No such thing as protein overload?

[butterfly3582]

Personally I believe to much of anything is bad. That can be protein or moisture.

To me saying you can't have proteind overload and than saying you have to have mositure/protein balance does not make sense. I mean balance implies that it is in the right amounts. So if you have too much of something (including protein) you are out of balance.

Some people require a more protein than others. So I believe that people balances are different. So what may be protein overload for one person, may be protein balance for another.

 

[Mis007]

Don't understand what protein overload means, once you use/need protein to rectify a problem hair becomes better (i am sure people can tell of any improvements or not in their own hair) discontinue or adjust usage...great info gym taking notes ​

 

[girlyprincess23]

Sorry I don't know if you were referring to me, Cathy Howse, or another poster but I don't mind calling it what it is. To tell you the truth I really don't know which is why I wrote the topic as a question, I am inclined to believe no at this point but I am keeping an open mind and taking it all in as well. I just want to explore this and gather more experiences/opinions. Thanks for posting want to hear all sides

ETA: Ok sorry I reread my original post and it looks like you were referring to what I wrote about CH. I see where you feel that she is skirting around using the term because basically if you cut out the other protein(leave ins, conditioners) then you prevent yourself into going into overload, but there is a such thing. Did I get that right?

No I wasn't responding to you. I know you are asking a valid question. I was just saying that for CH what she is describing (to me anyways) is protein overload (or how you get there) she is just not using that terminology because I'm not sure but I would be willing to bet that that term is one of our contrived LHCF phrases that we all love so much. Also I jus think that overusing protein can lead to (depending on the gravity of your overusage) protein overload, which, strangely enough, is best described as a moisture deficiency. So if you want to call it a moisture deficiency (which can be caused by any number of things) or protein overload to more specifically describe your moisture deficiency and its cause then that is up to you. So I'm not speaking to what one would have to do to keep theirselves from going into protein overload because everyone is too different all I'm saying is that it is possible and people should really pay attention and understand the products they are putting in their hair, which is what I had to learn, the hard way. HTH

 

[taz007]

How do I "ignore" posters on this board? I need to stop reading consistently negative posts.

Thanks Gym for the fantastic responses!

 

[AtlantaJJ]

It's not a popular opinion, but I can agree with it. I've said this from the beginning and will stand by it. I think protein has a bad reputation and alot of us automatically default to think "protein overload".

Dry hair doesn't mean protein overload, it means you need to up your moisture. There's a difference. Breaking hair doesn't automatically mean protein overload, it can mean too much manipulation, weak damaged fraile hair that NEEDS a protein treatment.

I like to think hair as a Jenga stack. Ya'll remember that game. Each time we relax or abuse direct heat, we take away important blocks out of the Jenga stack and eventually that mug will crumble (read: breakage). It must be rebuilt with protein.

There is a thread asking us to list the product that turned our hair around. Most, if not all of the replies I saw reference a protein product of some type. As the hair becomes healthier, we may not need it as often, but occasionally we, as relaxed heads, need it. I can't speak for naturals.

What we must educate ourselves on is the different types of proteins and their role for our hair. Some proteins attract moisture and give shine, others deeply penetrate and rebuild. It's important to remember that whenever we use them, our moisture products, must compensate for them and we'll be fine.

*slowly backs out of the room and waits for eruption of disagreement*

I'm a fine haired natural and I agree with this thread and this post.

I have to use the right effective moisture after my protein treatments. I know that I will retain my length now that I am using protein reconstructors, I do not have any dryness and my hair is strong, without knots, and with out it snapping when I comb it, wet or dry !

 

[Aggie]

It's not a popular opinion, but I can agree with it. I've said this from the beginning and will stand by it. I think protein has a bad reputation and alot of us automatically default to think "protein overload".

Dry hair doesn't mean protein overload, it means you need to up your moisture. There's a difference. Breaking hair doesn't automatically mean protein overload, it can mean too much manipulation, weak damaged fraile hair that NEEDS a protein treatment.

