Rebuke from Gospel Artist over out of wedlock baby

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

Strange Rebuke From Gospel Singer Over Having Star Athlete’s Baby


Jan 13, 2014

By Oretha Winston, Lead Editor

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Rhymes With Snitch alerted everyone to this post on her Instagram page.
Dwight Howard’s baby momma, Christine Vest has taken her critics to task in a strange rebuke on instagram! Read the below:

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Just in case you were wondering what the theology on this is:
- Fornication is a sin against oneself. Paul said, “Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body, but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body” I Corinthians 6:18.
- Fornication is a sin against the other person involved. It is always a mutual sin engaged in by two or more. Involving others in your own sin, You sin against them. If your convictions had been strong perhaps they would have been encouraged to do right. Corinthians 7:2, “Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife and every woman have her own husband”. Temptation is not a sin fornication is.
-The dictionary meaning of the word “fornication” means any unlawful sexual intercourse including adultery. In the Bible the Greek definition of the word “fornication” means to commit illicit sexual intercourse.
Might we add that the best part of her post is:

If you want to rebuke me for fornicating, thanks, but I have repented already. But if you’re trying to hurt me by criticizing my choice to KEEP MY CHILD, then you’re worse than me and wasting you’re time because to me YOU LOOK FOOLISH!

​

We think someone is running from theology and a scolding. What do you think?

http://elev8.com/1213451/strange-rebuke-from-gospel-singer-over-having-star-athletes-baby/

 

[momi]

I find the entire post very strange. Not only do I not understand her warped theology, I don't even understand the point she is trying to make.

:headscratch:

 

[felic1]

She should have kept those statements inside. People sound foolish?

 

[Keen]

Aside from her calling people dumb, I have always found it strange people who get pregnant out of wedlock get the sinner treatment by those fornicating themselves. Fornicating is fornicating whether you ended up pregnant or aborted the baby or on birth control.

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

I find the entire post very strange. Not only do I not understand her warped theology, I don't even understand the point she is trying to make.

:headscratch:

Every time someone gets caught fornicating (baby) they try to justify it, with at least I didn't have an abortion or the 'innocence' of the child. I find it baffling, just admit to your wrong doing, repent and keep it moving.

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

I don't believe in the, we fall down we get up thing, if we want to be real many sometimes we put ourselves in situations (cause we want to) that can be avoided.

 

[Cheleigh]

She's right in that having an out-of-wedlock child is not a sin. It is a by-product (a consequence) of sinful actions/sin. It is a visible manifestation of your sin. And people have a right to state their opinions about your sin, as you have a tangible by-product of it and can't really deny it. Now, tis true that many of those people casting aspurgions are hypocrites, but being a hypocrite doesn't mean that you are wrong about something. It just means that you're sinning too and not owning up to your own sin.

Sometimes the best course is to stay silent and ignore naysayers. If you've asked for forgiveness from Jesus/God for your actions/sin, then you've been forgiven, but sometimes we have to endure the public and private reprecussions of our actions for years to come. I have made plenty of mistakes, committed many sins, and some of them haunt me everyday. Just because I was forgiven of my sins and just because some of them weren't public doesn't mean that the consequences aren't felt. Her barking out statements about people being "dumb" is akin to people behaving any way that want and then barking "only God can judge me." Don't want to do the time? Don't do the crime.

 

[JaneBond007]

Long post alert...sorry about that:

Probably something behind the scenes as well that is being repeated over and over again for her to answer to. I comprehend her. She's already dealt with the fact she had pre-marital sex. It's not up to anyone to question her. We repent and go to reconciliation. That's it. You live again and you get right back up if you've fallen.

One thing I do not like about this culture here is the fact that people turn up their noses at the children, even the mother. It's wrong and unloving. No child is at fault. Just like that pastor who didn't want to openly bless a child because s/he was born oow, so it is with people constantly attempting to remind you of your sin. What is done is done. The very people judging are the ones hiding something they think no one else will ever see brought to light. She vented...maybe people ought have compassion? That's what I got from her post.

