Rainbow Dash
Well-Known Member
Guitar, It seems as though you are trying to make hell a good place. If so, you are in deception. The bible describes hell. You will NOT be comforted in hell. It is eternal torment.
Who's in Hell?
- Thread starter Guitarhero
- Start date
JinaRicci
New Member
Good discussion. Of course nothing escapes God. God is a Spirit and He will know of their torment. In Psalms 139:7-8 David isn't saying that if he is in hellfire, God will be there. He is saying that he couldn't fly to the sky (not Heaven as in Paradise) or dig a hole in the ground below to escape God. God's spirit is everywhere but his physical presence- no.
The image that comes to mind when I hear that 'God is in hell, comforting sinners' reminds me of God in the fire with Daniel's 3 friends (Daniel 3). These men chose not to bow down to other gods and in doing so chose the punishment of death by fire. Remember the miracle of them not being even touched by the fire and the physical presence of God in the fire with them- visible to everyone. God was physically there refusing to let those who remained true to Him come to harm.
In contrast those who have chosen to be against God have also chosen death by fire and eternal separation from God. In that fire, we know the ones who will physically be there are the devil, and all his workers and followers (Rev 20). Jesus said in Matt 7:23 concerning the judgment day: "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
That indicates separation. Rev 20:9 says that fire will come down from heaven and devour them. The danger I see in thinking that God will physically be there in hell providing comfort makes it seem that it won't be so bad. That much like the 3 Hebrew boys, God will protect. How could it be bad if God is right there? This doesn't communicate the urgent necessity of choosing to follow God.
Where will God physically be? Rev 20:11 says 'On his great white throne' during judgment. And afterwards, regarding the new heaven and the new earth Rev 21:3: "And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."
Hope that helps the discussion. Happy to chat further.
The image that comes to mind when I hear that 'God is in hell, comforting sinners' reminds me of God in the fire with Daniel's 3 friends (Daniel 3). These men chose not to bow down to other gods and in doing so chose the punishment of death by fire. Remember the miracle of them not being even touched by the fire and the physical presence of God in the fire with them- visible to everyone. God was physically there refusing to let those who remained true to Him come to harm.
In contrast those who have chosen to be against God have also chosen death by fire and eternal separation from God. In that fire, we know the ones who will physically be there are the devil, and all his workers and followers (Rev 20). Jesus said in Matt 7:23 concerning the judgment day: "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
That indicates separation. Rev 20:9 says that fire will come down from heaven and devour them. The danger I see in thinking that God will physically be there in hell providing comfort makes it seem that it won't be so bad. That much like the 3 Hebrew boys, God will protect. How could it be bad if God is right there? This doesn't communicate the urgent necessity of choosing to follow God.
Where will God physically be? Rev 20:11 says 'On his great white throne' during judgment. And afterwards, regarding the new heaven and the new earth Rev 21:3: "And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."
Hope that helps the discussion. Happy to chat further.
Guitarhero
New Member
JinaRicci;1397179 The image that comes to mind when I hear that [B said:
Thanks for the input!!!! But to the bolded, I never once made that claim. I never said He would be providing comfort nor lessening their punishments. I made it very clear that hell is a place for torment. However, the love of G-d can still be there in those punishments. I'm attempting to comprehend some of the depth of His love (which we will not, totally
) because even a parent has to deal punishments to his/her child. They do not escape it but they are still loved. Can a child go astray? Oh, yes. But the parent still loves Hi8s creation. Now that brings me to a questions that kids often ask...does G-d love the devil. But I certainly comprehend the separation from man and G-d. They do not cross over into heavenly grace. I'm only explaining this again so people do not erroneously think I ever posed that position of "comforts of the final damned." I never said it not did I ever imply it.
One thing about G-d's dwelling place, He still rules the universe and beyond. But this reminds me of the tabernacle in the desert, the temple in Jerusalem and the tabernacle of our church...the divine presence dwelling amongst us. Emanuel... Thanks for that scripture!!!
Guitarhero
New Member
I am very clear in my posts. Perhaps people are not accustomed to dissecting scripture nor asking hardline questions that might appear to border heresy. You are horribly misquoting and miscontruing...totally misrepresenting what I said. You need only to actually READ what I wrote or pass the discussion. I do not say this in anger, but I am pleading with you to backtrack and read what is documented, please.