I like to think hair as a Jenga stack. Ya'll remember that game. Each time we relax or abuse direct heat, we take away important blocks out of the Jenga stack and eventually that mug will crumble (read: breakage). It must be rebuilt with protein.

There is a thread asking us to list the product that turned our hair around. Most, if not all of the replies I saw reference a protein product of some type. As the hair becomes healthier, we may not need it as often, but occasionally we, as relaxed heads, need it. I can't speak for naturals.

What we must educate ourselves on is the different types of proteins and their role for our hair. Some proteins attract moisture and give shine, others deeply penetrate and rebuild. It's important to remember that whenever we use them, our moisture products, must compensate for them and we'll be fine.

*slowly backs out of the room and waits for eruption of disagreement*

I agree with you Your Cheeziness. I find that whenever I increase the use of proteins on my hair based on what I think it needs coupled with ample moisture, it thrives like you wouldn't believe. Case in point, I just joined Patricia's "Protein is my friend" thread and already I can see the immense difference in the overall health and shine of my hair. Great insight here girl, thanks a million.

 

[Aggie]

well I don't know about anyone else and, for me, there is such a thing as protein overload. I mean what she is describing can lead to protein overload. Constantly using proteins without a balancing moisturizer will lead to protein overload. Protein overload for me is when you have used so much protein your hair has next to no moisture in it and requires intense moisturizing treatments for a period of time to regain your protein/ moisture balance. So whether she wants to call it protein overload or not (as it is probably an LHCF phrase) it does exsist and she is describing how it happens. I can say this because I have experienced it. At the beginning of last year I was using a DC that I thought was moisturizing and it wasn't (ORS Mayo) and then I was also using henna and then when the breaks started I began using Aphogee two step treatment monthly because that is what I was told to do to combat breakage, but there was nothing I could do to stop those little half of hairs from covering my hands every time I touched my head. Then i saw something on protein overload after I figured out what ORS mayo was and thanks to some good advice (thank you Aggie) I had to go through some intense moisturizing with Nexxus Humectress like whole head baggying overnight and other things for like two weeks and voila drastically reduced breakage. So whether she wants to call it protein overload or not I know it is real and I think she is saying it is real she just isn't calling it by the name of "protein overload". Also I did join the protein is my friend because it is, because protein is very useful I actually use a reconstructor every week now (because after the incident I just described I stayed far far faarr away from protein and of course my hair was mushy and gross and breaking a little) and my hair is now so soft and shiny with that elusive 0% breakage now that I know how much to use and when and which products. And that's my $.02

Firstly, you're welcomed girlyprincess23. Secondly, I agree, protein really is our friend when used correctly. I am also a part of the protein is my friend thread and since joining it, I have much healthier looking hair with a whole lot more shine I might add. My sister just put her fingers all through my hair yesterday commenting on how healthy, shiny and pretty it looked. This made me feel so good that finally I am doing something really right with my hair and I don't have to go cowering in fear with using a little protein on it on a regualr basis. I keep it mild now anyway and my hair seem to love that much better. I learned too that my hair actually hates hardcore protein.

 

[Aggie]

No, not neccessarily. You can have too little moisture as well as too little protein. If you are chemically processing your hair and not conditioning, you will have moisture depletion as well as protein loss over time. This is where the replenishing conditioners come into play that are designed to increase both levels bit by bit.

But because protein and moisture work together to keep each other balanced, You can't be over moisturized and over protein treated at the same time because the two would cancel each other out. That is where the theory of no protein overload comes from....regardless of the strength of the protein, if you match that with a moisture product of equal magnitude, protein overload might not exist for you.

Very nicely put GF. I couldn't agree with you more.

Possibly. It could be a potato-pota(h)to debate. All I can speak for is myself and myself is not saying there is no such thing as a protein overload. I'm saying that the default answer to every single hair problem can't possibly be protein overload. Which is what I see alot of the various hairboards across the net. It's like protein is Agent Smith and moisture is Neo up in this mug. I'm just sayin...

This is so sadly true YC. The trick is understanding which proteins do what and finding it's equal moisture counterpart to use together as gymfreak stated above.