-------------------

I wish I had seen this first. Everything about Jesus' life is symbolic, esp. his cruxifixion. How many times did he fall and get up again? Did he receive compassion on the way? Veronica? Cyrenaeus helped him carry the cross? Jeers for this open "sinner" against G-d vs. the many tears shed for his innocence? Jesus reminds us to not judge others in a certain way. Seeing a sin and teaching your children to be wise is one thing in light of such a situation. But pointing to that person over and over again (gospel artist and those in her circle and even fan base), imho, lacks compassion. It's as though she has scarlet clothing, forever.

There is a girl in our circle who has had a child oow at 17. She knows what she and her boyfriend have done. She's pregnant with oow baby no. 2. We attended her shower and loved her. We don't have to tell her she's wrong, she knows that, being a catholic. Her parents have told her. We don't have to allow our kids to hang with her on a regular basis and that has been our kids' choice, primarily, since they are furthering their education. But they have not said one word to her about it in correction. They haven't looked at her as if she's dirty. They love her and gave her 2 baby showers.

-----------------------------------------

There was a time at Mass that Father asked people to pray for the widowed and for those who have never known their fathers. The person beside me had already tried to spy where my wedding ring was since there was no husband by my side and I know this because I caught her looking at my hands and then she slightly turned her nose up at me. But when Father said the bit about those never knowing their fathers, she (with her previous haught) and two other "compassionates" looked right at us at that very moment. I mean, they turned around 180 and Snooty to her right and looked at us. I was furious but was at Mass. What to do? Endure ignorance and arrogance.

This type of judging hurts people. If someone loving attends to the spiritual needs of someone in private who is sinning, that is one thing, but to assume. Scarlet, which they assume they have the right to point out, over and over again. They simply don't even know me to make such assumptions. These others only know she (gospel singer) had sex outside marriage...that's enough. Let it go.

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

Every time someone gets caught fornicating (baby) they try to justify it, with at least I didn't have an abortion or the 'innocence' of the child. I find it baffling, just admit to your wrong doing, repent and keep it moving.

*I also apologize for the length of my post*

I don’t want to sound flippant by my response, I know that God is grieved when we sin and we should be too. What concerns me is the lack of grief, regret or remorse which is very common in Christians in the entertainment world. I’m not asking anyone to dress in sack cloth and throw ash on themselves while walking through the streets but I can tell by the response that there is no remorse…

Even when Nathan went to David, David acknowledge his sin against God, but God took away his sin and this is what I meant by repent and keep it moving.

The first reaction to people (your fan base/followers) opinions (good or bad) is always one of offense, especially in these kind of circumstances when the sin is exposed because it resulted in a child.

The bible says when we are drawn away by our own lusts we sin, James 1:14 when lust it conceived it gives birth to sin and when sin is accomplished it brings death…we cant expect to put ourselves in harms way and not go unscathed. Because her sin resulted in a baby and because the child is supposedly ‘innocent’ that does not make it right.

I don't know if she is just a singer or a Christian singer but whether we believe or not what we do does influence others, how did she impact her baby daddy spiritually or anyone else for that matter besides being a stumbling block.

JB's post reminded me about all that Jesus endured and did not utter not ONE word, didn't try to defend himself and He wasn't wrong...but we have to sound the alarm always wanting to tell it loudly on the mountain and over the hills and defend what we know is wrong.


To the young woman who is on a 2nd, 3rd 'mistake' when will she learn when will those around her give rebuke. LOVE rebukes.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

She's repented? Hmmm, true repentance brings humility. She sounds mighty lifted up in pride about what she's done to me responding this way.

 

[Kurlee]

Long post alert...sorry about that:

Probably something behind the scenes as well that is being repeated over and over again for her to answer to. I comprehend her. She's already dealt with the fact she had pre-marital sex. It's not up to anyone to question her. We repent and go to reconciliation. That's it. You live again and you get right back up if you've fallen.

One thing I do not like about this culture here is the fact that people turn up their noses at the children, even the mother. It's wrong and unloving. No child is at fault. Just like that pastor who didn't want to openly bless a child because s/he was born oow, so it is with people constantly attempting to remind you of your sin. What is done is done. The very people judging are the ones hiding something they think no one else will ever see brought to light. She vented...maybe people ought have compassion? That's what I got from her post.

