Is type 4b hair uncommon?

[Nonie]

I replied that I am type 4a/b. Mostly because of what I've seen here on this forum.

After reading this though, I don't think I am. While i think some people conflate the level of coarseness with curl diameter (what measure are we using for typing anyways) I don't think any of my hair fits in measures of 4b.

-I have a definable curl pattern.
-I have never spied a single zigzag strand anywhere on my head, ever. I'm still searching.

The reasons why its confusing:
- I have a lot of frizz. Like lots.
-Unlike a lot of people, my hair MOSTLY doesn't make coils that easily when I shingle it, it makes S waves (albeit small ones.) Quite a lot of my hair that does coil has those weird little irregularities, like where the coil seems to suddenly change directions. Individual strands will sort of coil, like my shed hair will often make spirals before eventually collapsing into O's (sometimes.)
-As you can probably gather, my hair has little to no consistency (I even have random strands that look straight! no head damage, just randomly placed all over my head, and I've always had them... they look straight because their curl/wave diameter is a loooot wider than the rest of my hair.)--and it's not even really long enough to completely hang yet, so I'm not really sure what's going on.
--If pressed I would honestly define Nonie's hair as 4a. It kind of reminds me of my sisters. Her curl diameter is tinnnny (probably smaller than Nonies in a lot of places) but it needs just about ZERO coaxing to see some sort of coil definition. She's mentioned finding zig zag strands.

I think hair like Jennboo and Mooks is really interesting and looks really cool... it seems lighter and fluffier but as they say, no curl pattern.

But yeah, where are the small S-wave/somewhat coily/doesn't seem to coil as easily as others 4a's with NO zigzags and like, 80-90% possible clumpage? What type does that make me

I believe if I shingled my hair, I'd get waves. Shingling involves applying something that weighs on the hair and stretches it and brushing to encourage the stretching and then going under a dryer with the strands stretched so they'd dry like that then finger combing. That's because with the size of the coil, the coils need to be open to clump in a way that's visible for a style to be visible but not so straight that they look like blow-dried hair.

When people with 4B hair go to Miss Jessie's to get that shingled look, if they don't want a silkener, they get it set in some coiling way to form the illusion of 4A or 3 hair like the lady who's third on this page: http://www.missjessies.com/beforeafter3.html

The fact that you have curls with large hair diameter could mean you have two types of hair. All my coils look the same all over my head.

My hair can never be 4A. When you say that my hair just falls into coils with minimal coaxing, you forget that you can only see that on a small section. On the whole you wouldn't see anything. It would look like this:

4A hair can behave like 4B hair in that it can be combed into an afro and can hold a style too. It can also appear to bend every which way especially when out of braids. I believe the curl size is what makes it behave differently so that it clumps more easily and shows the coils more easily.

BTW, the irregularities of hair bending this way and that way is a character of all curly hair. Even phone coils will bend awkwardly in a spot for no apparent reason. The narrower the diameter of the "string" in question, the more this awkward bending occurs. I tried to show this on Nadia's 4A hair:

Interestingly that's happening on clumps but still the diameter of the clump is small enough for it to do that.

You can see those irregular bends in other naturally curly hair:

 

[NerdSauce]

My hair can never be 4A. When you say that my hair just falls into coils with minimal coaxing, you forget that you can only see that on a small section.

Thanks for your reply. Actually I think my hair sometimes looks a lot like Nadia's hair, with a few slight differences. I need to get around to just posting a picture.

And when I was talking about hair falling into coils with minimal coaxing, I was referring mainly to my sisters coils. I know that you said your hair had to be smoothed into those boingy springs (which I am mad jealous of. If I have a completely regular boingy curl anywhere on my head, I haven't quite seen it yet.)

 

[Kurlee]

Is there anyone who has 4b hair according to your perception?

And for the people who claim to have no curl pattern/wave/kink/coil do you have pics/closeups i'm curious to see what 4b is from anyone who says i'm not.

yes. I have seen people with that crinkly z pattern hair, but it is rare. The hair isn't super sharp z like many are describing, but the pattern is sharp angles instead of rounded, if that makes sense and it has that puffy straight look. I rarely see it though.

To be honest, I think this hair typing thing is really separating people into good hair/bad hair categories indirectly. I really feel like despite learning new hair practices, many still truly believe that 3's have good hair, and 4b is the "bad" hair. The reason why people voluntarily jump into the 4b category when their hair is clearly curly, I don't understand that. I don't really see many saying they are a 3 hair type when they are not, so the reverse, I find interesting. I think people truly believe in their gut that certain hair types only are on "certain people" and that's why we have these long threads breaking down hair types to a science when in reality the categories don't mean much. This thread and a few others show how misinformed we still are about our hair and how much emotional weight our hair carries.