 

[Aggie]

Which ones attract moisture and which ones rebuild structure? Can you indicate what henna and vegetable proteins do?

Here you go - I copied and pasted this from another thread - can't remember which one - and put it in a Word document file:

PROTEINS USED ON HAIR


Here is a handy guide for understanding the different types of protein products.

All proteins are strengthening proteins to some degree but here are the more specific characteristics of these proteins:

Collagen Protein--known for increasing elasticity in the hair

Silk Protein--known for softening the hair

Wheat Protein--a moisturizing and strengthening protein known for increasing the hair's ability to maintain & receive moisture also.

Keratin Protein – this is responsible for keeping the hair strong and pliable. This is the strongest of the (hair product) proteins and is actually the one that hair is made from. This one re-structures hair that has been damaged or broken down by chemicals. It helps to replace the amino acid cysteine which is the main one lost during chemical processing. This is the heavy duty protein. If you see the following as an ingredient

*Vegetable protein -- Vegetable protein absorbs more easily into the hair shaft [than animal protein] and does not create build-up, leaves the hair very shiny, radiant, luxuriant, and healthy.

*Animal protein -- Animal protein breaks down into fatty acids, which coat the hair and create residual build-up.

Silk Amino Acids/Protein--Natural silk is the strongest, natural fiber known to mankind. Discovered in Japan and has been used for centuries in all kinds of products that require durability. Silk has a tiny molecule that can penetrate the entire hair shaft deeper than all other proteins without adding any weight leaving the hair feeling clean and non-greasy
Keratin protein More In depth:

*a) Keratin protein--this will re-structure and strengthen the hair cuticle (the outer layer only & the most important layer)

The keratin in some reconstructors should not leave your hair hard like the Aphogee Treatment for damaged hair (which contains hydrolyzed animal protein). This treatment hardens on your hair for a reason and is used with mild heat. A moisturizing conditioner is a must with this in order to soften like Keracare's humecto.

Reconstructors that contain keratin and other proteins are supposed to have enough moisture to soften the hair therefore leaving your hair with a nice protein/moisture balance."


* Hydrolyzed Keratin Protein or Keratin Amino Acids--this means that the Keratin molecules have been broken down and are small enough to go beyond the cuticle and penetrate the hair shaft. It will strengthen all 3 layers of the hair. That is why the term "deep conditioning" technically only refers to this kind of treatment using penetrating proteins.

*c) Hydrolyzed Human Hair Keratin--This is an exact match for the keratin your hair has (or has lost due to chemical processing). This is the highest quality and most potent keratin that can be used in hair products.

If you use a lye relaxer you need conditioners that are a balance of moisture and protein. That is where the myth of moisture only came from, the whole box relaxer usage. If you are using no lye, you need more moisture than a lye relaxer user.

Moisture and Protein balance isn't about swinging to each extreme. You shouldn't try to go from super mushy to super hard. It’s too much stress on the hair and that is what causes weak spots, split ends, thinning and breakage. Moisture swells the hair strand. I know everyone is moisture happy but if you are moisturizing daily, deep conditioning with moisture at every wash for an hour, and co-washing with moisture every 2 days, you are doing too much. All you are doing is stretching out your hair and setting yourself up for breakage and thinning. If your hair doesn't have enough protein, it won't hold any moisture. If you keep on having to buy more and more moisture products looking for higher and higher levels of moisture, you need protein.

Also if your hair is stretched beyond repair, protein can only do so much. Staying consistent with reconstructors helps prevent too much natural protein loss over time (weathering of the cuticle). By definition, reconstructors and straight protein treatments fill in the cracks of the hair shaft that occur from protein loss (which then incites moisture loss). So if your hair is stretched 50x its natural threshold, you can try to repair it over time but if it still doesn't resolve all of the issue, don't go back to the excessive moisture treatments. It'll just be time for a trim.

 

[Patricia]

Here you go - I copied and pasted this from another thread - can't remember which one - and put it in a Word document file:

PROTEINS USED ON HAIR


Here is a handy guide for understanding the different types of protein products.