-------------------

I wish I had seen this first. Everything about Jesus' life is symbolic, esp. his cruxifixion. How many times did he fall and get up again? Did he receive compassion on the way? Veronica? Cyrenaeus helped him carry the cross? Jeers for this open "sinner" against G-d vs. the many tears shed for his innocence? Jesus reminds us to not judge others in a certain way. Seeing a sin and teaching your children to be wise is one thing in light of such a situation. But pointing to that person over and over again (gospel artist and those in her circle and even fan base), imho, lacks compassion. It's as though she has scarlet clothing, forever.

There is a girl in our circle who has had a child oow at 17. She knows what she and her boyfriend have done. She's pregnant with oow baby no. 2. We attended her shower and loved her. We don't have to tell her she's wrong, she knows that, being a catholic. Her parents have told her. We don't have to allow our kids to hang with her on a regular basis and that has been our kids' choice, primarily, since they are furthering their education. But they have not said one word to her about it in correction. They haven't looked at her as if she's dirty. They love her and gave her 2 baby showers.

-----------------------------------------

There was a time at Mass that Father asked people to pray for the widowed and for those who have never known their fathers. The person beside me had already tried to spy where my wedding ring was since there was no husband by my side and I know this because I caught her looking at my hands and then she slightly turned her nose up at me. But when Father said the bit about those never knowing their fathers, she (with her previous haught) and two other "compassionates" looked right at us at that very moment. I mean, they turned around 180 and Snooty to her right and looked at us. I was furious but was at Mass. What to do? Endure ignorance and arrogance.

This type of judging hurts people. If someone loving attends to the spiritual needs of someone in private who is sinning, that is one thing, but to assume. Scarlet, which they assume they have the right to point out, over and over again. They simply don't even know me to make such assumptions. These others only know she (gospel singer) had sex outside marriage...that's enough. Let it go.

on point. Every syllable.

 

[Kurlee]

She's repented? Hmmm, true repentance brings humility. She sounds mighty lifted up in pride about what she's done to me responding this way.

she sounds frustrated and over the criticism.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

Sin in the church has become such a norm that we are literally expected to just shut up about it since that person knows its wrong. The Bible disagrees with that. When you're in the public, you're going to get criticism but if you're truly broken/repentant you will humble yourself. Sin, especially sexual sin, is a lifestyle for many church folk/professing Christians. Instead of us mourning and being sorry at the state of things we make excuses. Those who say something are told to be quiet and stop judging since that person knows their sin already, just pray about it.... See I see a bunch of folk (not just here, I mean this in general) who are religious but lack the heart of Christ to be grieved by this. I am reminded of 1Corinthians 5. Paul told the assembly to put away the fornicator from among them (yet love him) so that he'd repent. The reason people are not repenting and are having false conversions is because many church folk just keep quiet about it and never say anything, never correct these people in a Biblical way yet these people are perishing because we don't follow the example of Scripture. Apparently, as with any case like this, there are hypocritical people not judging righteously. But I get the impression that most of these people don't want correction period. They want to do what they want with no accountability to the body of Christ. Well as a body, the real body of Christ does not function that way because we are one in Him. And Christ is holy. So I'm not buying her supposed repentance. The word says bring forth fruit meet for repentance, which she is not doing.

 

[Shimmie]

The only thing that I get from this is that the 'Child' is not at fault for the sins of the parents.

She made a mistake and is taking responsibility for it. Even more, she loves her baby and chose to keep him/her.

It sounds like someone (or several) people hurt her, deeply. Her message is, don't hurt my baby. He/she has done you no harm. Don't hurt my baby for my sin.

