Who's in Hell?

[Rainbow Dash]

You are objecting to what You believe the Catholic Church is teaching on purgatory and not on the teaching of our Church.
The teaching of the Catholic Church on purgatory is pretty clear: "Those who die in God's grace and friendship imperfectly purified, although they are assured of their eternal salvation, undergo a purification after death, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of God." Purgatory is for the saints. It is not a second chance. To enter purgatory you have to already be a saint.

Purgatory is not a place, it's a state. It is Jesus who takes us through purgatory. The cleansing fire of purgatory is the love of God.

Here are some scriptures talking of purification by fire
"If the work which any man has built on the foundation [which is Christ] survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3: 14-15).

“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the LORD, as in days gone by, as in former years.
Malachi 3:1-4

1 Corinthians 3:15 which says: “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” Clearly, the context of this verse is the testing of a man’s works by fire. The works that survive are the ones done for the glory of Christ and are called gold, silver and precious stones (Ephesians 2:10). All the other superfluous works are burned in fire and are called wood, hay and stubble. It is not man’s sins that are being purged, it is man’s spurious works that being burned and destroyed.

Malachi 3:1-4 is a promise of the coming of the Messiah,Jesus Christ, and of his forerunner John the Baptist. A reproof of the Jews for their corrupting God’s ordinances and sacrilegiously robbing him of his dues, with a charge to them to amend this matter, and a promise that, if they did, God would return in mercy to them He shall be like a refiner’s fire, which separates between the gold and the dross by melting the ore, or like fuller’s soap, which with much rubbing fetches the spots out of the cloth. Christ came to discover men, that the thoughts of many hearts might be revealed, to distinguish men, to separate between the precious and the vile,to send fire on the earth, not peace, but rather division, and that the things which cannot be shaken might remain. See what the effect of the trial will be that shall be made by the gospel.

He shall sit as a refiner. Christ by his gospel shall purify and reform his church, and by his Spirit working with it shall regenerate and cleanse it; for to this end he gave himself for the church, that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.

God’s Word leaves absolutely no possibility for sin to be purged away by anything other than the blood of Jesus Christ.

But the truth was that His death did everything! He paid the price in full. The Bible even says, "I write these things unto you so that you may know you have eternal life." (1 John 5:13)

Jesus said "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24)

 

[Galadriel]

To piggyback off of ktykaty's earlier post:

"All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven" (CCC 1030).

What does it mean to "die in God’s grace and friendship"?

The language of dying in God’s grace is another way of saying that when we die we must have faith in Christ, as Romans 10:9 says. But Paul did not intend his words in this text to be taken as the complete story. We have to interpret one text in the Bible in the light of the whole Bible.

1 Corinthians 3:14–15: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." The Latinate word purgatory means a purgation or burning by fire. Paul in these verses refers to a purgation process whereby a man is saved even though his works are burned away. This is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches. A person at death who still has personal faults must go through a period of purgation in order to be made clean, for nothing unclean will enter heaven (cf. Rev. 21:27).

The most obvious Biblical reference to purgatory is 2 Maccabees 12:40–45. When Judas prays and has sacrifices offered for soldiers who died in battle, he is commended for acting "very well and honorably."

The Church doesn’t exclude the possibility that purgatory could be an instantaneous purification, but there are indications in the Bible that souls do exist in some state that is neither heaven nor hell. Look at 1 Peter 3:19–20. These verses show Jesus preaching to "to the spirits in prison." The "prison" cannot be heaven, because the people there do not need to have the Gospel preached to them. It cannot be hell, because the souls in hell cannot repent. It must be something else (purgatory).

The idea of purgatory, when properly understood, is entirely consistent with the love of God. God wants us to be perfect (cf. Matt. 5:48). If we are not perfected by the time we die, we will be perfected in purgatory. He loves us too much to allow us to be less than what he created us to be. Purgatory is not about an angry God inflicting punishment upon his creatures. It is about a loving Father who "disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness" (Heb. 12:10).

 

[Galadriel]

God’s Word leaves absolutely no possibility for sin to be purged away by anything other than the blood of Jesus Christ.

Erm...who said that it WASN'T the Blood of Christ accomplishing this?

You know , I always make it a point to actually read/study something before trying to talk about/criticize it--but that's just me.

 

[Rainbow Dash]

Erm...who said that it WASN'T the Blood of Christ accomplishing this?

You know , I always make it a point to actually read/study something before trying to talk about/criticize it--but that's just me.

@Galadriel

I understand what we are discussing. It does not line up with the word of God. Purgatory is not in line with God's word. There is no need for you to try to act like I don't understand. Now lets look below...