 

[msa]

I really feel like despite learning new hair practices, many still truly believe that 3's have good hair, and 4b is the "bad" hair. The reason why people voluntarily jump into the 4b category when their hair is clearly curly, I don't understand that. I don't really see many saying they are a 3 hair type when they are not, so the reverse, I find interesting.

Regarding the bold, because then when they post a thread about their "4b" hair it makes them feel good when everyone runs in, oohs and aaahs over their obvious curls, and tells them they're actually a type 3 and have good hair.

 

[Rocky91]

Regarding the bold, because then when they post a thread about their "4b" hair it makes them feel good when everyone runs in, oohs and aaahs over their obvious curls, and tells them they're actually a type 3 and have good hair.

you're gonna hurt somebody's feelings with this.
but i'll admit i kind of agree.

 

[SND411]

Regarding the bold, because then when they post a thread about their "4b" hair it makes them feel good when everyone runs in, oohs and aaahs over their obvious curls, and tells them they're actually a type 3 and have good hair.

So true, MSA. Like fishing for compliments.

 

[SND411]

Why do we have to be so complicated? If you know how to take care of your hair after 2 years, why are you still hung up on hair type?

 

[Kurlee]

you're gonna hurt somebody's feelings with this.
but i'll admit i kind of agree.

Man msa doesn't mince words. I agree though, but I think there's more to it.

 

[Kurlee]

Why do we have to be so complicated? If you know how to take care of your hair after 2 years, why are you still hung up on hair type?

compulsion to categorize and explain why your hair looks, behaves the way it does. In reality though, it really isn't that serious

 

[SND411]

compulsion to categorize and explain why your hair looks, behaves the way it does. In reality though, it really isn't that serious

It seems like everything with black people ALWAYS has to be complicated. I mean, look at skin color for instance. In Brazil and other countries with a large black population, it is said there is like over 200 different words black people describe themselves, and BLACK not even being on of them!!!!

I thought hair typing was to get the best products for your hair.

You know what I'll never understand? When people say. I am 4a/b with 3c STRANDS. I mean, WHAT IS THE POINT OF THAT!

 

[Nonie]

^^ True. When I first heard of typing, I thought it was useful because it helped you decide on products to use. But it doesn't. My hair hates all things people like regardless of type except S Curl. Creams/cremes suck. Butters suck. Gels suck. Maybe I just have mutant hair.

But you're all right, unless you are trying to find out whose regimen to follow what does it matter???

 

[SND411]

^^ True. When I first heard of typing, I thought it was useful because it helped you decide on products to use. But it doesn't. My hair hates all things people like regardless of type except S Curl. Creams/cremes suck. Butters suck. Gels suck. Maybe I just have mutant hair.

But you're all right, unless you are trying to find out whose regimen to follow what does it matter???

Growing up in a Nigerian household, I was NEVER told I had bad hair. In fact, people always drooled over my hair saying how thick it was. So with me, it's not even about texture. I like THICK hair.

 

[Rocky91]

^^ True. When I first heard of typing, I thought it was useful because it helped you decide on products to use. But it doesn't. My hair hates all things people like regardless of type except S Curl. Creams/cremes suck. Butters suck. Gels suck. Maybe I just have mutant hair.

But you're all right, unless you are trying to find out whose regimen to follow what does it matter???

and there we have it-the bottom line, folks. as a (dare I say it?) 4a/b natural, I've gotten the BEST product/regimen recommendations from Traycee on KISS, who's relaxed. which might not be the greatest example to prove my point, since we're still in the same type family (although she's relaxed), but you get my point. for me, personally, i don't find this hair-typing stuff incredibly useful.
a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[Nonie]

Regarding the bold, because then when they post a thread about their "4b" hair it makes them feel good when everyone runs in, oohs and aaahs over their obvious curls, and tells them they're actually a type 3 and have good hair.

But 4B hair also can look like the green part of a sponge that provides the scrubbing function too, so what's all the excitement with having curls. Methinks they just know 4B rocks and 4B can do a lot of things other hair can't do and so they wanna be with the cool hair.