All proteins are strengthening proteins to some degree but here are the more specific characteristics of these proteins:

Collagen Protein--known for increasing elasticity in the hair

Silk Protein--known for softening the hair

Wheat Protein--a moisturizing and strengthening protein known for increasing the hair's ability to maintain & receive moisture also.

Keratin Protein – this is responsible for keeping the hair strong and pliable. This is the strongest of the (hair product) proteins and is actually the one that hair is made from. This one re-structures hair that has been damaged or broken down by chemicals. It helps to replace the amino acid cysteine which is the main one lost during chemical processing. This is the heavy duty protein. If you see the following as an ingredient

*Vegetable protein -- Vegetable protein absorbs more easily into the hair shaft [than animal protein] and does not create build-up, leaves the hair very shiny, radiant, luxuriant, and healthy.

*Animal protein -- Animal protein breaks down into fatty acids, which coat the hair and create residual build-up.

Silk Amino Acids/Protein--Natural silk is the strongest, natural fiber known to mankind. Discovered in Japan and has been used for centuries in all kinds of products that require durability. Silk has a tiny molecule that can penetrate the entire hair shaft deeper than all other proteins without adding any weight leaving the hair feeling clean and non-greasy
Keratin protein More In depth:

*a) Keratin protein--this will re-structure and strengthen the hair cuticle (the outer layer only & the most important layer)

The keratin in some reconstructors should not leave your hair hard like the Aphogee Treatment for damaged hair (which contains hydrolyzed animal protein). This treatment hardens on your hair for a reason and is used with mild heat. A moisturizing conditioner is a must with this in order to soften like Keracare's humecto.

Reconstructors that contain keratin and other proteins are supposed to have enough moisture to soften the hair therefore leaving your hair with a nice protein/moisture balance."


* Hydrolyzed Keratin Protein or Keratin Amino Acids--this means that the Keratin molecules have been broken down and are small enough to go beyond the cuticle and penetrate the hair shaft. It will strengthen all 3 layers of the hair. That is why the term "deep conditioning" technically only refers to this kind of treatment using penetrating proteins.

*c) Hydrolyzed Human Hair Keratin--This is an exact match for the keratin your hair has (or has lost due to chemical processing). This is the highest quality and most potent keratin that can be used in hair products.

If you use a lye relaxer you need conditioners that are a balance of moisture and protein. That is where the myth of moisture only came from, the whole box relaxer usage. If you are using no lye, you need more moisture than a lye relaxer user.

Moisture and Protein balance isn't about swinging to each extreme. You shouldn't try to go from super mushy to super hard. It’s too much stress on the hair and that is what causes weak spots, split ends, thinning and breakage. Moisture swells the hair strand. I know everyone is moisture happy but if you are moisturizing daily, deep conditioning with moisture at every wash for an hour, and co-washing with moisture every 2 days, you are doing too much. All you are doing is stretching out your hair and setting yourself up for breakage and thinning. If your hair doesn't have enough protein, it won't hold any moisture. If you keep on having to buy more and more moisture products looking for higher and higher levels of moisture, you need protein.

Also if your hair is stretched beyond repair, protein can only do so much. Staying consistent with reconstructors helps prevent too much natural protein loss over time (weathering of the cuticle). By definition, reconstructors and straight protein treatments fill in the cracks of the hair shaft that occur from protein loss (which then incites moisture loss). So if your hair is stretched 50x its natural threshold, you can try to repair it over time but if it still doesn't resolve all of the issue, don't go back to the excessive moisture treatments. It'll just be time for a trim.

THANKS AGGIE. GOOD INFO

 

[AtlantaJJ]

I am so glad that all this talk about protein is occurring at this time, because I am growing a new head full of hair after a bad relaxer incident, and I am working hard to retain every precious inch that I grow.

Now I know what I need to do increase length retention for my fine natural strands.

Most naturals run for the hills when it comes to protein, that would be a mistake for me over time. Thank goodness have been on a low mani routine up until this point or I would have surely lost length due to lack of protein.