 

[Kurlee]

Sin in the church has become such a norm that we are literally expected to just shut up about it since that person knows its wrong. The Bible disagrees with that. When you're in the public, you're going to get criticism but if you're truly broken/repentant you will humble yourself. Sin, especially sexual sin, is a lifestyle for many church folk/professing Christians. Instead of us mourning and being sorry at the state of things we make excuses. Those who say something are told to be quiet and stop judging since that person knows their sin already, just pray about it.... See I see a bunch of folk (not just here, I mean this in general) who are religious but lack the heart of Christ to be grieved by this. I am reminded of 1Corinthians 5. Paul told the assembly to put away the fornicator from among them (yet love him) so that he'd repent. The reason people are not repenting and are having false conversions is because many church folk just keep quiet about it and never say anything, never correct these people in a Biblical way yet these people are perishing because we don't follow the example of Scripture. Apparently, as with any case like this, there are hypocritical people not judging righteously. But I get the impression that most of these people don't want correction period. They want to do what they want with no accountability to the body of Christ. Well as a body, the real body of Christ does not function that way because we are one in Him. And Christ is holy. So I'm not buying her supposed repentance. The word says bring forth fruit meet for repentance, which she is not doing.

What does repentance "look" like? The child looks about six months. Pregnancy is 40 weeks (10 months). So at the very least it's been about a year and a half. How long is she supposed to beat up herself about something that happened at least 1.5 years ago? I think Christians (sometimes) get too caught up in relishing in other people's sins. It's counterproductive. You alienate others that you could be witnessing to, while discouraging the person who has repented and is trying to grow in Christ. Talk about getting in your own way.

 

[Laela]

Exactly. How long? Don't you think she's continuing to do so in her Instagram vent by drawing the attention to it? I just don't get it either. She's repented, so this should be a non-issue for her at this point. But then again, maybe not.
Focusing on her "haters" does more harm than good.

All I know is her baby is adorable...

What does repentance "look" like? The child looks about six months. Pregnancy is 40 weeks (10 months). So at the very least it's been about a year and a half. How long is she supposed to beat up herself about something that happened at least 1.5 years ago? I think Christians (sometimes) get too caught up in relishing in other people's sins. It's counterproductive. You alienate others that you could be witnessing to, while discouraging the person who has repented and is trying to grow in Christ. Talk about getting in your own way.

she sounds frustrated and over the criticism.

 

[Kurlee]

Exactly. How long? Don't you think she's continuing to do so in her Instagram vent by drawing the attention to it? I just don't get it either. She's repented, so this should be a non-issue for her at this point. But then again, maybe not.
Focusing on her "haters" does more harm than good.

All I know is her baby is adorable...

Agreed. But how can she move on, if people keep reminding her of her sin and keep criticizing her about it? The child will be here until the day she dies, so unless people intend on her being "sorry" and humble for the next 60 years . . . what is she really supposed to do except be the best mother she can be and learn from her sin? *shrugs*

She seems too through. You can't move on from any issue if people keep rubbing it in your face.

 

[Shimmie]

Agreed. But how can she move on, if people keep reminding her of her sin and keep criticizing her about it? The child will be here until the day she dies, so unless people intend on her being "sorry" and humble for the next 60 years . . . what is she really supposed to do except be the best mother she can be and learn from her sin? *shrugs*

She seems too through. You can't move on from any issue if people keep rubbing it in your face.

She is definitely too through. I feel badly for her. While we don't want to downplay the seriousness of sex outside of Marriage and OOW babies, I can't help but feel this woman's broken heart. She's not happy that she sinned and she's not making excuses for it. That speaks a lot about her and that she has truly repented.

I'm thinking of three women in the Bible that Jesus forgave for sexual sin...they were each so grateful and repentant, they truly had a change of heart and they 'went and sinned no more'.

 

[Shimmie]

She is definitely too through. I feel badly for her. While we don't want to downplay the seriousness of sex outside of Marriage and having babies outside of marriage, I can't help but feel this woman's broken heart. She's not happy that she sinned and she's not making excuses for it. That speaks a lot about her and that she has truly repented.

I'm thinking of three women in the Bible that Jesus forgave for sexual sin...they were each so grateful and repentant, they truly had a change of heart and they 'went and sinned no more'.

I had to change my original post from labeling a baby as OOW. I repent of that. The children are innocent.

