Flat ironing is considered Indirect Heat???

[TaurusAngel]

I guess i'm the only one who can see a true ceramic being a form of indirect heat. The question is, what brands are considered to be truly ceramic? I'm thinking those would be high up in the price range.

 

[MoMo]

I guess i'm the only one who can see a true ceramic being a form of indirect heat. The question is, what brands are considered to be truly ceramic? I'm thinking those would be high up in the price range.

I believe this may be true. Some irons have baked layers of ceramic but the FHI Runway and another Iron (can't think of the name) are made out of entirely ceramic, hence the price.

 

[PGirl]

I guess i'm the only one who can see a true ceramic being a form of indirect heat. The question is, what brands are considered to be truly ceramic? I'm thinking those would be high up in the price range.

I see it too. The fully ceramic irons do work differently in the way the heat is presented to the hair. They are a better choice if flat ironing is for you. I don't know why other than I know metal gets "hot spots" and ceramic does not.

I don't want people to think that it's okay to flat iron daily and expect waist length hair. But if you do decide to flat iron occasionally, then definitely pay the money for a good iron. Don't go buy a "ceramic" iron that is really mostly metal like the Revlon one at Target. Get one that is ceramic throughout like the Chi or other professional iron.

My goal is to prove that having a solid overall regimen including DCs, moisturizing, protein, Henna and daily water and vitamins will create enough strength in my relaxed 4a hair to flat iron 1x per week and still retain health, thickness AND length.

My journey began July 2008 so more to come!

 

[gissellr78]

I was on youtube.com and a stylist named "Askdwayne" was saying that flat ironing with a ceramic iron is "indirect heat". I was shocked at this because I have always thought flat ironing was considered direct heat. So then, I did a google search for "flat irons" and "indirect heat" and up popped an ad for Babyliss flat irons and it was marketed as indirect heat.

http://www.misikko.com/babyliss-tourmaline-flat-iron.html

I know heat is heat and too much is always bad.... but this just didn't make sense to me so I thought I would ask the hair experts to see if I am crazy. If flat ironing is indirect heat then maybe it isn't much worse than a hood dryer???? How can that be?

Could this mean that a Chi (or other true ceramic) flat iron 1x per week perhaps isn't as bad as I thought???

Flat ironing is direct heat...is touching the hair right?

 

[PGirl]

Flat ironing is direct heat...is touching the hair right?

Maybe I should re-phrase....What he said was that flat ironing with a fully ceramic flat is indirect heat. Other types are considered direct heat.

The point is that if you are going to use a flat iron get the professional grade because it's not a rumor that scientifically it is better for your hair than the cheaper ones mostly made of metal.

 

[chebaby]

well i dont know if it is or isnt but i do know that i have been flat ironing once a week with my FHI and CHI with no i'll effects. when i first started taking care of my hair about 6-7 months ago, i was past sl but not quite apl. now im about 1 1/2 inches from bsl. i wash and deep condition my hair before i flat iron and my hair is growing.

 

[lwilliams1922]

my chi is not direct heat JUST as this plate of cookies is not fattening

1984: If you say it enough times it becomes truth right?

 

[PGirl]

my chi is not direct heat JUST as this plate of cookies is not fattening

1984: If you say it enough times it becomes truth right?

Wow the sarcasm...

I was just curious about this topic and thought others might be able to share info. Sorry to bore you.

 

[JustKiya]

I'd love to hear the science on how applying something hot to your hair is not direct heat - are they redefining direct?

If you can press the ceramic plates against your skin, hold for three seconds, and repeat that three times without pain, blistering, or burning, then okay, I can see how that might be considered indirect heat.

Otherwise, I'm giving that one a real sideeye.

ETA: I strongly suspect that what 'we' consider direct/indirect heat on the hair board, and what 'science' considers direct/indirect heat are very different. Either way, it can burn, though. I'm working some googlefuu now, because I'm confused.

 

[lwilliams1922]

Wow the sarcasm...

I was just curious about this topic and thought others might be able to share info. Sorry to bore you.

no no no PGirl, that wasnt meant to be sarcastic. It was more to be funny. I'm interested in hearing debate about it, I just couldnt help the cookie bit.


Can you tell I really want some of the cookies my kids were given today??

I'll just eat one of those rice crispy treats and it will be all good.