You do not at all comprehend this discussion and I'm sorry about that. But do not attribute to me what was NEVER said because it's unfair. Love does not mean removal of punishments. If His love is eternal for each of us, then it is eternal. Maybe He feels loss with every soul? I think that love never ends. But His punishments are clear as day. 
Last edited:
Guitarhero
New Member
I'm just exploring the case that it might be true. None of us truly know right now. I'm rather dismayed at some of the responses but I know that people don't always read the entire thread before commenting. It's just that some have misquoted me and others are running from that which they THINK I said. Not at all. Well, that's what I'm getting to. His love is a burning fire. Hebrews 12:29 for our "God is a consuming fire."
Gill exploration of the bible
For our God is a consuming fire. Either God personally considered, God in the person of Christ; so the Shechinah, with the Jews, is called a consuming fire (n). Christ is truly God, and he is our God and Lord; and though he is full of grace and mercy, yet he will appear in great wrath to his enemies, who will not have him to reign over them: or rather God essentially considered; whose God he is, and in what sense, and how he comes to be so; see Gill on Hebrews 8:10, what is here said of him, that he is a consuming fire, may be understood of his jealousy in matters of worship, Deuteronomy 4:23, and so carries in it a reason why he is to be served acceptably, with reverence and godly fear.
This is one reason I truly wish that more catholics or orthodox would chime in..they usually do over in the OT only
because the punishments that the saved will endure if they die unrepented of any sin (non-grave) are also going to be purified with His fire...and that is explained as G-d's love. We cannot, even as the saved, appear before Him unless all of that sin is repented of. It's forgiven, but we have to actively deal with it. This is the concept of purgatory which protestants do not understand nor believe for the most part. I can understand that, though. So, burning fire...even His wrath is jealous for us to stay on His side of receiving grace...for us to love and accept His love and His way. He never stops loving the sinners. But that is the difficult concept in how punishing someone can still be love for the sinner. The final choice is made so the just punishments. But I have NEVER said that hell is comforted.
JinaRicci
New Member
Thanks for the input!!!! But to the bolded, I never once made that claim. I never said He would be providing comfort nor lessening their punishments. I made it very clear that hell is a place for torment. However, the love of G-d can still be there in those punishments. I'm attempting to comprehend some of the depth of His love (which we will not, totally
But I certainly comprehend the separation from man and G-d. They do not cross over into heavenly grace. I'm only explaining this again so people do not erroneously think I ever posed that position of "comforts of the final damned." I never said it not did I ever imply it.
One thing about G-d's dwelling place, He still rules the universe and beyond. But this reminds me of the tabernacle in the desert, the temple in Jerusalem and the tabernacle of our church...the divine presence dwelling amongst us. Emanuel... Thanks for that scripture!!!
You're right. I should have made that clear. It's only the image that comes to mind for me. It's like I think if He is there then that softens the blow. Kind of like your mom holding you while you get a shot. But I get what you're saying. Happy to help.
Rainbow Dash
Well-Known Member
If you want to realize the depth of His love, it is in what He did on the Cross. What Christ did on the cross demonstrates God's love for mankind. If we receive it, we are saved from eternal damnation. That is love. His love never ends and it is not in Hell. His love is not felt in Hell. It is separation from God. Scripture tells us there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Oh and I comprehend the discussion.
proverbs31woman
New Member
I agree with this. Ther is NO pergutory or any other way to God, but through His son Jesus Christ. Many people choose to believe that because the thought of Hell is too much to bear.
If you are not comfortable with the answers you are receiving here, then you really need to seek God about it. he won't lead you astray. I think it's good that you are inquisitive about this, but it seems like this discussion is not giving you the answers you need, so turn to Him. Seek him through prayer and His word.
proverbs31woman
New Member
This is one reason I truly wish that more catholics or orthodox would chime in..they usually do over in the OT only
It seems as if you already have a certain belief that you are holding onto, and you are hoping that someone (i.e., a catholic or orthodox) will back you up. You really need to take heed to what has been said, and not take it for granted that there is a pergutory. That's not biblical. That's something that people have contrued only to make themselves feel content about dying. The only way to be saved is through Jesus Christ. I know that saying that may sound offensive, but that is the truth. You can be free of this if you trully turn to God about this. I think all of the posts on here are because we sincerelycare about you and wouldn't want you to be deceived. Only Satan would want someone to believe something that is not in the Bible. He's the father of all lies.