Jesus said "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24)

^^There is no in between in this scripture.

There is no temporary holding or state of mind. Jesus told the thief on the cross that asked Him to save Him, that He would be in Paradise with Him TODAY. Not after purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison. Notice the scripture says He went... not He is still doing this. Read Hebrews 1:3 It says Christ purged our sins and sat down on the right hand of God.

“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.” Hebrews 1:3


If humand sufferings were capable of satisfying the Divine Justice, then what was the need for Jesus Christ death on cross? His death, burial, and resurrection took care of that.

You can not satisfy Divine Justice through good works or punishments, it is only through the precious Blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[Guitarhero]

Purgatory is the safety net when you die. You don’t go to Hell. You go (to Purgatory) and get things sorted out and finally get to Heaven if you’ve been good. Simply not in the Word of God.

]

Nooooo....purgatory is those souls departed with unrepented venial sin...they are in a state of grace or "saved." But they cannot enter into the presence of G-d without repenting or being purged of the effect and stain of those sins. They are purified through the blood of Jesus as it has been done..finished. This is not a new concept and derives from judaism. Jesus didn't change the law one bit. It's not sin that forever separates a soul from saving grace or the beatific vision i.e. those in hell's punishments. Purgatory is definitely not a safety net for the damned. Venial sin...mortal sin...those are very different and it is the latter that causes a departed soul unrepented to suffer hell. It is serious sin that was committed with complete knowledge of its dangers. This is why we go to confession to restore ourselves to a state of grace. Of course, even if you don't commit a mortal sin, you can still go to confession. It helps us examine ourselves to the nth degree, much like the concept of kashering or kosher. You examine all for impurities or blemish. You make amends and are absolved with a contrite heart. Incidentally, it's the H-ly Spirit that convicts a person to confess his sins. So, it's biblical.

 

[Guitarhero]

I think your thirst for knowledge is great, but you are looking in the wrong direction. Again, I say seek God. Maybe the catholic church has benefited from the church fathers, but my church and true Christian churches base their faith on belief in Jesus Christ. *I'm not claiming that you are unsaved, and I'm not ignorant about what you are talking about. *I just know that what you are referring to as being a part of a false religion because it's contrary to the word of God. *If your faith is based on the church fathers then you are definitely out of touch with the truth. **

There is NO purgatory. That is all a part of a false doctrine. Do not be deceived. The only way to God is through belief in Jesus Christ, and when you die, you go to Heaven or Hell, nothing in between.

I'm sorry you feel this way. It's all good. We are talking about the unconditional love of G-d and it's my fault not to have introduced it this way. KtyKty put it directly.

Eternal separation from God as opposed to eternal communion with God.
My Priest suggested that maybe the punishment in hell was to know that because of our choices, we could not spend eternity in the loving presence of God.

That's funny that this was said twice because I had never considered this. G-d must have wanted me to think about this cuz it sure stuck out. One reason coming to mind is that it places us all on level ground that was always there but that I'm more conscious of. I think of those who made the final decision to reject G-d's love and they suffer torment from all of it. That ought to move me to more compassion because He is still there loving those souls as it is unconditional and eternal. How often we take advantage of that love, taking it as granted! How His heart must hurt from seeing them suffer the consequences of rejecting that love because His great desire is for us to accept. For people (like Hitler) that we suspect to have gone to hell for the evil way they lived their lives until the end, it still should move me to compassion and forgiveness of ALL offenses against me. They don't know what they're doing until it's final.

If humand sufferings were capable of satisfying the Divine Justice, then what was the need for Jesus Christ death on cross? His death, burial, and resurrection took care of that.

Great question and it would seem obvious. These were some of the questions I've had before I entered the Church in my studies. But this is simply the way He chooses via His sacrifice. Shrugs.

I sure hope that people comprehend that my questions on scriptures or states in life will come via a catholic teaching and this is why all the catholics on here are responding via our Magisterium...catechism and scripture. G-d gave the authority on earth to the apostles and what they have decided through the leading of the H-ly Spirit is what is passed on in that apostolic tradition or "passing down from the apostles directly." This is why we verge away at various points. It's essential to our comprehension and it's seemingly heresy to yours. I hope you comprehend that it cannot be omitted. In the end, there's Jesus so we're the same in that sense. It's an opportunity for me to form questions seeking a catholic-centered response although I am not at all opposed to anyone else posting. I think divya has a point on providing some of the theological foundations of us all so that, when we pose a question or give an opinion, it's already understood what our position on the peripheral is. That way, we can focus on the actual question.