 

[JustKiya]

So, I came across this:

Radiant heat is simply a form of energy that heats objects directly through a process called conversion, without having to heat the air in between. Radiant heat is also called infrared energy (IR). The infrared segment of the electromagnetic spectrum is divided into 3 segments by wave length, measured in microns or micrometers (a micron = 1/1,000,000 of meter): 0.076 – 1.5 microns = near or close; 1.5 – 5.6 = intermediate; 5.6-1,000= far or long wave infrared. The infrared segment of the electromagnetic spectrum occurs just below or "infra" to red light, which we perceive as heat. Our sun produces most of its energy output in the infrared segment of the spectrum. Our atmosphere allows IR rays in the 7-14 micron range to safely reach the earth’s surface. When warmed, the earth radiates infrared rays in the 7-14 micron band with its peak output at 10 microns.
The sun is the principal source of radiant energy that we experience daily. Have you ever been outside on a partly cloudy spring day of about 50 deg? And felt quite comfortable when suddenly the sun was obscured by a cloud? Although the air temperature had not had time to drop, you felt chilled, as the cloud would not let the warming infrared rays through to reach you. The infrared heat in your FIR heat sauna is just like the heat from our sun or that which our own bodies produce as they burn fuel to keep us warm. The source of infrared heat in your infrared sauna is actually a ceramic tube or cube, warmed by an electrical wire embedded within it. This zircon ceramic emitting tube is shielded by a metallic grill that is covered by a soft coating of suede-ex, and is safe to touch while it is operating.


Now, I know this is talking about a sauna, but none of the hair related link I saw got into this much detail. So, maybe the 'regular' flat irons are heating the air, and that hot air is heating your hair, whereas the ceramic irons are directly heating your hair with infrared rays, without actually heating the air.

Either way, it seems to me that your hair would get hot - and if your hair is heated, that's the start of heat damage - infrared or not.

Shoot. If there was a flat iron out there that was GUARANTEED to not be able to heat damage your hair, I suspect there would be a whole lot more naturals flat-ironing, $100+ iron, or not.

 

[Artemis]

Anytime ceramic or infrared heat issues come up, I have to post this...FYI

http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?p=1916470#post1916470

I also found this
http://www.myhairstylingtools.com/blog/infrared-heat-for-styling-hair/

and this...
http://www.chimachine4u.com/fir.html

 

[shtow]

I see it too. The fully ceramic irons do work differently in the way the heat is presented to the hair. They are a better choice if flat ironing is for you. I don't know why other than I know metal gets "hot spots" and ceramic does not.

I don't want people to think that it's okay to flat iron daily and expect waist length hair. But if you do decide to flat iron occasionally, then definitely pay the money for a good iron. Don't go buy a "ceramic" iron that is really mostly metal like the Revlon one at Target. Get one that is ceramic throughout like the Chi or other professional iron.

My goal is to prove that having a solid overall regimen including DCs, moisturizing, protein, Henna and daily water and vitamins will create chrome://foxytunes-public/content/signatures/signature-button.png Smilies look:
enough strength in my relaxed 4a hair to flat iron 1x per week and still retain health, thickness AND length.

My journey began July 2008 so more to come!

we share the same goal!!!!

 

[Artemis]

So, I came across this:

Radiant heat is simply a form of energy that heats objects directly through a process called conversion, without having to heat the air in between. Radiant heat is also called infrared energy (IR). The infrared segment of the electromagnetic spectrum is divided into 3 segments by wave length, measured in microns or micrometers (a micron = 1/1,000,000 of meter): 0.076 – 1.5 microns = near or close; 1.5 – 5.6 = intermediate; 5.6-1,000= far or long wave infrared. The infrared segment of the electromagnetic spectrum occurs just below or "infra" to red light, which we perceive as heat. Our sun produces most of its energy output in the infrared segment of the spectrum. Our atmosphere allows IR rays in the 7-14 micron range to safely reach the earth’s surface. When warmed, the earth radiates infrared rays in the 7-14 micron band with its peak output at 10 microns.
The sun is the principal source of radiant energy that we experience daily. Have you ever been outside on a partly cloudy spring day of about 50 deg? And felt quite comfortable when suddenly the sun was obscured by a cloud? Although the air temperature had not had time to drop, you felt chilled, as the cloud would not let the warming infrared rays through to reach you. The infrared heat in your FIR heat sauna is just like the heat from our sun or that which our own bodies produce as they burn fuel to keep us warm. The source of infrared heat in your infrared sauna is actually a ceramic tube or cube, warmed by an electrical wire embedded within it. This zircon ceramic emitting tube is shielded by a metallic grill that is covered by a soft coating of suede-ex, and is safe to touch while it is operating.