Guitarhero
New Member
I understand your point of view and am fully aware of the cross. If you comprehend, then please do not misconstrue my question and meaning as it is unfair. If you disagree, that's one thing but to turn another's words around and attribute to them something they have not at all said and, on top of that, attempt to "introduce Christ," is wrong. I am only interested in exploring that one concept...only that. Our disagreement lies around the concept of what His love entails and what that full separation entails...which is why I asked the question. If you think I'm confused about hell, I can assure you, I am not. Again, I am only exploring the concept based upon the events mentioned in the original post. I have nothing to do with what others "thought" I was asking. I was very clear. Lastly, I am not opposed to people disagreeing - hence, the discussion. But I will not withstand someone misconstruing my words and attempting to tell me I'm trying to make hell easier.
Last edited:
Guitarhero
New Member
.............Believe what you will. In the end, there is abundant grace and I know which side I'm on.
I wish you well. You might wish to leave the unfair accusations out and apply true exegesis or apologetics first. Disagreements don't bother me, it's saying someone is deceived because they look deeply into the various meanings of scripture, something that your church has benefited from, directly via the church councils of the early Church Fathers. We all derive from that.
Last edited:
Rainbow Dash
Well-Known Member
God is not in hell loving on people.
There is no mention of purgatory in scripture.
The bible tells us that hell was for the devil and fallen angels or demons.
Christ came to redeem fallen mankind from the penalty of sin, which is hell and the lake of fire.
Your priest was not teaching based upon God's word.
Hell is Full separation from God. Hell is the worst, most horrible place to be.
God is Not there with people in hell. He is aware that they are there.
There is no mention of purgatory in scripture.
The bible tells us that hell was for the devil and fallen angels or demons.
Christ came to redeem fallen mankind from the penalty of sin, which is hell and the lake of fire.
Your priest was not teaching based upon God's word.
Hell is Full separation from God. Hell is the worst, most horrible place to be.
God is Not there with people in hell. He is aware that they are there.
Guitarhero
New Member
Thanks Health&Hair28, you can leave it at that. I appreciate your participation but the focus is not being abtained. It's distracting to have to continually go over other theological points that might not be familiar to you and others and have the topic derailed over and over again. I'm not going to post in this thread again but I certainly appreciate you mean well .
.
Last edited:
Galadriel
Well-Known Member
I heard a priest today say that G-d is in hell, loving on the sinners. Doesn't mean they aren't reaping just punishments. I've heard other accounts of the nature of hell such that it's G-d's love that is the flame. Basically, I was mistaken to think that G-d removed His presence away from those in hell. What do you think?
Romans 8:38-39 (KJV)
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Of course, I assumed that this ended when one went to hell.G-d's love is encompassing...even in hell.
I can understand the gist of your question in terms of God's omnipresence and omniscience, but I would say that there is no Divine Love felt or perceived by those in hell because (1) the nature of the souls in hell completely lack grace and (2) even if they could feel it, it would be a torture in and of itself to them.
ETA: Guitarhero remember, that hell is also deprivation of the Beatific Vision
Last edited:
Guitarhero
New Member
It's the deprivation of...but what about on G-d's side? I sure wished I had stuck around to ask this of the good priest. I wonder what he is taking this from. What about the source of the fire in hell? That's initially what I thought he was referring to, initially - that of His enduring love despite their just punishments and torments...that, perhaps, their rejection of him will ultimately meet up with that consuming fire of the love they should have accepted but are eternally in opposition to, thus eternal sufferings? I'm trying to figure it out from the tidbit he gave.
For purgatory, we know that it is His love and although they are going through purification, they are not separate from G-d - but it is still unbearable lol.
Deprivation of the Beatific Vision...going to research from that point. Thanks, Galadriel. Which of the early Church Fathers wrote most on hell?
For purgatory, we know that it is His love and although they are going through purification, they are not separate from G-d - but it is still unbearable lol.
