Hair Doesn't Need Proteins

[vkb247]

This is just one of the things that the beauty chemist over at the Beauty Brains website have said that go against a lot of what we hold dear at LHCF. Here is what they had to say about protein treatments.

"Although, hair is made of protein, it’s dead. So putting protein on top of the protein in your hair doesn’t really make it “healthy.” But the right kind of proteins used at the right levels can act as a conditioning agent that can form a protective film on the hair. So it’s not that your hair needs protein, it’s that it needs SOMETHING to form that protective layer. Proteins will do it to some extent, but there are other ingredients (like fatty quaternium compounds or silicones, that will work even better. So protein conditioners like Mane ‘n Tail are good for your hair, but not necessarily BECAUSE they contain protein."

Here is a link to that article and some more about protein:

http://thebeautybrains.com/2007/05/01/do-i-really-need-to-put-protein-on-my-hair/

http://thebeautybrains.com/2006/04/22/78/ Interesting quote from this article: "Strictly speaking, moisture is water but moisturizers can be oils or silicones."

http://thebeautybrains.com/2007/01/11/the-truth-about-silk-and-cashmere-proteins/


Here is some info they did on conditioners:

http://thebeautybrains.com/2006/08/03/how-long-do-you-have-to-leave-conditioners-in-your-hair/: "90% of the benefit from standard conditioners come from coating the surface of the hair. That’s not a bad thing - in fact, the best thing you can do for hair is to smooth and protect the cuticle (that shingle-like layer that covers your hair.) Yes, you have to take the time to work the product through your hair to make sure it’s evenly distributed (especially if you have a lot of hair.) But once the conditioner has had a chance to spread through your hair, leaving it on longer doesn’t make it do anything better. This part is very important - YOU HAVE TO WORK THE CONDITIONER EVENLY THROUGH YOUR HAIR! That process may take you a few minutes. But once you’ve done that part well, you can rinse."

http://thebeautybrains.com/2006/08/...-between-rinse-out-and-leave-in-conditioners/

http://thebeautybrains.com/2006/07/...n-a-regular-hair-conditioner-and-a-treatment/: "In many cases there’s not really very much difference between regular conditioners and deep conditioning treatments. What you’re hearing is the sweet, sweet sound of Marketing hype."

I don't agree with everything they say, especially because they don't seem to understand the unique needs of curly dry hair, but they make a lot of valid points and I visit the site on a regular to do research about beauty products and ingredients. Hope this helps out some ladies who love info like me and might not have run into thus website yet.

 

[Neith]

I agree with you. Not everything they say is right, but they do make some valid points.

I personally hate when good info is mixed in with BS though

About protein, they are right in a way. However, all "films" aren't the same. The coating you get from a regular DC is not as long lasting or "brittle". Therefore, there are some people who do benefit from having a tougher, more durable and strong coating.

 

[Brooklyn72]

Interesting info. I have had apl to bsl hair many times in my lifetime without protein and deep conditioning. While I don't believe it is neccessary it can't hurt. I have started incorporating DC and protein treaments as an experiment of my own to see if it makes a difference for my hair.

 

[vkb247]

I think that what they say might always be true for somebody, but they always state their responses as if they are the absolute truth and there are no exceptions. A lot of the stuff they say about hair seems to not account for "ethnic" hair at all.

Neith: With the protein thing they are saying that fatty quaternium compounds or silicones actually work better than proteins and I believe this because most protein molecules are pretty big and can't penetrate the hair and when manufacturers break them down into smaller sizes they lose some of their ability to cling to hair so more of them wash away when the hair is rinsed. I know that silicones cling like almost nothing else and can last through more than a few wash days. That's why I stay away from them.

 

[WhipEffectz1]

Some people hair don't need that muchbprotein but my hair do so I will do what works for my hair...........

 

[Tee]

Everything works differently for everyone. I guess it's proof just looking around here that it works for 'some' people.

Some think grease is needed.
Some think cowashing is silly.
Some think "Proteins" aren't needed.
Some think you can flat iron with oils/grease.
Some think cooch cream and animal products grow the hair.

^^while others will argue you down in the grown all of the above works/does not work for them.^^
OT....OP your hair is beautiful in your siggy!

**I will add, proteins work for me.

 

[vkb247]

The Beauty Brains are not saying that protein doesn't work. They are just saying that you don't have to use portein - there are other substances that will do the same thing and maybe even do it better.


@Tee: Thank you so much! That really means a lot to me coming from you with that beautiful head of hair . I'm just trying to get to where you are :notworthy

 

[lexi84]

This is just one of the things that the beauty chemist over at the Beauty Brains website have said that go against a lot of what we hold dear at LHCF. Here is what they had to say about protein treatments.