Now, I know this is talking about a sauna, but none of the hair related link I saw got into this much detail. So, maybe the 'regular' flat irons are heating the air, and that hot air is heating your hair, whereas the ceramic irons are directly heating your hair with infrared rays, without actually heating the air.

Either way, it seems to me that your hair would get hot - and if your hair is heated, that's the start of heat damage - infrared or not.

Shoot. If there was a flat iron out there that was GUARANTEED to not be able to heat damage your hair, I suspect there would be a whole lot more naturals flat-ironing, $100+ iron, or not.

Ok, this has been discussed a whole lot and normally I would have the link to the thread I'm referring to, but the search engine cannot find it

But the hair inherently has a temperature threshold. Using far infrared heat plus a silicone based heat protection product prevents damage because 1) the degree/quality of heat is on a different scale than if using a metal/marcel type of heated tool [by this I mean that it takes less heat do the work] and 2) the temperature thresholds of dimethicone and cyclomethicone are far greater than the temperature of a far infrared heated tool. The "damage" that occurs from this tool is from novices constantly running the tool over the hair, thusly increasing the temperature of the hair beyond the protectant's threshold and then breaking down into the hair's temperature threshold.

So one or two passes of a "true" ceramic/tourmaline/silver heated tool at a reasonable temp (350 or less generally speaking) will not damage the hair. It's when you start dealing with other factors (human error, or previously damaged hair) that you start to grey up the issue...

Hope this makes sense

Edit: So like I deduced before, if you are talking about on a molecular level, then yes, it's indirect heat. But you can't be all free-flow with that phrase because not everyone knows what that means. So for the everyday users, it still must be classified as direct heat. It is just less direct than a marcel or gold n hot. (I personally feel the same way about hooded dryers, but that is another thread ...)

A similar debate is out there regarding protein treatments vs. reconstructors. Technically they are not the same, but when discussing here on the board or with "civilians" they are described as being the same thing for simplicity's sake. It's usually not a good idea to confuse an ignorant or uninterested person

 

[msa]

I am still not getting it. Someone please break it down.

If a heated flat iron is pressed against your hair, how is that indirect? I'm not talking about the type of heat, I'm talking about the process. The type of heat used may be considered "indirect" (even though I'm having a hard time believing that), but how is the process any different just because you use a different type of heat? I mean, it's still actually touching your hair.

I don't even use heat ever and don't own any heat tools, but I'm still interested in the answer. I just don't get it. I do know that if I ever want to straighten my hair I will be purchasing a FHI Runway since that's fully ceramic.

 

[SparklingFlame]

I am still not getting it. Someone please break it down.

If a heated flat iron is pressed against your hair, how is that indirect? I'm not talking about the type of heat, I'm talking about the process. The type of heat used may be considered "indirect" (even though I'm having a hard time believing that), but how is the process any different just because you use a different type of heat? I mean, it's still actually touching your hair.

I don't even use heat ever and don't own any heat tools, but I'm still interested in the answer. I just don't get it. I do know that if I ever want to straighten my hair I will be purchasing a FHI Runway since that's fully ceramic.

I think of it this way:

If I put that hot iron against my skin, thats direct heat so.........if I put a flat iron against my hair its direct heat.

Am I wrong??

 

[MizzBrown]

I wanna know who makes SOLID ceramic plates?

 

[Artemis]

I am still not getting it. Someone please break it down.

If a heated flat iron is pressed against your hair, how is that indirect? I'm not talking about the type of heat, I'm talking about the process. The type of heat used may be considered "indirect" (even though I'm having a hard time believing that), but how is the process any different just because you use a different type of heat? I mean, it's still actually touching your hair.

I don't even use heat ever and don't own any heat tools, but I'm still interested in the answer. I just don't get it. I do know that if I ever want to straighten my hair I will be purchasing a FHI Runway since that's fully ceramic.

^^^This is my point:

For conventional purposes---In the literal sense, yes! It is direct heat. You are putting a heated appliance on your hair.

