, I would have saved myself some time writing up my long reply

 

[LoveisYou]

While I was out "feeding my flesh" I noticed one of the things I did was hide, kind of like Eve in the garden of Eden, my shame and guilt led to me hiding. I hid in many ways, I stopped attending church regularly, I was no longer on the usher board, I hid some of the consequences of my sin......I was so ashamed that I became disconnected from Christian fellowship, which is sometimes necessary for accountability - especially for young Christians. The enemy used my guilt and shame to keep me hiding, keep me disconnected and more sins entered my life. I am so blessed because looking back.... I am so thankful that God watched over me and kept me. I know I can't do it by myself so I have fully turned my weakness over to Him and pray always that He helps me to always present my body as a "living sacrifice, holy and acceptable." I don't take fornication lightly - I have reaped the consequences and experienced the downfalls. Further I do believe when you have sex with someone you open up your spirit to theirs and sometimes you have no idea what you are opening your spirit to; hence why many believe it's so important to break sexual soul ties before entering into a marriage etc.

 

[Poohbear]

I think we could go back and forth forever, but the two "camps" can't be reconciled. One believes in grace based salvation and the other believes in works based salvation. I fall in the camp that believes salvation is based on grace. I can't earn it, nor can I lose it (not even by sinning), because it was a gift. I'm sorry, but I don't believe God revokes our salvation if we sin. I don't think it matters if it is one time sin like gluttony or habitual sin like fornication, sin is sin to God. Sometimes we sin without even knowing it. The purpose of the salvation was to cover our sins. It is powerful...how powerful would it be if it only had partial power under specific circumstances? I don't think God does things halfway. If we had to continually get saved or could have our salvation "revoked" because of sin, then we might as well be living under the Old Testament Law IMO. There is no freedom in that. I think everything we need to know about salvation is contained in John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" I don't think there is any debating the message of that verse.

I believe the blood covers my sin from the past, present and future. God is timeless and so is the salvation He offers us. He knows our hearts, our motives and whether we truly accept it. I attempt to not sin and ask forgiveness not because I am afraid of losing my salvation, but because I want to please my Heavenly Father. The grace God extended me through the blood is not a license to sin. If I choose to sin, then it creates a wedge between God and I, but it doesn't cancel out my salvation, it damages my relationship with God. I choose to try to live a holy life because I don't ever want to not be close to God. I lived like that before and it wasn't a happy life. Like I said previously, salvation is only the beginning of our Christian journey. Maybe an analogy could be that Christianity is like a basketball team. Salvation gains us an admission to the team, but would God be proud of us if we were content with just being bench warmers? I want Him to be proud of me for using my talents, working hard to become better and being a contributing member of the team LOL But when the team wins the championship, we are ALL champions (bench warmers and starters alike). I think we just have to decide what kind of team member we want to be. But I think a lot of us in this thread have fundamental differences in doctrine that won't ever be reconciled. Those are my 2 cents.

CoilyFields, I totally agree! Couldn't have said it better myself If I saw your response before I posted, I would have saved myself some time writing up my long reply

LilMissSunshine5, you post is welcomed and valued in this thread too.

I'm just torn between which camp to believe in... 1) Grace based on believing only and forgiven past, present, future sins OR 2) Grace based on believing and a one time repentance from all sin and unrighteous. "Once Saved Always Saved and sin all you want" vs "You can lose you salvation due to sin". I don't know which one to believe! erplexed

 

[LilMissSunshine5]

Poohbear- How about neither? Bc I don't believe in either of those. Yes, I do believe if you are truly saved, then you are always saved, but why does that have to mean they can sin all they want? Why would someone desire to become saved only to stay a slave to sin? I didn't accept salvation thinking it entitled me to an unlimited sin gift card I turned away from sin when I became a Christian. But as years passed, I backslid. This wasn't an intention I had when I became saved, but because of the human sin nature, this happens to many Christians (I suspect). While grace is freely given, it should inspire us to want to sin less, not encourage us to use it as a license to do whatever we want.

It sounds like you are afraid if you believe you can't lose your salvation, then you won't have incentive to "behave" and not sin. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it is just what I have sensed from the posts. In my past, I struggled with legalism because I was afraid if I believed differently then I wouldn't act right. In reality, it kept me enslaved to my sin nature because I became very judgemental and was guilty of other "righteous" sins in trying to avoid sin, if that makes any sense. This eventually eroded my relationship with God. When I eventually started committing the sins of the very people I judged, it made me feel so guilty that it created a giant gulf between God and I. It got so bad that I couldn't even hear God anymore and I felt so lost. But when I got to my lowest point, I finally let those ideas go and came to God humbly asking for help and insight. And He accepted me back and my mindset completely changed.