"Although, hair is made of protein, it’s dead. So putting protein on top of the protein in your hair doesn’t really make it “healthy.” But the right kind of proteins used at the right levels can act as a conditioning agent that can form a protective film on the hair. So it’s not that your hair needs protein, it’s that it needs SOMETHING to form that protective layer. Proteins will do it to some extent, but there are other ingredients (like fatty quaternium compounds or silicones, that will work even better. So protein conditioners like Mane ‘n Tail are good for your hair, but not necessarily BECAUSE they contain protein."

I agree with the bolded. This is why Aphogee and other protein conditioners/reconstuctors recommend you re-apply their product after a certain amount of time has passed. Eventually the protein is rinsed off.

But the rest of this I question. I dont care what that article says, my hair needs some form of protein after some time. There's really no way around that.

But this is very interesting. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Tee]

@Tee: Thank you so much! That really means a lot to me coming from you with that beautiful head of hair . I'm just trying to get to where you are :notworthy

Thanks lady!! I love your texture. I will be in your fotki today to take a closer glimpse.

 

[Finewine]

Who are beauty brains and where are pictures of their hair?

Protein works for me, so I will continue to use it.

 

[Muse]

I think this is along the lines of what Victor Sabino was telling me. He also said deep conditioner treatments are hype but what you really need is that protective barrier to coat the strand protecting it and sealing in moisture. I tend to believe this because it is working for me. I always wear rubber gloves when I do dishes and as a result my hands don't get dry, the gloves protect my hands and hold the moisture in. Well I feel the same way about silicon for my hair it is protecting it from dryness and damage. Now if I never took those gloves off eventually I would suffer from dry hands because I am not replenishing moisture, with hair if you don't properly remove the cones you WILL suffer dryness so you remove, replenish, reapply. Also if I put those same gloves on without putting lotion on my hands they will be dry even though they haven't touched the dishwater. So you do have to make sure your hair is moisturized before you seal with cones.

As for protein being needed IMO i don't think natural hair needs it all. I am leaning towards yes for relaxed. It is interesting to hear how they work though.

 

[Evolving78]

i didn't get any protein treatments when i was growing my hair (relaxed). i used a leave-in spray that had a light protein in it, but i didn't do anything hard core. i don't really use protein that much now. my hair needs more moisture more than anything.

 

[vkb247]

Who are beauty brains and where are pictures of their hair?

Protein works for me, so I will continue to use it.

www.thebeautybrains.com

They are beauty chemists who write a blog and have a forum. They talk a lot about ingredients and answer beauty questions.

I've never seen them or their hair. I read the blog because I am interested in the science behind beauty products.

ETA/OT: I'm trying to update my fotki for you guys. It kinda looks like crap at the moment

 

[chebaby]

well for years i never used proteins and my hair never got past just below sl. i never deep conditioned either and i can see that deep conditioning and proteins are really worth it. i still dont do heavy protein but i do shampoo with aphogee and deep condition with olive oil replenishing pak. my hair feels better than it ever has. in fact i decided about 2 weeks ago that im going to be using more protein shampoo and conditioners that moisturize and stregnthen rather than all moisture.

 

[Creatividual]

I think like Tee said, you just have to do what works best for your hair. I've tried it all and received great results. These days, I don't do the protein as much anymore and still have great results. I've reached APL before I got into haircare and didn't do any DCs or protein treatments so it really just depends. Ya gotta do you. I can agree with some of the articles arguments though. Your hair is dead after it pushes out of your scalp. All the things that we do to care for it are simply ways to "preserve" it I guess you can say. But yeah, do you. If it works for you, then it works for you. Happy Hair Growing ladies!

 

[newflowers]

The Beauty Brains is an interesting website that does appear to try to use known established science to give information about cosmetic products for hair and skin. In reading there this morning, I found some interesting information - some with which I agreed, and some with which I did not - and I did not because it is contrary to my experience.

I think that science does a great deal of research for hair (which is the topic of our discussion)products, what they do, what ingredients work and which don't. I also know the majority of the science is not done for the hair of black women. I have numerous white friends and family and biracial children and grandchildren what works for their hair is not necessarily going to work for my hair - in fact, it often does not. My type 4b relaxed hair is different from theirs. It was different when it was not relaxed. No blame; no big deal; just the fact whether proven by science or not, my hair is different from theirs, and I maintain that most scientific studies are done for white hair - which makes sense given that type of hair is for the majority of the world's population.

Have you ever used a "deep protein" condition immediately following a relaxer - if you have, you know that protein does indeed enter the hair shaft because you lovely relaxed hair will look like it's never seen a chemical. Ever used a protein and did not use a moisturizing conditioner after - did you see your hair brittle and snap and break - that's not because the protein coating is protecting your hair. The Ayurvedic treatments have been successfully used for thousands of years, yet they are new for us. Is there science that proves these work? Does the lack of scientific study mean they don't?