 

[JaneBond007]

Fornicators in biblical times were people who were going to the various sex shops under Roman rule. These included open sex with boys, men, female and male prostitutes that worked these shops. Of course, women were killed for adultery in those days and girls that had either been raped or willingly lost their virginity by being conned by some boy were also put out of the family or shamed forever in some way. Jesus provided the example for the adulterer. As far as those publicly visiting those rampant sex shoppes on every corner and indulging in Romanesque behaviors which contradicted the biblical moral code, they were to be equally shamed in public if they confessed Jesus as Messiah.

As fornication refers not just to the physical body and not just to the unmarried, married can commit it when they utilize their burning passion or sexual energy in a wrong way, to harm physically, emotionally, spiritually etc. Jesus, by Joseph not putting away Mary, and by freeing the adulterous, is placing high emphasis on the marital union and perhaps, for those who were conceived oow.

 

[TraciChanel]

What does repentance "look" like? The child looks about six months. Pregnancy is 40 weeks (10 months). So at the very least it's been about a year and a half. How long is she supposed to beat up herself about something that happened at least 1.5 years ago? I think Christians (sometimes) get too caught up in relishing in other people's sins. It's counterproductive. You alienate others that you could be witnessing to, while discouraging the person who has repented and is trying to grow in Christ. Talk about getting in your own way.

to the bolded.
The comments and OP brought up some memories. When I was about 15 years old, a good friend of mine who was 18 at the time and attended the same church as me got pregnant OOW. I remember to this day how cruel she was treated, by the adults in our church. As she got further along in her pregnancy, she got stares (so much so, people could hardly pay attention in church). People ruthlessly gossiped about her behind her back, tried to get inside information from me and other people close to her about her "situation", even advised me to cut off our friendship and spoke to my mom about not letting me remain friends with her. All of this was from adults in the church, old enough to be her mom or dad (some older). At the time, I felt it was wrong - the way she was being treated, but I didn't feel as if I had the right to speak up about it, because I was just a kid myself. My mom didn't tell me to stop being friends with her, and she embraced my friend and encouraged her to keep her head up and keep going. Also, the young man who got her pregnant, attended the same church, and none of the rebuke or cruelty fell on him.

I know the OP wasn't about teen pregnancy, but the situation is still a bit similar. The onus always falls on the woman, unfortunately. I'm glad that my friend kept going and ignored all of the people who tried to tear her down. She got married a year later and her son is growing up to be a GREAT young man. She didn't do well because of the rebuke she got from the people in church, but in spite of it, and due to the support she received from her family and friends. No one made her feel like what got her into the situation of being pregnant OOW (fornication) was the right thing to do. Not at all. But no one in her support system made her feel like a failure, or less than, either. Only God can read our hearts. If we sin (any sin), we need to sincerely repent to God our Heavenly Father and ask for His forgiveness. IMHO, our relationship with God and how He views us is far more important than what other people think about us, or perceive us to be because of our past mistakes.

 

[Shimmie]

Fornicators in biblical times were people who were going to the various sex shops under Roman rule. These included open sex with boys, men, female and male prostitutes that worked these shops. Of course, women were killed for adultery in those days and girls that had either been raped or willingly lost their virginity by being conned by some boy were also put out of the family or shamed forever in some way. Jesus provided the example for the adulterer. As far as those publicly visiting those rampant sex shoppes on every corner and indulging in Romanesque behaviors which contradicted the biblical moral code, they were to be equally shamed in public if they confessed Jesus as Messiah.

As fornication refers not just to the physical body and not just to the unmarried, married can commit it when they utilize their burning passion or sexual energy in a wrong way, to harm physically, emotionally, spiritually etc.

Jesus, by Joseph not putting away Mary, and by freeing the adulterous, is placing high emphasis on the marital union and perhaps, for those who were conceived oow.

This is true and I'm glad you shared this. The Bible is clear on how a husband must treat his wife, which is tenderly and with love. Sexual abuse in marriage is definitely 'fornication', for it is not within the love of marriage.

 

[Shimmie]

to the bolded.
The comments and OP brought up some memories. When I was about 15 years old, a good friend of mine who was 18 at the time and attended the same church as me got pregnant OOW. I remember to this day how cruel she was treated, by the adults in our church. As she got further along in her pregnancy, she got stares (so much so, people could hardly pay attention in church).