Deprivation of the Beatific Vision...going to research from that point. Thanks, Galadriel. Which of the early Church Fathers wrote most on hell?
proverbs31woman
New Member
.............Believe what you will. In the end, there is abundant grace and I know which side I'm on.
The existence of hell shouldn't lead anyone to believe that God does not have abundant grace. If someone makes their bed in hell, they have received so many chances to come to Him and have refused to do so for whatever reason. In spite of that, He is still full of grace and mercy. You've received plenty of exegesis in this thread, but it seems as if you want believe something other than the truth. Like most people on here, I don't want you to believe a lie and I would hate for anyone else to see this thread and believe that there is a pergutory that they can look forward to for purification rather than rely on the blood of Christ to purify them before it's too late.
I'm not sure why you seem reluctant to seek God about this rather than rely on what others (even those on this board) have said. The little we know (even the little the church fathers knew) cannot compare to God's knowledge. Seek Him. There's no power in the church fathers; the only power comes from Jesus Christ.
Last edited:
Galadriel
Well-Known Member
Guitarhero I don't have the entire context of the talk/homily but I'm guessing that he perhaps wanted to point out that God is omniscient and omnipresent, and the just punishments in hell are a reflection of His love.
I remember reading Dante's "Inferno" in college and we were questioning why part of the inscription to the Gate of Hell said "Divine Love Wrought Me" --we often tend to separate justice and morality from love, but God does not. Remember the greatest commandments are to love God with your entire mind, strength, and being--and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus said if we did this, we'd be following all of the Commandments.
Often, when we stand up for goodness or justice, how many times are we accused of being "hateful," or "intolerant," etc.? Our morally bankrupt society equates lukewarm moral relativity with love--this is an error. Love and justice, love and morality, love and goodness, go hand-in-hand with one another. Hell isn't the result of being hated by God, but a result of one's utter rejection of Him and the State of Grace.
Perhaps this was where he was coming from?
Hmm, I definitely don't want to put words into his mouth since I wasn't there, but I do understand that being deprived of God's presence, love, and His very Face are part of the punishment of hell. I also think the KNOWLEDGE that they have chosen to reject God and are now in hell is also part of the punishment.
Hence we pray as taught to us through Our Lady of Fatima, "Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those who are in most need of Your Mercy."
Yes, the purification or purgation endured by the souls in purgatory are different than the pain endured via the fires of hell.
Definitely look up St. Augustine of Hippo.
Also, here are some sites:
http://www.theveritasproject.org/hell---early-church-fathers.html
http://www.catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp
Galadriel
Well-Known Member
proverbs31woman, I don't think she believes that one can escape out of hell or be redeemed from hell. She was asking what was the nature of the punishments in hell and whether or not part of it was an aversion to feeling or perceiving God's presence.
Purgatory is simply the final purification of the soul that is ALREADY heaven-bound. Scripture makes it clear that nothing imperfect or flawed enters heaven--thus upon entering heaven we would have been purified. This is made possible by Christ and His Sacrifice on the Cross, not in spite of it. Purgatory is not only supported by Scripture, but also early Christians and Church Fathers who were closest to the Apostles.
God, and Christ, gave us a Church for a reason. He established a teaching and leading authority within His Church so that the entirety of His Revelation (The Old Testament, New Testament and Apostles' teachings) could be safeguarded, taught, explained, and passed on.
You say "seek God's knowledge alone," but what do you mean by that? John Calvin did that and came up with Calvinism, which teaches that you are either predestined to heaven or hell and you have have no free will or choice. John Wesley (the founder of Methodism) did the same and clashed with Calvin, even to the point of Calvinists and Methodists (hundreds of years ago in Europe) actually fighting against each other. Which one is right? The Calvinist or the Methodist? Who was the Holy Spirit speaking to or guiding?
This is the problem with "Sola Scriptura" and the subjective individual Bible interpretations that come along with it. You get 40,000 different denominations with different interpretations, all claiming that the Holy Spirit taught them and guided them.
On the other hand, you have only ONE, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church--why? Because for the last 2,000 years we have kept, safeguarded, and passed down the Bible and the Apostles' teachings through the Successors of the Apostles (the Bishops).