To be honest, I haven't seen anyone claim 4B that I didn't agree with. And many who thought were 4B later realize they aren't and they don't fight to be what they aren't ie 4B. I just think people are shocked that 4B hair is finally being accepted as OK hair and hence the assumption that it's good hurr pulling us all into this bunch.

I mean 4B hair has kinks (tight coils) but it doesn't look anything like 3 so I dunno. Maybe I can't see the "ooh I wanna be 4B coz it has cute curls" being a reason to claim it when you can claim 4A which IMO behaves more like 3.

Anyway I can't talk for people. Just like I don't understand the aversion to hair I love so, I can't understand the assumption that people would claim coz of curls that never even show up.

If curls are what draws majority to 4B and not the fact that a huge chunk of the African race has 4B, then will knowing that it is also the same hair that looks CNapp drive them away?

 

[Desarae]

Well i'm now claiming 1a hair because i'm relaxed and my hair dries straight. Thank you all!

 

[keepithealthy]

I seem to have quite a few textures on my head. It's really loose in the back and up around the crown of my head is 3b but not like some 3b's I've seen. (My hair seems to have a lot of texture just very loosely curled...dunno if that makes since). Then the inner circle is 4a visibly small spiral curls with a small inner patch being very very very drrrry I thought it was 4b but after a couple of good dc's and keeping it moisturized realized it was 4a too. It is still drier than the rest of my head and I usually have to moisturize that part more. What's weird is scattered through out my head especially in the front are pieces of 3a hair. I mean these pieces are literally silky smooth lol It's actually kinda of annoying because they visibly look different than the rest of my head and people have commented on it lol so I use gel and make those pieces just as curly as the rest of my head. It's weird because in the morning when I look in the mirror my head looks dry except for those pieces. There they are looking shiny and silky and hanging scattered throughout. lol You can feel the different kinds of textures when you run your hands through my head.

Also if I comb my hair out it will look 4bish and my niece and nephew love when I do it they say "Rock the fro aunty" lol But when I wet it the hair curls up and if I don't brush or comb it. It stays curly.

Maybe some 4a's are combing there curls out and it looks 4bish to them but if they leave it alone it would prob look more 4a

I dunno I just keep trying products till I find something that works then I stick with it.
This was an interesting thread though......

 

[ceecy29]

The bolded part of the above statement brought me close to tears! The rest of it, especially if written by descendants of slaves (i.e. folks from the U.S., Caribbean, and/or South America) is pretty typical ... But it's SOOO disturbing to me that this SAME discourse is going on in AFRICA where dark skin and nappy hair is INDIGENOUS/ORIGINATES! If there were any other place on EARTH that black folk should be able to "let their hair down" and/or accept their natural selves, it SHOULD be there! A SAD testimony IMHO...What are we gonna do yall? erplexed

Please believe it happens. Worse than you can imagine. I don't know, I think East/South Africans are much more accepting of natural hair (then again, I have a Kenyan friend who says natural hair was never an option). But down in the West (ok maybe I should speak for Nigeria where I'm from) you hear all sorts of ridiculous comments being made. From "oh! You're not going to find a husband to marry you" to "you better put that weave back in" LOL!!! And I guess that's why it seems uncommon, people are busy trying to do stuff to hide that oh-so-bad 4b hair. I don't know what we'll have to do about it. But hopefully with loads of ladies going natural and accepting their hair, the mindset should change. It's going to take a while though.

Anyhoo...I just wanted to say I think DesiRae is a 4b. And the only reason some people don't agree is because there are so many subcategories within the 4b category and 4b haor can act different depending on what you give it e.g moisture. Sometimes my hair shocks me.

Here are some pics of my 4b hair:

1st one: Freshly washed airdried in twists to stretch.
2nd one: Just done wash and deep conditioning. No products
3rd one: Yep! That's gel on the edge. Twist out from really tiny twists put in a puff.

 

[Crackers Phinn]

A hun'ned plus entries and some naturals are even leaving the thread more confused than when they came in.

If even the most basic questions about natural hair (before you actually even get into caring for it) are so hard to asnwer, how then do folks expect people to leave a comfort zone (relaxing) and jump head first (pun intended) into all this confusion?

Just an observation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I always claimed 4a/b because my hair without product looked 4b to me with a couple of 4a coils randomly distributed through my head.

However once some product hit my head, it waved up and made other folks confused. Even with waves, there's no pattern because the 4b is in there making this face

 

[Essensual]

When I first BCed, I thought that I was a 4b. But 7 months later I'm sure that it's 4 a/b. The curls in the front and at the nape are looser and they become tighter and tangle a little more in the crown and on the sides.