People ruthlessly gossiped about her behind her back, tried to get inside information from me and other people close to her about her "situation", even advised me to cut off our friendship and spoke to my mom about not letting me remain friends with her. All of this was from adults in the church, old enough to be her mom or dad (some older).

At the time, I felt it was wrong - the way she was being treated, but I didn't feel as if I had the right to speak up about it, because I was just a kid myself. My mom didn't tell me to stop being friends with her, and she embraced my friend and encouraged her to keep her head up and keep going. Also, the young man who got her pregnant, attended the same church, and none of the rebuke or cruelty fell on him.

I know the OP wasn't about teen pregnancy, but the situation is still a bit similar. The onus always falls on the woman, unfortunately. I'm glad that my friend kept going and ignored all of the people who tried to tear her down. She got married a year later and her son is growing up to be a GREAT young man. She didn't do well because of the rebuke she got from the people in church, but in spite of it, and due to the support she received from her family and friends.

No one made her feel like what got her into the situation of being pregnant OOW (fornication) was the right thing to do. Not at all. But no one in her support system made her feel like a failure, or less than, either. Only God can read our hearts. If we sin (any sin), we need to sincerely repent to God our Heavenly Father and ask for His forgiveness. IMHO, our relationship with God and how He views us is far more important than what other people think about us, or perceive us to be because of our past mistakes.

TraciChanel, I cried reading this post. I don't even know your friend, but yet I cried and I felt like I were her.

While I am not condoning sex outside of marriage, I just cannot imagine how sad and heartbreaking it was for your friend to have to face this horrid treatment from those church members. The bolded just did me in.

Can you tell your friend something for me? Please tell her that she is an amazing and strong woman. She continued to serve God in the midst of all of the firey darts and swords and daggers against her. She continued, she prevailed and she is indeed a woman of honor.

Personally, I can promise you that I am not up on a 'high horse', but I would have left that Church, yet your friend stayed and I have to give her recognition for that. Please give her a great big hug and that I said thank you for being so strong in such a harsh environment.

Traci, I'm so glad that you were there for her. You didn't have to speak up, you were there and that indeed helped to stay strong. God bless you.

For your friend and her precious child whom she chose to love and carry in the midst of such a painful storm.

 

[TraciChanel]

Aww..thank You so much Shimmie. I will definitely tell her what you said. That will make her day

And yes, I totally agree about not condoning sex before marriage.

My friend made a mistake in her youth, but she repented and didn't turn away from God and she is truly blessed. They have a beautiful family now (she had another son after they married).

TraciChanel, I cried reading this post. I don't even know your friend, but yet I cried and I felt like I were her. While I am not condoning sex outside of marriage, I just cannot imagine how sad and heartbreaking it was for your friend to have to face this horrid treatment from those church members. The bolded just did me in. Can you tell your friend something for me? Please tell her that she is an amazing and strong woman. She continued to serve God in the midst of all of the firey darts and swords and daggers against her. She continued, she prevailed and she is indeed a woman of honor. Personally, I can promise you that I am not up on a 'high horse', but I would have left that Church, yet your friend stayed and I have to give her recognition for that. Please give her a great big hug and that I said thank you for being so strong in such a harsh environment. Traci, I'm so glad that you were there for her. You didn't have to speak up, you were there and that indeed helped to stay strong. God bless you. For your friend and her precious child whom she chose to love and carry in the midst of such a painful storm.

Sent from my iPhone using LHCF

 

[JaneBond007]

This is true and I'm glad you shared this. The Bible is clear on how a husband must treat his wife, which is tenderly and with love. Sexual abuse in marriage is definitely 'fornication', for it is not within the love of marriage.

I never even thought of it that way. Great observation! What I was thinking about was expending that sexual energy in a way that was not h-ly and I guess it somewhat means via orgasm outside the physical union - the mind, lust etc. In judaism, pre-marital sex is not the ideal but it is not punished as it is in christianity - yet, christians come via the Jews. The term refers to so much more. If people thought of the various ways a man treats a woman with unh-ly intent (her future, the child's?), maybe they would blame them more.