However, the details is that the type of heat emitted from the appliance is not direct heat in the sense that the air around the hair molecules is what is heated not the hair. The air heats the hair from the inside out, which means that less heat is used, and the cuticle stays intact [which is needed for the appearance of healthy hair]. Metal irons heat from the outside inwards, so the cuticle is fried so much just to get to the inner core of the hair so the hair can change shape that the hair is damaged in the end. And the hair heats up to a higher degree than is needed to get the job done.

In very elementary terms: Think about when you sit next to your fireplace to warm up. You don't have to actually stand in the fireplace to get warm, you stand near it; in most cases you don't need to even stand that close or for very long, so the concentration of heat that does the work [to warm you up to a comfortable/effective temp] is a lesser degree than if you were literally in the fireplace.

Another way to see it is that the heat from a true ceramic iron circulates heat around the hair molecularly the way a hooded dryer circulates the heat literally.

Does that make sense?

 

[Artemis]

I wanna know who makes SOLID ceramic plates?

The ones I know off the top of my head are: FHI, Solia, Sedu. Those are the only ones I'd mess with because they are solid ceramic AND tourmaline, which is even more effective/efficient. And my stylist told me yesterday that the FHI nano has silver in it too but IMO that's an added benefit for a stylist, since silver is added for extra anti-microbial purposes. Tourmaline/ceramic is effective enough for that for at home use (one user).

 

[destiny616]

The ones I know off the top of my head are: FHI, Solia, Sedu. Those are the only ones I'd mess with because they are solid ceramic AND tourmaline, which is even more effective/efficient. And my stylist told me yesterday that the FHI nano has silver in it too but IMO that's an added benefit for a stylist, since silver is added for extra anti-microbial purposes. Tourmaline/ceramic is effective enough for that for at home use (one user).

the solia, sedu and fhi are ceramic coated. the fhi runway is the only fhi that has solid ceramic plates. the h2pro luxury, the fhi runway, ghd mk4 and the hana elite have solid ceramic plates. amika, jilbere de paris, vidal sasson, conair and rusk also have solid ceramic models.

 

[anon123]

So really, rather than saying it's indirect heat, he just means it's a less damaging form of direct heat, no? I mean, i don't understand the fireplace analogy because in that case couldn't you just put the flat iron near the hair and it could do it's job? Also, I don't understand how the air heats the hair from the inside out only. Could you explain that a bit more? From JustKiya's post it seems just the opposite, that the object is heated without the air being heated, though I don't understand how that works, either.

I'm curious to understand how such a thing could work, though I guess we could just be satisfied knowing the ceramic tool causes less damage.

 

[Artemis]

the solia, sedu and fhi are ceramic coated. the fhi runway is the only fhi that has solid ceramic plates. the h2pro luxury, the fhi runway, ghd mk4 and the hana elite have solid ceramic plates. amika, jilbere de paris, vidal sasson, conair and rusk also have solid ceramic models.

Thanks for the clarification

It personally doesn't make any difference to me, since the one I have has like 3 or 6 layers of ceramic and is ceramic/tourmaline, so IMO is just as effective as 100%. I personally see no reason to get 100% unless I was a stylist.

But for those that want 100%, this is good to know.

Edit: Which Jilbere? I have scratched through the one I used to have, and it was coated...TIA.

 

[Artemis]

So really, rather than saying it's indirect heat, he just means it's a less damaging form of direct heat, no? I mean, i don't understand the fireplace analogy because in that case couldn't you just put the flat iron near the hair and it could do it's job? Also, I don't understand how the air heats the hair from the inside out only. Could you explain that a bit more? From JustKiya's post it seems just the opposite, that the object is heated without the air being heated, though I don't understand how that works, either.

I'm curious to understand how such a thing could work, though I guess we could just be satisfied knowing the ceramic tool causes less damage.

Yes, but he said it from the perspective of a cosmetologist, someone who must understand the basis of hair and hair science. This is chemistry. My intentions with the fireplace analogy was to describes what happens on a molecular, ionic level.

JustKiya's post is describing how the heater is built, the foundation of the technology. I am talking about how the heat from the heater affects the hair.

That is why I said before that he shouldn't have said it the way he did b/c not everyone looks at hair that way The technology is way deeper than the general consumer's understanding

 

[Artemis]

This ceramic heat technology topic will probably end up becoming an article/thread that I will collaborate on with Gymfreak, but here's this link gives some info on ionic compounds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionic_bond

I PM'd Gym so hopefully she could give a more detailed explanation...Put her degree to good use.