The wonders of science cannot be denied, but neither can the need for more scientific study, especially as it pertains to the topic at hand - the hair care of black women. For myself, I have learned the value of proteins and deep conditioning - I know how to use them properly, and I have received great benefits from doing so. My trials and error and trail and success and ability to repeat the results are my own scientific study.

Show me the study on conditioners - protein and mositure - and it applies to black women with relaxed and natural hair: until then...

 

[vkb247]

Newflowers I reallt appreciate your response. Don't let anybody else tell you what to do with your hair girl. I know I do what I need to do whether its popular or not.

I'm not agreeeing with everything the beauty brains say or promoting them as the end all be all to hair care. I'm just saying that they make some interesting points, I have learned things from their sight, and sometimes it is good to consider the scientific side of beauty if you are really into getting down to the nitty gritty.

As for protein....I am not supporting the idea that protein does not work...however I do believe that other substances may work better. I believe that the beauty brains argument fits with other information I have read about silicones and other substances that coat the hair. Someone might want to see if another approach will work better for their hair. If you have found that proteins work for you than please don't fix what ain't broke.

I just wanted to share some interesting information with you ladies, please don't think that I am trying to say that your are not doing the right thing.

 

[Rastafarai]

All I know is that I need my Nexxus Emergencee.

 

[Urban]

"Although, hair is made of protein, it’s dead. So putting protein on top of the protein in your hair doesn’t really make it “healthy.” But the right kind of proteins used at the right levels can act as a conditioning agent that can form a protective film on the hair. So it’s not that your hair needs protein, it’s that it needs SOMETHING to form that protective layer. Proteins will do it to some extent, but there are other ingredients (like fatty quaternium compounds or silicones, that will work even better. So protein conditioners like Mane ‘n Tail are good for your hair, but not necessarily BECAUSE they contain protein."

I think one thing that was for gotten here is the strengthening ability of proteins in conditioners. I don't think anyone can deny that. Although there is some information floating around the www that silicone strengthens hair, but it's from companies that are selling products with silicone in them. There may be some strength imparted by silicones but I don't know that it's to the same extent as proteins. Maybe someone who has the patience to search for journal articles can give us more insight into this.

But imagine getting a moisture overload, and instead of doing a protein treatment - apply a silicone mixture (like chi silk infusion). I just don't know if you'd get the same result.


Don't get me wrong though, I believe in silicones, but not as a replacement for proteins.

http://thebeautybrains.com/2006/04/22/78/ Interesting quote from this article: "Strictly speaking, moisture is water but moisturizers can be oils or silicones."

Try not using water and use only oils and silicones for the next 2 - 3 weeks. Then come back and let us know how "moisturized" your hair is. .

Although, I think this may actually be a semantics issue. On their website it seems they use the word moisturize to mean something that aids in retaining moisture. So they may not mean that water is unnecessary - i hope.

http://thebeautybrains.com/2006/07/...n-a-regular-hair-conditioner-and-a-treatment/: "In many cases there’s not really very much difference between regular conditioners and deep conditioning treatments. What you’re hearing is the sweet, sweet sound of Marketing hype."

That's true, which is why most LHCF ladies watch ingredients in products like a hawk!

I really like thebeautybrains. They have some really good info on their site and I am a regular reader. I just don't take everything they say as the be-all-end-all.

 

[MonPetite]

If they are talking about unpermed, uncolored NON-Afro-type hair....

Than that is true.

If you relax your hair....Use protein.

If you perm...use protein.

If you color...use protein.

If you're natural...you actually have more defined curls with protein.

The KEY is how LITTLE or how MUCH and what TYPE of protein your hair needs.

Hair needs DCs. The question is HOW OFTEN. My natural hair needs more DCs than my relaxed!!

Sorry, but if I over process or use bleach...I'm going to DC. Why? Because if I don't my hair breaks off. There's my "science".

They need to state that their viewpoints do NOT apply to all.

Having good info and valid points is one thing. Presenting them as absolute truth for EVERYONE, ALL THE TIME....

Honestly!

They DID knock LHCF in the past for the MN = growth aid debate. So this shouldn't be surprising.

 

[newflowers]

VKB - I absolutely agree that learning new information, especially proven scientific information, is necessary in learning what do to care for skin and hair. To quote the oft repeated line from this site: not everything works for everyone. I also think that by its very nature, science is cautious and time consuming - before saying something works, there must be numerous experiments and trials before the scientific community will make a definitive statement about something.