I'm good now

 

[Aggie]

THANKS AGGIE. GOOD INFO

My pleasure sweetie.

 

[Aggie]

I am so glad that all this talk about protein is occurring at this time, because I am growing a new head full of hair after a bad relaxer incident, and I am working hard to retain every precious inch that I grow.

Now I know what I need to do increase length retention for my fine natural strands.

Most naturals run for the hills when it comes to protein, that would be a mistake for me over time. Thank goodness have been on a low mani routine up until this point or I would have surely lost length due to lack of protein.

I'm good now

Girl AJJ I know what you mean. I just made a decision to transition to texlaxed hair this month and the timing for me on all these talks about protein couldn't be better. I want to hold on to my length for as long as possible too but I know eventually, I will want it off my head completely.

 

[MonPetite]

No, not neccessarily. You can have too little moisture as well as too little protein. If you are chemically processing your hair and not conditioning, you will have moisture depletion as well as protein loss over time. This is where the replenishing conditioners come into play that are designed to increase both levels bit by bit.

But because protein and moisture work together to keep each other balanced, You can't be over moisturized and over protein treated at the same time because the two would cancel each other out. That is where the theory of no protein overload comes from....regardless of the strength of the protein, if you match that with a moisture product of equal magnitude, protein overload might not exist for you.

Very true!

I've done THREE Aphogee Two-Step treatments back to back in the SAME DAY (hence, the "back to back") and in between them I used a rich deep conditioner -I don't use the one that Aphogee makes.

My hair was the best it had been in ages. I knew I had to balance out insane amounts of protein with insane amounts of moisture. I did so well and had amazing hair for it.

I personally have never experienced protein overload no matter how much I use....

But I also wash and co-wash daily and have done so for the last five years.

Had I not BCed, I'd be WL heading onto TBL, so I know balance is definitely key. It still is as I return to the lengths I knew and those beyond.

 

[Healthb4Length]

Very true!

I've done THREE Aphogee Two-Step treatments back to back in the SAME DAY (hence, the "back to back") and in between them I used a rich deep conditioner -I don't use the one that Aphogee makes.

My hair was the best it had been in ages. I knew I had to balance out insane amounts of protein with insane amounts of moisture. I did so well and had amazing hair for it.

I personally have never experienced protein overload no matter how much I use....

But I also wash and co-wash daily and have done so for the last five years.

Had I not BCed, I'd be WL heading onto TBL, so I know balance is definitely key. It still is as I return to the lengths I knew and those beyond.

Golden you did aphogee 3x in one day? Are there any benefits to doing it back to back? I may try that one day.

 

[Patricia]

Very true!

I've done THREE Aphogee Two-Step treatments back to back in the SAME DAY (hence, the "back to back") and in between them I used a rich deep conditioner -I don't use the one that Aphogee makes.

My hair was the best it had been in ages. I knew I had to balance out insane amounts of protein with insane amounts of moisture. I did so well and had amazing hair for it.

I personally have never experienced protein overload no matter how much I use....

But I also wash and co-wash daily and have done so for the last five years.

Had I not BCed, I'd be WL heading onto TBL, so I know balance is definitely key. It still is as I return to the lengths I knew and those beyond.

Wow good to know it worked out for you

 

[Patricia]

Girl AJJ I know what you mean. I just made a decision to transition to texlaxed hair this month and the timing for me on all these talks about protein couldn't be better. I want to hold on to my length for as long as possible too but I know eventually, I will want it off my head completely.

For some reason when I relax my hair it never comes out bone straight. I leave it on for 15min and smooth it. I guess thats a good thing. This is how my hairlooked airdried the same day of my relaxer

 

[Aggie]

For some reason when I relax my hair it never comes out bone straight. I leave it on for 15min and smooth it. I guess thats a good thing. This is how my hairlooked airdried the same day of my relaxer

Wow you are lucky to have hair like this, maybe it's coarse and resistant?