Guitarhero
New Member
Because we are a community of believers with the Church as the head and the Magisterium or teaching authority as the guard of our faith. This is how we attain uniformity in the truth. We do not operate independently of the community in beliefs and worship and we certainly do not entertain the thought that everyone can interpret for himself the meaning of scripture. The learning body has always been important and has its precedence in the "Old Testament" faith. Without the promise of the H-ly Spirit leading the Church, we would be doomed to ignorance. The early Church Fathers have been the bastion of the faith of which every single christian church has benefited. You confuse ignorance of that which you do not know to being unsaved and I can comprehend this. The scriptures have various levels of meaning and on some subjects, it is a bit silent. Thirst for study is in my genes and has always been important to me. It's a principle I choose to live by every single day and I don't wish it to cease.
The greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about ~Unknown~
Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn. ~Benjamin Franklin~
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
~Confucius~
Hosea 4: 6 (KJV) My people perish from a lack of knowledge. ~HaShem, the Hebrew G-d of the Bible~
Last edited:
Guitarhero
New Member
I wonder sometimes....but I do know that we don't dare attempt to determine what G-d's final plans or judgments are. There's a lot of humility that can be learned in the entire christian community. It would seem that a lot of the public shame is part of that lesson. We should all take heed.
proverbs31woman
New Member
I think your thirst for knowledge is great, but you are looking in the wrong direction. Again, I say seek God. Maybe the catholic church has benefited from the church fathers, but my church and true Christian churches base their faith on belief in Jesus Christ. *I'm not claiming that you are unsaved, and I'm not ignorant about what you are talking about. *I just know that what you are referring to as being a part of a false religion because it's contrary to the word of God. *If your faith is based on the church fathers then you are definitely out of touch with the truth. **
There is NO purgatory. That is all a part of a false doctrine. Do not be deceived. The only way to God is through belief in Jesus Christ, and when you die, you go to Heaven or Hell, nothing in between.
There is NO purgatory. That is all a part of a false doctrine. Do not be deceived. The only way to God is through belief in Jesus Christ, and when you die, you go to Heaven or Hell, nothing in between.
Last edited:
divya
Well-Known Member
While I may not be doctrinally in agreement with either of you ladies (Guitarhero & Proverbs31woman) or most in this thread, I just want to say that it is truly something to see how our views of Christianity and specifically Christian history can differ...wow. This thread is something else!
Galadriel
Well-Known Member
Hmm, even though among these 40,000+ churches they teach conflicting doctrine? Which one of these denominations is right and being led by the Holy Spirit? Lutherans? Methodists? Calvinists? Presbyterians? Anglicans? Baptists? Seventh Day Adventists?
It's in Scripture. It's been explained and taught by Bishops who studied under the Apostles themselves and passed down for the past 2,000 years. In fact, the only time anyone taught otherwise was 500 years ago in Europe--the Protestant Reformation.
Guitarhero
New Member
I know that "kaddish" is said for a departed family member for 11 months after the death. It's explained that the prayers are for the living. I believe this points to the communion of the saints/souls between this world and the next. But I believe it is also prayers for the soul such that person will enter the next level to heaven after his purgation. In mystical judaism, it's called Gehinnon.
I had a lot of problems believing in purgatory until it was properly explained to me. Over time, I see why it's necessary to the soul. Of course, I hope those here know that souls can and do go directly to heaven, especially martyrs.
I had a lot of problems believing in purgatory until it was properly explained to me. Over time, I see why it's necessary to the soul. Of course, I hope those here know that souls can and do go directly to heaven, especially martyrs.
Guitarhero
New Member
I agree and this is part of my life's work to bring differing people (by creed, nationality, religion, culture) together to explore each other's viewpoints. This is essential for mutual respect and hopefully, we all realize that how we view each other will determine ultimately how we treat one another. It's all about repairing the world. Of course, we are in Christ and see Him as the way (even we interpret how that ultimately works out differently) but we could certainly come a long way in knowing about each other from the source. I so love this.
ktykaty
Well-Known Member
According to the Catechism, those in hell are separated from God. It's their own sins that separate them from God. I believe that God still loves those who are in hell. He is love, He does not stop loving anyone, no matter what the sins. Our sins can separate us from the grace of God but not from the love of God. For me that's what Paul means in Romans 8. It's in God nature to love.