Now if anyone wants to move to discuss the psychological ramifications of black hair care industry, I'll be around

 

[Muse]

Ok, this has been discussed a whole lot and normally I would have the link to the thread I'm referring to, but the search engine cannot find it

But the hair inherently has a temperature threshold. Using far infrared heat plus a silicone based heat protection product prevents damage because 1) the degree/quality of heat is on a different scale than if using a metal/marcel type of heated tool [by this I mean that it takes less heat do the work] and 2) the temperature thresholds of dimethicone and cyclomethicone are far greater than the temperature of a far infrared heated tool. The "damage" that occurs from this tool is from novices constantly running the tool over the hair, thusly increasing the temperature of the hair beyond the protectant's threshold and then breaking down into the hair's temperature threshold.

So one or two passes of a "true" ceramic/tourmaline/silver heated tool at a reasonable temp (350 or less generally speaking) will not damage the hair. It's when you start dealing with other factors (human error, or previously damaged hair) that you start to grey up the issue...

Hope this makes sense

Edit: So like I deduced before, if you are talking about on a molecular level, then yes, it's indirect heat. But you can't be all free-flow with that phrase because not everyone knows what that means. So for the everyday users, it still must be classified as direct heat. It is just less direct than a marcel or gold n hot. (I personally feel the same way about hooded dryers, but that is another thread ...)

A similar debate is out there regarding protein treatments vs. reconstructors. Technically they are not the same, but when discussing here on the board or with "civilians" they are described as being the same thing for simplicity's sake. It's usually not a good idea to confuse an ignorant or uninterested person

Artemis you rock! That is soooo true but I never thought of that. I wish Mr. Sabino would read this thread because he does say to turn the iron up to 450 degrees and he says his silicone mix can handle that, but I'm starting to think it can handle that with one pass only. Which means if I am going over it 2 or 3 times and get damage it wasn't his product but me. How can one figure out the exact temp that say dimethicone can take before it breaks down?

 

[MizzBrown]

Artemis you rock! That is soooo true but I never thought of that. I wish Mr. Sabino would read this thread because he does say to turn the iron up to 450 degrees and he says his silicone mix can handle that, but I'm starting to think it can handle that with one pass only. Which means if I am going over it 2 or 3 times and get damage it wasn't his product but me. How can one figure out the exact temp that say dimethicone can take before it breaks down?

I wanna know this too because i have a problem figuring out how much Chi silk to put on my hair when using my generic Chi. Will a quarter size amount do or do i need to put in EACH section of my hair?

Or do i just rub some Chi silk on my roots since i just flat iron my roots? How do u know u put enough on to not break down?

 

[destiny616]

Thanks for the clarification

It personally doesn't make any difference to me, since the one I have has like 3 or 6 layers of ceramic and is ceramic/tourmaline, so IMO is just as effective as 100%. I personally see no reason to get 100% unless I was a stylist.

But for those that want 100%, this is good to know.

Edit: Which Jilbere? I have scratched through the one I used to have, and it was coated...TIA.

jilbere solid ceramic flat iron

http://www.sallybeauty.com/jilbere-flat-iron/JLBERE52,default,pd.html

 

[JustKiya]

Thank you Artemis - those were good explanations, and makes a little more sense. It's still direct heat, it's just less damaging direct heat because of the mode of transmission of the heat.

 

[Artemis]

Thanks Destiny! I've never seen that one. It looks hardcore, like it means business

 

[Artemis]

Artemis you rock! That is soooo true but I never thought of that. I wish Mr. Sabino would read this thread because he does say to turn the iron up to 450 degrees and he says his silicone mix can handle that, but I'm starting to think it can handle that with one pass only. Which means if I am going over it 2 or 3 times and get damage it wasn't his product but me. How can one figure out the exact temp that say dimethicone can take before it breaks down?

Mr. Sabino is right. The concentrations of the dimethicone and cyclomethicone are such that hair can be damage free if done correctly. That's why he spent so much time creating his product.

Without going into a lab with your hair and a research grant to determine the formula by which to calculate your ideal temp I'm going to say "It depends on your hair."

But you should be able to determine this by doing your own hair. Just play around with the temp and use whatever one allows you to get the hair straight to your liking in ONE pass of the iron. Maximum two. And your hair should not be too hot to touch right after you take the iron off that section of hair. Use common sense caution, y'know?

I talked about this in more detail last year. Let me see if I can find that thread...