Ditto

 

[princessnad]

lol okaaayyyy.....not sure why you asked me in the first place then but okay lol

I think naturallycurly's hair type definitions are pretty straightforward and easy to understand.

I you're determined to call yourself a 4b then hey, *shrugs* I don't understand why people get so defensive about a hair identification system but hey it is what it islol

But even on that website, the pic they have as an example of 4b has coils in it

sooo... not that simple.


To the question about why people claim 4b when they are not. I honestly think that people are trying to avoid people giving them the side eye and calling them "uppity" for claiming "better" hair than they have. So when in doubt, claim the higher number. Sad but I think it's true.

 

[Rain20]

Unhealthy hair of any type is unattractive. Now that there is so much info available about hair care for any hair type and tutorials for styling, maybe some these typing issues will become a thing of the past.

But the knife cuts both ways. I've seen some 4bs post with some venom against type 3s.

Subconsciously on hairboards, I think hair typing is turning into more than a tool to help decide what products might be best for your hair. Before I joined, I never really thought about hair types.

 

[virtuenow]

Well, I dare someone to post a close up picture of this so called "zig-zag" sharp angle hair. I question whether this texture actually exists. I have never seen anyone post an example of this type- and I don't believe hair grows out of the head at sharp angles.

Andre needs to reexamine this 4b category and throw the very tightly coiled people in there where they belong. From my researched of the whole issue- hair gets its shape from the hair follicle. Under a scientific view, I cannot locate anywhere a report of a follicle that produces hair that throws out "z's".

**Someone please post a close up picture of their "z" shaped hair (like Mwedzi's siggy picture; or Nonies closeups). Then we can settle this for once and for all.

 

[anon123]

Well, I dare someone to post a close up picture of this so called "zig-zag" sharp angle hair. I question whether this texture actually exists. I have never seen anyone post an example of this type- and I don't believe hair grows out of the head at sharp angles.

Andre needs to reexamine this 4b category and throw the very tightly coiled people in there where they belong. From my researched of the whole issue- hair gets its shape from the hair follicle. Under a scientific view, I cannot locate anywhere a report of a follicle that produces hair that throws out "z's".

**Someone please post a close up picture of their "z" shaped hair (like Mwedzi's siggy picture; or Nonies closeups). Then we can settle this for once and for all.

It may not grow out as a 'z', but through manipulation may end up like that. This is a closeup of my hair after conditioning and rinsing a couple of times, gently finger detangling, and then allowing to shrink up:

The thing I marked 'z' may not be a perfect 'z', but it definitely looks like more of a 'z' than an 's' or an 'o', at least at that angle.

As for curls, even though I think my hair clumps into curls, for the average day to day life of a 4b, that's just not what you see. As Nonie said, we have to keep manipulating our hair to separate the strands or they will lock. If they lock and tangle, they don't look like curls then either. So the only time you really see them is if somebody does some mild shingling under just the right conditions and does an extreme closeup of the hair. In everyday life, 4b hair looks like cotton.

 

[Priss Pot]

OT: Mwedzi, your hair in your avi is so pretty.

ETA: I don't think that 4b hair is uncommon. Black women have a variety of textures, so neither of the 4b, 4a, 3c+ are uncommon, IMO.

 

[that_1_grrrl]

See, that is where the confusion comes in for me. I used to think I was 4a because a have an "s" curl pattern. Then, I saw other people claiming "s" had a larger curl than I did. So, I started claiming 4b, but others kept saying their 4b hair never has a curl pattern.

So, I usually claim 4a/b because I really have no idea.

i think that people misunderstand the 4b hair type. As soon as they see really small curls, they say 4b. It's pretty simple 4a = smallest range of curls whether fine, medium or coarse and 4b= zigzag, no curl "cnapp" type hair. To be very honest, I rarely see people with this hair type. Almost everyone I see who claims 4b, is usually a much looser hair type and people kinda assume that coarse = 4b.

 

[Nonie]

Mwedzi, that's the Z that people talk about? Y'all are too much. One funnily bent curl that forms a sharp bent is what determines a hair type? So does this kid also have a Z on that little lock that hangs over her face? It looks pretty sharp to me:

And I'm pretty sure there are such Z's in this lady's hair too:

I bet you somewhere on this earth there is a phone coil with a sharp bent in it.

If we will be such nitpickers and determine the texture of hair from one awkward bend on a few strands when the majority have curls , then we might as well admit that JustKiya is Type 1. I saw straight sections in her hair in a pic she posted recently, so there!