I realized that my other beliefs were false doctrine and only served as a tool for the devil to separate me from fully experiencing the love of God! I figured out I was behaving just like the Pharisees thinking avoiding sin and "being righteous" somehow earned me God's favor. Our very best is like filthy rags to God I have "sinned" less since believing that God's grace was enough and He would never stop loving me/turn His back on me. It doesn't seem intuitive, but this has been my experience. Grace hasn't given me license to sin, but encouraged me to strive to be more like Christ because of how generous God has been in always showing me love. It allowed the power of the blood to truly manifest in my life I finally accepted the unconditional love of God and it actually made me more loving towards other people.

For instance, when my parents disciplined me as a child...fear worked as a temporary strategy to make me behave, but it usually just made me better at doing my dirt My parents being proud of me was a much more effective motivator for me to do right and it usually had more long term effects. My point is that God doesn't want us to obey Him out of fear, but out of love and respect. Love and reverence will overcome fear anyday! God always tells us to fear not- He wants us to live life more abundantly. I got saved to be free, not still be in bondage to anything I still sin because every human does, but I turn away from sin and ask for forgiveness much faster than I did before I fully understood grace. Therefore, my relationship with God is restored much faster and I am less likely to fall even deeper into sin, so they don't become strongholds. Just thought I should share my personal journey with you since you seem so conflicted about this topic Pray and keep seeking

 

[Rainbow Dash]

Christ came to fulfill the law. That is why He summed to Commandments up in 2.

Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and Love your neighbor as yourself. These are the greatest Commandments.

If we love God with all that we are, we will not willfully sin because we dont want to hurt the one we love, not saying we won't get angry, have a bad thought, or do something that displeases Him but when we do sin and fall short, we know that we can run to Him and not away from Him. He loves us and we know that He loves us because of our relationship with Him and spending time in His presence and His Word.

He wishes that none perish but that we all come to repentance because we love Him. When I was dealing with bitterness. I knew it was wrong but I allowed it in, I had to run to Him for healing and deliverance and not allow condemnation to keep me in sin. He is always waiting with open arms.

 

[Poohbear]

Poohbear

It sounds like you are afraid if you believe you can't lose your salvation, then you won't have incentive to "behave" and not sin. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it is just what I have sensed from the posts. In my past, I struggled with legalism because I was afraid if I believed differently then I wouldn't act right. In reality, it kept me enslaved to my sin nature because I became very judgemental and was guilty of other "righteous" sins in trying to avoid sin, if that makes any sense. This eventually eroded my relationship with God. When I eventually started committing the sins of the very people I judged, it made me feel so guilty that it created a giant gulf between God and I. It got so bad that I couldn't even hear God anymore and I felt so lost. But when I got to my lowest point, I finally let those ideas go and came to God humbly asking for help and insight. And He accepted me back and my mindset completely changed.

LilMissSunshine5 - Thanks for sharing your personal journey.

To address the bolded part above... I have initially been taught once saved always saved and that we should not sin because of what Christ has done for us.

As I got older, the teachings started to change from what I was initially taught to "we are forgiven of past, present, and future sins" and "we are sinners saved by grace". That to me means "license to sin".

And I've had a similar experience as you. As I got older, I didn't sin intentionally so that grace may abound. I believe I sinned because of human nature as well. But it started to play on my mind when it came to repentance. I felt like I was not repenting if I went back to the same sin.

For example, I never used profanity as a child. Not even in high school or really in college. In my later years in college is when I started using curse words. Then it got worse after graduating. I've prayed to stop but would go back and use bad words. Eventually, I stopped asking for forgiveness of this sin and started feeling like I wasn't a true Christian. Right now, I'm trying to exercise self-control and not use curse words anymore. I know I can do it because I've never curse at my parents, nor at work, nor when I was in school. I only cussed around friends and a few close family members. I feel like there must be a bad spirit in me or something.

So to a certain extent, I would say yes to the bolded because of what I've experienced. It's like believing in "once saved always saved" made me lose my incentive to behave or not sin if you know what I mean... but I would also say no to the bolded because I want and desire to experience holiness, walking in the Spirit, and a true relationship with Christ and yielding to his ways as a Christian.... not the sin, guilt, and misery as a Christian.