 

[Shimmie]

Aww..thank You so much Shimmie. I will definitely tell her what you said. That will make her day

And yes, I totally agree about not condoning sex before marriage.

My friend made a mistake in her youth, but she repented and didn't turn away from God and she is truly blessed. They have a beautiful family now (she had another son after they married).

Sent from my iPhone using LHCF

I wish her all of the best; Blessings to her Hubby for being her 'Hubby'. I love men who choose to marry. They're showing respect for women.

 

[Shimmie]

I never even thought of it that way. Great observation! What I was thinking about was expending that sexual energy in a way that was not h-ly and I guess it somewhat means via orgasm outside the physical union - the mind, lust etc.

In judaism, pre-marital sex is not the ideal but it is not punished as it is in christianity - yet, christians come via the Jews.

The term refers to so much more. If people thought of the various ways a man treats a woman with unh-ly intent (her future, the child's?), maybe they would blame them more.

JaneBond... What about the Jewish laws in the Old Testament? Sex outside of marriage was punishable back then. How did they get away from that?

 

[JaneBond007]

JaneBond... What about the Jewish laws in the Old Testament? Sex outside of marriage was punishable back then. How did they get away from that?

People would be surprised as to what the writings actually say about pre-marital sex. Obviously, marital sex is the ideal but the Torah actually doesn't mention pre-marital sex overtly. Adultery was punishable, beastiality and other perversions but not pre-marital sex (right at this moment, I'm trying hard to figure out if I'm going to be Jewish or christian come Shabbat ). Now, culturally, pre-marital sex went on enough for it to be regulated. Much of our fear of pre-marital sex is culturally mandated in the world. But you know, in thinking of Mary, it didn't say that Joseph was going to have her killed. He was a righteous man (meaning???...compassionate? I dunno.) and as not willing to have her publicly humiliated but why? They were engaged/bethrothed? They were already in the first step of marriage. I'm not sure if it would have been considered adultery or not. Evidently, they could break off this portion of the betrothal and move on.

Matthew 1:19 BBE Bible in Basic English
And Joseph, her husband, being an upright man, and not desiring to make her a public example, had a mind to put her away privately.

Matthew 1:19 CJB Complete Jewish Bible
Her husband-to-be, Yosef, was a man who did what was right; so he made plans to break the engagement quietly, rather than put her to public shame.

Why it's a mortal sin in catholicism is my question. Maybe St. Paul was elevating marriage? At some point, whatever is bound on earth is bound in heaven? I do believe in marital values, don't get me wrong. But there are many questions about it as well, based upon history and what the faith has evolved from. Here's something sort of an informal exegesis from an orthodox christian point of view (Disclaimer: if you are weak of heart, please don't read these, avoid them. I am not going to be held responsible for weakening your faith. ):

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=35214.885;imode

And this one:

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/life/Sex_and_Sexuality/Premarital_Sex.shtml

 

[Shimmie]

People would be surprised as to what the writings actually say about pre-marital sex. Obviously, marital sex is the ideal but the Torah actually doesn't mention pre-marital sex overtly. Adultery was punishable, beastiality and other perversions but not pre-marital sex (right at this moment, I'm trying hard to figure out if I'm going to be Jewish or christian come Shabbat ). Now, culturally, pre-marital sex went on enough for it to be regulated. Much of our fear of pre-marital sex is culturally mandated in the world. But you know, in thinking of Mary, it didn't say that Joseph was going to have her killed. He was a righteous man (meaning???...compassionate? I dunno.) and as not willing to have her publicly humiliated but why? They were engaged/bethrothed? They were already in the first step of marriage. I'm not sure if it would have been considered adultery or not. Evidently, they could break off this portion of the betrothal and move on.

Matthew 1:19 BBE Bible in Basic English
And Joseph, her husband, being an upright man, and not desiring to make her a public example, had a mind to put her away privately.

Matthew 1:19 CJB Complete Jewish Bible
Her husband-to-be, Yosef, was a man who did what was right; so he made plans to break the engagement quietly, rather than put her to public shame.