 

[charmtreese]

I've read this thread almost in its entirety. And I would have to agree with those that suggest that using protein paired with the right amount of moisture is Ideal. I use protein (emergencee) weekly and DC with a moisturizing conditioner that does not contain protein. My hair couldn't be happier. If I decided to forgo my DC moisturizing treatment after my protein treatment my hair would be dry and brittle, that would not mean protein overload that would mean my hair was not properly moisturized after the treatment.

BTW: Im also a fine haired lady and protein is my friend!!! Thanks GYM

 

[Patricia]

Wow you are lucky to have hair like this, maybe it's coarse and resistant?

My hair is not course. I don't understand why this happens. I'm not mad though. My hair is fine and thin.

 

[Lexib]

Both views are just two sides of the same coin. What difference does it make whether you say your hair is dry b/c you've put in too much protein or you say it's dry b/c you haven't put in enough moisture? Either way, brittle breaking hair = your hair needs more moisture.

 

[gymfreak336]

Both views are just two sides of the same coin. What difference does it make whether you say your hair is dry b/c you've put in too much protein or you say it's dry b/c you haven't put in enough moisture? Either way, brittle breaking hair = your hair needs more moisture.

Not always. If there isn't enough protein in the hair strand to hold the moisture there isn't enough Humecto, Kenra, or Mizani moisturefuse that can help you. In fact, trying to moisturize DC you way out of that will make it worse because you will overswell the cuticle. Dryness, especially with chemically treated hair is often a symptom of something else.

 

[ebonylocs]

Hey ladies I was reading Cathy Howse's website and she says that there is no such thing as protein overload. If we experience brittle breaking hair it's because our moisturizers need to be reexamined... CH said a lot of people end up with dry hair after a protein treatment because they DC after with a cond. with protein in it or their leave in will have protein causing dryness or their DC/leave in may not have protein but it's just not sufficient enough for after protein treatments. Sometimes a moisturizer will work for us normally but after we do a protein treatment it may not work and perhaps we just need something heavier to use after protein treatments.

I've read the entire thread, and I still say it's "six of one and half dozen of the other." She is saying the same thing but just using different terminology. Saying, "you can't give your hair too much protein, you're just not moisturising it enough", is to me the same as saying "Do not give your hair more protein than it can handle at any particular point in time" (which is what I take people to mean when they say "Avoid protein overload." How much protein your hair can handle at any particular point in time is dependent on how much moisture is in it, and how much you get into in the *very* near future. Sooo... same thing.

See, this right here is what I don't get. Isn't it the same thing?? Like seriously, isn't it, or am I just loca???

No you're not loca. It's the same thing.

But because protein and moisture work together to keep each other balanced, You can't be over moisturized and over protein treated at the same time because the two would cancel each other out. That is where the theory of no protein overload comes from....regardless of the strength of the protein, if you match that with a moisture product of equal magnitude, protein overload might not exist for you.

Yes, but that's speaking theoretically. In practice, it's possible to put a shed-load of protein in your hair in one hour-long session, and then take weeks and weeks to balance it back out with repeated moisture treatments. So *in the interim* you have to deal with "protein overload" or protein-moisture imbalance, which to me is the more accurate term.

You know, I think we feel the need for threads like this because people don't read and respond to things in a balanced manner. I have been reading this board since 2005 and I never felt like I had to drown my hair in moisture. People are saying there is some moisture-moisture-and only moisture-mantra going on. Where? From the first I came here, I heard about protein-moisture balance. I started using a protein conditioner and a moisturising conditioner (or a mix) every time I washed (fortnightly as a natural, and now weekly as a relaxed head), and *never* stopped. I listen to my hair and give it more of one or the other depending on what's going on. If anyone was telling me that protein is the root of all evil, I must have missed it. I've seen ladies on here advising protein to those with mushy hair, while advising those who have over-proteined to get more moisture in. To me it's quite straightforward, BOTH are NECESSARY and must be BALANCED against each other.

 

[IDareT'sHair]

^^^^ I Totally Agree. It's finding "Balance" in your Hair Care Practices with All Things. Listen to, and Respond to, the Needs of Your Hair.

The Proper Protein/Moisture balance of your Hair is Essential to Healthy Hair.