I'm probably not making any sense anymore. I need to go to sleep....

 

[CoilyFields]

LilMissSunshine5 you are taking words right outta my mouth girl!

Poohbear I thank God for you and your journey sweetie. We all have doubts and confusion at times and I am so glad that we can discuss them here freely without condemnation or shame.

We've actually been talking about this a lot in my bible studies so the subject is fresh in my mind.

1. even if we thought that after we accepted Christ that if we sinned we would go to hell...did that ever stop us from sinning? Nope! lol Fear was not strong enough to keep us "holy".

2. Jesus has erased the PENALTY of our ETERNAL consequence of sin (death in the form of eternal seperation from God...hell) but he HAS NOT erased the IMMEDIATE EARTHLY consequences of our sins. Honey we are punished for the sins we commit on earth while we are here! As a matter of fact God expects more out of us than he does those who dont know him. So we have the conviction of the HOly Ghost to deal with AND the seperation from our father when we sin (besides the consequences)

So rest assured...once saved always saved does not mean our path while here on earth will be smooth while we sin...we create the bumps in the road and will most definately have to travel them!!!!

 

[Poohbear]

LilMissSunshine5 you are taking words right outta my mouth girl!

Poohbear I thank God for you and your journey sweetie. We all have doubts and confusion at times and I am so glad that we can discuss them here freely without condemnation or shame.

We've actually been talking about this a lot in my bible studies so the subject is fresh in my mind.

1. even if we thought that after we accepted Christ that if we sinned we would go to hell...did that ever stop us from sinning? Nope! lol Fear was not strong enough to keep us "holy".

2. Jesus has erased the PENALTY of our ETERNAL consequence of sin (death in the form of eternal seperation from God...hell) but he HAS NOT erased the IMMEDIATE EARTHLY consequences of our sins. Honey we are punished for the sins we commit on earth while we are here! As a matter of fact God expects more out of us than he does those who dont know him. So we have the conviction of the HOly Ghost to deal with AND the seperation from our father when we sin (besides the consequences)

So rest assured...once saved always saved does not mean our path while here on earth will be smooth while we sin...we create the bumps in the road and will most definately have to travel them!!!!

CoilyFields,

You made some great points in this quoted post above that cleared up alot of confusion in my mind! Thank you!

 

[CoilyFields]

Glad I could be of service!!!!

 

[nicolesanjuan]

So much to say here...so I won't say a Word. Well, ok, so you forced me...although, I really do hate these types of debates...anyhow, to the "once saved, always saved" theologians, please ask God for clarity. Gifts and callings come without repentence...you can have the gift to preach and teach like no one else and not have repented, but, the bible says that "Holiness, without which, no man shall see God"...The lake of fire and hell was not originally intended for humans, it was for the devil and his demons...but the bible says that Hell hath enlarged itself...why? to accomodate those who live in sin.....

The devil almost got me with this one when I first came into the "church"...but God, not the preacher, not the church people who had grew up in church and had become numb to the glory of God...but God, convicted me of sin...and gave me the specific scripture...2 Corinthians 7:1 KJV
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Holiness, people...

We can justify sin all day long...."nobody's perfect, everybody's dealing with something" but God is able to deliver us from sin, not just the penalty, and if we are not delivered it is because we really don't want to be. When I walked in sin...was I worthy of death (seperation from God eternally)...well, of course, I would would say no, because no child ever feels that they deserve punishment....but, ultimately his Word says that the wages of sin is death....you cannot walk in sin....it's holiness or hell!!! our church, Burning Bush International Ministries...just did a illustrative sermon on Hell (myths/facts)....bbimonline.org on youtube and facebook...

Soooo much to say.....

love you all,
Nicole

If I say that I am without sin...then I lie and do not know the truth...but if I confess my sins he is faithful and just to FORGIVE me and to CLEANSE me from all unrighteousness.

 

[Brittneynicole7952]

The important thing to consider is what Jesus said, Mat. 5.30. There are many temptations in the world, ones in which many Christians deal with on a day to day basis. Does this mean that you are "off the hook" for your one sin that tempts you more than anything?? No. God does not work like that, if you are a willing vessel God will take that desire away, if its something that you really want. There are no excuses, when you can achieve anything with prayer. With God, all things are possible. I mean you will be presented with the temptation, to test you...but this is for strength. The thing is, sex is a beautiful thing that God created for HUSBAND and WIFE only, because it is that intimate.