Yet those very trials can be skewed - consider that for many years, breast cancer research was performed on first animals and then men, but the results from those experiments where used to treat women - until science realized the "proof" was not applicable to women, who are far more likely than men to get breast cancer and whose bodies react differently than men's. The initial scientific experimentation took decades and then decades more before the science community figured out women's bodies are different and the results were skewed as a result of using men instead of women in trials. At this same time, there were others who said the science was incorrect, yet they were discounted. Consider folk and herbal remedies that work - that we know to work - yet in this day and age, these remedies cannot be proven valid unless there is scientific studies to prove that which is known, in the meantime, they are discounted and often ridiculed. We live in an era where science and technology has virtually taken the place of God, and scientific results carry significant weight - even if they are later proved wrong.


At the same time, scientific advancements in all areas of our lives have greatly improved the quality of life in myriad ways. And I certainly appreciate the many and significant ways that science has enriched and improved our lives. I just think there is more room for error and doubt than the scientific community is sometimes willing to admit.

 

[Highly Favored8]

Protien does wonders for my hair.

 

[vkb247]

Newflowers girl you better preach it!

The Beauty Brains had an article about how natural products don't equal better which of course is not always the case because plenty of things that are natural can still irritate or even kill you. One of the readers commented that the only thing that natural has over artificial is that fact that it has been tried on human beings in real life situations for countless years. I seriously don't think that she must have heard herself. Shoot, hundreds of thousands of Indian women with long beautiful hair is proof enough for me girl. I definitely don't believe tested and tried in a laboratory is usually the best solution.

I am an info junkie and I believe that even bad information can serve a purpose for anyone who enjoys researching and finding out the truth themselves after a new idea comes their way. I also believe that the mark of an educated mind is the ability to entertain an idea without necessarily adopting that idea. So I try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Now that I have this info about proteins I might try to experiment a little next time I feel like I need the properties that a protein can provide.

I love increasing my knowledge!

 

[tkj25]

thanks for the link. can't say that i agree with everything posted on that site, but still there is ALOT of good info -- love their product reviews & their scientific take on hair.

 

[Allandra]

Well, everyone's hair is different. My hair likes only light protein. I've never felt a need to use a hard core protein.

 

[Nonie]

Well, everyone's hair is different. My hair likes only light protein. I've never felt a need to use a hard core protein.

Ditto what Allandra said.

I am going to do some research on this. I have come to find that so-called scientists don't always get it right. I didn't know about protein and its use on hair (or even realized I had ever used one) until I read Cathy Howse and that was around the time I joined this forum. Cathy's conditioner was a mixture of protein and moisture (a reconstructor is what I believe that's called) and I have always used one since then and I have never regretted it. I also do know that when my jheri curl was breaking all over the place many years ago, it was Emergencee that nipped that in butt. My stylist then was a self-proclaimed scientist and he believed in protein strengthening hair. He loved Nexxus products and I guess you could say he was the Paula Begoun of hair products as he rambled on about how basic ingredients are what makes a product work, not the fancy names. It was more info than my poor head could fathom so I didn't really listen, but I was convinced he knew his stuff. Maybe I'll drop him a line to ask what he thinks.

I'll also see what other info I can find. Urban, I think you echoed my sentiments...but again, it's mostly belief without any real scientific support.

I do have a question. Are nails dead too? I ask because I know CLAWS, a protein sold by Puritan's Pride that you apply to nails but that isn't an enamel, strengthens my nails big time. I thought the idea behind protein treatments was the same as such a nail treatment. Not just coating but actually "patching up weak spots to strengthen".

 

[newflowers]

I do have a question. Are nails dead too? I ask because I know CLAWS, a protein sold by Puritan's Pride that you apply to nails but that isn't an enamel, strengthens my nails big time. I thought the idea behind protein treatments was the same as such a nail treatment. Not just coating but actually "patching up weak spots to strengthen".

Yes - kind of my point about the science not telling or knowing all. Nails are protein and using a similar product strengthens my nails - just as using protein products on my hair at regular intervals helps with the same. I do think - and there is a thread about it somewhere by a former member who is a scientist- that protein can have molecules small enough to enter the hair shaft and there are proteins of larger molecular size that cannot enter but instead coat the hair shaft.

​

 

[Muse]

I don't think they're saying proteins don't work but that they work in a different way than we thought they did and that you could use silicons to do the same thing as a protein does.

 

[vkb247]

nevermind.....

 

[yuriko]

I think there is some wisdom here. I know some white women paying $50 for a protein reconstructor, because they believe it is protein and will last forever in their hair. Protein can certainly be overhyped when its over-expensive. I love my aphogee 2 min, but I think its important to note that it doesn't last as long as we think. Therefore I will continue to use it every two weeks.