ETA: As Mwedzi said, the Z's come from manipulation, just like CNapp look comes from manipulation. Does manipulation determine the true nature of a texture? No. Straight hair can get wavy from manipulation but we won't start calling it Type 2 wavy coz missy wore a braid on wet hair and is now sporting waves. Her true texture is straight. She has waves from manipulation.

 

[laurend]

Regarding the bold, because then when they post a thread about their "4b" hair it makes them feel good when everyone runs in, oohs and aaahs over their obvious curls, and tells them they're actually a type 3 and have good hair.

I don't totally agree with that statement. I think a few might do this on purpose but there are a lot who really think that their hair is kinky coily. I have been natural for a long time and I'm a lot older than most of the people on this board. I've met a lot of AA women in my profession and have been able to speak to them one on one about their hair over the years. I've had AA women ask me about my hair and they state they need a relaxer because their hair is kinky coily but upon close up examination, is see their hair is in the 3 range. We have been conditioned in this country to think that kinky coily is bad and to slap a relaxer on it even 3 ranged hair. I have a client right now who says I need a relaxer but OMG her hair is probably 3a if that. I told her "grow out your relaxer because your thyroid diease if thinning your hair" and her response " I can't my hair is too nappy for that". Now, I'm trying to get her to stretch out her relaxers to doing it twice a year and really that's all she needs.

 

[anon123]

Mwedzi, that's the Z that people talk about? Y'all are too much. One funnily bent curl that forms a sharp bent is what determines a hair type?
I bet you somewhere on this earth there is a phone coil with a sharp bent in it.

ETA: As Mwedzi said, the Z's come from manipulation, just like CNapp look comes from manipulation. Does manipulation determine the true nature of a texture? No. Straight hair can get wavy from manipulation but we won't start calling it Type 2 wavy coz missy wore a braid on wet hair and is now sporting waves. Her true texture is straight. She has waves from manipulation.

I didn't say in that post that my hair type was 'z'. I was just showing a 'z'. And to be fair, there are probably as many z's in there as o's. There are more 5's there than anything else.

The thing is, I will not see perfect coils without manipulation, either. I need manipulation to get those, too. If I don't manipulate, it will just tangle in a jumble and lock and mat up. I have to do a version of shingling to get anything resembling a perfect coil. So how do we decide that one form of manipulation is your true hair, but another form isn't? My hair growing in perfect coils is more theoretical than real life.

 

[Nonie]

But even on that website, the pic they have as an example of 4b has coils in it

sooo... not that simple.


To the question about why people claim 4b when they are not. I honestly think that people are trying to avoid people giving them the side eye and calling them "uppity" for claiming "better" hair than they have. So when in doubt, claim the higher number. Sad but I think it's true.

Not just that, the definitions they give are my definition of 4B as I explained in this post.

Who's claiming 4B that isn't? I am sorry I didn't read the whole thread so might've missed it but so far the only person I found who may not be 4B wasn't insisting she was 4B. It seemed she just didn't know and immediately accepted she might be a 3. So I dunno where these people y'all seeing who are insisting they are 4B when they aren't are. I think it's that definition of "no definition" that throws people off. Or the assumption that 4B hair is frizzy so the minute a 3C/4A person has dry frizzy hair she assumes she's 4B. IMO 4A/B and 4B are so similar that it can be easy to mistake them. Likewise 4A and 4A/B are so similar that again the confusion can be there. So if a 4A/B person chooses to call herself 4A or 4B, I don't think it's that big of a deal. *shrug*

As for claiming a lower spot so you can be lifted higher, interesting point. So if it is, then oh well. Humility is a noble thing. But isn't it ironic how not too long I understand "everyone" wanted to be type 3 and claimed it coz it was cool and now it seems "everyone" wants to be 4B? I don't know why there seems to be a wonder for the explosion of 4B's. It seems so obvious to me that if the majority of my little country had hair like me and the majority of natural Africans and blacks I met in the UK had hair like mine, that most likely the majority of us have 4B hair. I suppose it might be different in this mixing bowl but it's so not odd to me to see many of us. Methinks people are just now being honest. Before they didn't want to be called nappy. Now on learning that being nappy doesn't mean having unkempt hair and seeing that nappy hair does grow long, they are happy to stand up and be counted.

 

[loved]

No. There are plenty of folks with the Evans' family (James, Florida, Michael, JJ) hair type. I am one of them.