"1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs."
Eternal separation from God as opposed to eternal communion with God.
My Priest suggested that maybe the punishment in hell was to know that because of our choices, we could not spend eternity in the loving presence of God.
Here are 2 links on god unconditional love
http://blog.adw.org/2010/02/is-gods-love-really-unconditional/
http://blog.adw.org/2011/02/does-god-love-the-souls-in-hell-then-why-do-they-suffer/
"1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs."
Eternal separation from God as opposed to eternal communion with God.
My Priest suggested that maybe the punishment in hell was to know that because of our choices, we could not spend eternity in the loving presence of God.
Here are 2 links on god unconditional love
http://blog.adw.org/2010/02/is-gods-love-really-unconditional/
http://blog.adw.org/2011/02/does-god-love-the-souls-in-hell-then-why-do-they-suffer/
Last edited:
Rainbow Dash
Well-Known Member
There is no mention of purgatory in scripture.
The rich man that died and went to hell in Luke 16, prayed to Father Abraham, but Abraham told him that his fate was sealed. It could not be changed. Luke 16:22-26
Luke 16:22-26 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell (what happened to purgatory?) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom....
Purgatory is the safety net when you die. You don’t go to Hell. You go (to Purgatory) and get things sorted out and finally get to Heaven if you’ve been good. Simply not in the Word of God.
“The blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin” and “all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:7, 9). John did not say “some” sins or “most” sins, but all sins!
God’s Word also declares, “All things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness” (Hebrews 9:22).
When Jesus “made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high” (Hebrews 1:3).
Those who desire to have their sins purged need to trust Jesus Christ, not a place. The blood of Christ is the only cleansing agent for sin.
"This good news was affirmed by the Lord Jesus with the promise He gave to the repentant thief at Calvary. He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). This habitual sinner did not need a fire to purge his sins.
Purgatory is a travesty on the justice of God and a disgraceful fabrication that robs Christ Jesus of His glory and honor.
Christ alone satisfied divine justice, once and for all, by the perfect and finished sacrifice of Himself."
It is Christ alone that will present us “faultless before the presence of his glory” (Jude 24).
The rich man that died and went to hell in Luke 16, prayed to Father Abraham, but Abraham told him that his fate was sealed. It could not be changed. Luke 16:22-26
Luke 16:22-26 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell (what happened to purgatory?) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom....
Purgatory is the safety net when you die. You don’t go to Hell. You go (to Purgatory) and get things sorted out and finally get to Heaven if you’ve been good. Simply not in the Word of God.
“The blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin” and “all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:7, 9). John did not say “some” sins or “most” sins, but all sins!
God’s Word also declares, “All things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness” (Hebrews 9:22).
When Jesus “made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high” (Hebrews 1:3).
Those who desire to have their sins purged need to trust Jesus Christ, not a place. The blood of Christ is the only cleansing agent for sin.
"This good news was affirmed by the Lord Jesus with the promise He gave to the repentant thief at Calvary. He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). This habitual sinner did not need a fire to purge his sins.
Purgatory is a travesty on the justice of God and a disgraceful fabrication that robs Christ Jesus of His glory and honor.
Christ alone satisfied divine justice, once and for all, by the perfect and finished sacrifice of Himself."
It is Christ alone that will present us “faultless before the presence of his glory” (Jude 24).
Last edited:
ktykaty
Well-Known Member
You are objecting to what You believe the Catholic Church is teaching on purgatory and not on the teaching of our Church.
The teaching of the Catholic Church on purgatory is pretty clear: "Those who die in God's grace and friendship imperfectly purified, although they are assured of their eternal salvation, undergo a purification after death, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of God." Purgatory is for the saints. It is not a second chance. To enter purgatory you have to already be a saint.
Purgatory is not a place, it's a state. It is Jesus who takes us through purgatory. The cleansing fire of purgatory is the love of God.
Here are some scriptures talking of purification by fire
"If the work which any man has built on the foundation [which is Christ] survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3: 14-15).
“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the LORD, as in days gone by, as in former years.
Malachi 3:1-4
Similar threads