Why it's a mortal sin in catholicism is my question. Maybe St. Paul was elevating marriage? At some point, whatever is bound on earth is bound in heaven? I do believe in marital values, don't get me wrong. But there are many questions about it as well, based upon history and what the faith has evolved from. Here's something sort of an informal exegesis from an orthodox christian point of view (Disclaimer: if you are weak of heart, please don't read these, avoid them. I am not going to be held responsible for weakening your faith. ):

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=35214.885;imode

And this one:

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/life/Sex_and_Sexuality/Premarital_Sex.shtml

Welp!

Seriously, something has been taken out of context. Just because the Torah didn't mention 'pre-marital' sex, it does emphasize Marriage and sex is only mentioned within the context of Marriage and never mentioned outside of Marriage. Which concludes that sex is for Marriage only and between a man and a woman.

Further meaning that it is clearly understood that sex before marriage is not permissible.

Disclaimer: This comment is not towards you. Again, this comment is not towards you. I need to make this perfectly clear, Jane, the following comment is not about you. Am I clear?

Okay, here's my comment:

Folks stay tryin' to make something out of what something is not, just because the Bible did not make a specific mention of a particular word or term. Example: gay marriage. According to the gays and their supporters, because Jesus did not speak against gay marriage, it means that he validated it. That 'reach' is so long that they're falling overboard into the murky waters with the sharks.

I just sayin'....

Folks be steady tryin' and reachin' for stuff that's not even there just to validate their sin.

Joseph and Mary were engaged; had they been married she would not been a Virgin in the sense of never haven been touched (never have had intercourse) outside nor inside of Marriage. The Word of God is clear that Mary was indeed a Virgin. Therefore premarital sex was indeed a sin in the eyes of God or He would not have chosen her womb to carry His Son.

The 'name' Wife was always associated with sex... 'he knew his wife.. etc.

I was to share more but I'm at my desk...

@Iwanthealthyhair67, @MrsHaseeb, @Laela,

Help... Please.

I do not see where pre-maritial sex was not considered a sin in the Old Testament. It was always a sin. God designed sex to be between marriage only.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

Welp!

Seriously, something has been taken out of context. Just because the Torah didn't mention 'pre-marital' sex, it does emphasize Marriage and sex is only mentioned within the context of Marriage and never mentioned outside of Marriage. Which concludes that sex is for Marriage only and between a man and a woman.

Further meaning that it is clearly understood that sex before marriage is not permissible.

Disclaimer: This comment is not towards you. Again, this comment is not towards you. I need to make this perfectly clear, Jane, the following comment is not about you. Am I clear?

Okay, here's my comment:

Folks stay tryin' to make something out of what something is not, just because the Bible did not make a specific mention of a particular word or term. Example: gay marriage. According to the gays and their supporters, because Jesus did not speak against gay marriage, it means that he validated it. That 'reach' is so long that they're falling overboard into the murky waters with the sharks.

I just sayin'....

Folks be steady tryin' and reachin' for stuff that's not even there just to validate their sin.

Joseph and Mary were engaged; had they been married she would not been a Virgin in the sense of never haven been touched (never have had intercourse) outside nor inside of Marriage. The Word of God is clear that Mary was indeed a Virgin. Therefore premarital sex was indeed a sin in the eyes of God or He would not have chosen her womb to carry His Son.

The 'name' Wife was always associated with sex... 'he knew his wife.. etc.

I was to share more but I'm at my desk...

@Iwanthealthyhair67, @MrsHaseeb, @Laela,

Help... Please.

I do not see where pre-maritial sex was not considered a sin in the Old Testament. It was always a sin. God designed sex to be between marriage only.

All one needs to do is look around at society and see the destruction premarital sex had caused. I'd call that God's judgment and partially a lack of education, sometimes lack of education in church. STDs, fatherless youth (especially the black youth), hurt angry women becoming lesbians, etc. The only person who could try to justify fornication is one who has no understanding of God's nature nor His original design. But we are under the new covenant where we have access to the Holy Spirit to empower us to live like Christ and the new testament IS NOT silent about the matter. The Bible reveals God's nature, so if it's a sin now, why would God have ignored it then? Views like that really irk me. That's all some weak minded believer needs to read to end up in fornication.