guess this hair type.....BEWARE, serious slobbing may occur

[serendipity]

Maybe braid trained discussion came up after this post, where someone says Lhdc's hair is braid trained:
http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?p=13464905&highlight=braid+trained#post13464905


serendipity What do you mean by coarseness here, that makes hair puffy? Do you mean strand diameter? I'm thinking not because many straight haired Asians have thick strands. Do you mean raised cuticles? Or . .. .?

I guess that's a general question to people saying that people are typing her hair based on texture rather than curl size. Not that I disagree, just that I don't understand. What is "texture"? Is it the shape of the strand (round vs. flat ribbon) or is it raised cuticles or strand diameter or something else? What gives "afro texture" if not curl size?

Mwedzi,I define coarseness as the diameter and porosity of the hair strand. Coarse hair tends to have thick strands similar to sewing thread. The cuticles in coarse hair will be more raised resulting in a rougher surface and less shine. I define texture as both the strand shape i.e wavy,curly,kinky and the strand thickness. Both of these factors will affect the way the hair feels and texture is about feel.

Well, I find it stupid. Other charts I have seen look totally different, which further emphasizes my point that hair typing (using this system) is bunk. How can various representations of that same system look totally different? It's extremely inconsistent. It seems that people are just pulling evidence they can find that supports their own beliefs.

And there is nothing wrong with being a 2c/3b/c - I am baffled as to how people keep concluding that there is something "wrong" with being a certain hair type just because someone does not think that they are. Why would there be anything wrong with being ANY hair type? It's not that serious. I wouldn't disagree with my hair being a majority of 3c, but like I've said, I don't know my hair type and I don't care - I have been called a 3c, 3c/4a, 4a, or just a type 4. If people find it misleading for me to say that I am a type 4 (which I said for the sake of this convo since at the beginning someone noted my tight curls), please let me know and I'll kindly remove myself from that category.

When people ask me what hair type I am, I usually say a mix of fractal and corkscrew curls, which I can say with confidence when I look at my hair, unlike Andre's system, where I am always reluctant to say I'm a certain type because people automatically associate a number of performance characteristics to hair that really don't have anything to do with type, and the last thing I want to do make people think that our hair is supposed to act/look the same, when it could be completely different. This is very important to me when people read my blog and ask me questions, especially when they have just bc'ed. I always make a point to tell them that it's best to not compare their hair to others and everyone's hair is different.

For instance, I remember one time Nonie said that 3c hair cannot make a microphone afro, when I certainly have no issues blowing my hair out into a microphone fro. So which is it? I just find the entire thing incredibly confusing.

Ellepixie your hair looks like 3c to me. Your coils look bigger than a 4a in my opinion.I see how many are confused because Andre Walker's original classification has been modified so much that the interpretations are inconsistent. The chart I posted is pretty much consistent with Andre's book which I read some years ago.

@Poohbear My hair is NOT 4A/B. My hair is 100% 4B just like @Foxglove's hair. I don't have any A in it. I just have a good camera that takes great closeups otherwise my curls are too tiny to be 4A anything. Also I can't get a WNG at all the way 4A's and maybe 4A/B's can. (I've always said I don't know what 4A/B is but I do know my hair is 4B. I've no doubt about that.)

I explained how I came to the conclusion that HairCrush's hair is 3C/4A. Her hair behaves the way I see 3C/4A hair behave. I don't know how to else to explain this except exactly as I did in the post I stated this. And if you look at the characteristics of other 3C/4A-ers (not the ones jumping on the new fashion trend but the ones who are without a doubt 3C/4A--also mentioned in my post), you will see how similar their hair is. The one difference you may notice is HairCrush's hair hangs more, and I also explained why I believe that is.

My post about my hair that you quoted when you asked the above question had nothing to do with HairCrush's hair or my coming to the conclusion she's 3C/4A. LOL That post you quoted was responding to the statement that 4B hair is zigzag and that 4C is made of tiny coils. I disagreed and was using my images to show what I mean.

Nonie, I have to disagree with you here. I have seen true 4b's with hair that just doesn't grow in any coil pattern at all,it looks kinky-wavy. I'll have to find some pics. A cousin of mine has this hair type and if you cut his hair to an inch,you won't see any coil even with a microscope,it just looks like very kinky waves,when it gets longer it just looks nappy-straight.
In my opinion you are a 4a maybe with a little 4b in there. The difference between 4a and 4b is not coil size at all-it's the strand pattern. 4b strands are waves that are so tight that they look like zig zags.I can't stretch out my 4a hair to imitate that look. Nonie,it seems you're classifying your hair as a 4b because your coils are very small. Within this hair classification system, there is a range of curl sizes for each type. You can have a 3b with say a 1 inch diameter and another with a 0.75 inch diameter,they'd still be in the same category. Your coils may be smaller than say a pencil head,but the fact that you have that coil pattern qualifies you for the 4a category imo.

@Poohbear I'm with EllePixie on this. Have you ever seen anyone's hair grow out of their head looking zigzag? Do have pics, coz unless someone has some weird mutation going on in their head, I believe hair follicles produce three pattern: straight, wavy and curly. A follicle would have to be undergoing some spasmodic changes to be spitting out straight, oops, sharp corner bending to left, straight, oops, sharp corner bending to right...to create a hair strand that has a zigzag pattern. And why would this not start at child birth? I am yet to see babies whose hair has never been braided look zigzaggy...especially when really short. And even after you shave it off, it comes in in cute coils. So that chart makes so sense whatsoever.

That's like saying that Muslim women have brown patterns on their hands and creating a chart for that. And if one didn't know better, that chart would be telling us they are born like that, it is part and parcel of who they are. But it isn't. Their hands are like that because they decorate them with henna. I work with Muslim women who don't have henna on their hands so that chart would exclude them. In short, zigzag hair happens because we did something to our natural pattern. It isn't a characteristic of any hair type, but is a result of manipulation.

Nonie, I have to disagree with you here. Let's face it babies are rarely born with their true hair texture much to the dismay of many a black mother who has waited in angst hoping for that hair to stay 'good'. The hair rarely grows out in true form. Hair follicles can come straight, wavy or curly but again you are not accounting for the range that exists within these categories.
Wavy follicles can produce loose(type 2) or tight (type 4b) waves. Curly follicles can produce anything from type 3a to 4a.

I cannot get a microphone afro from brushing combing or blowdrying....blowdrying would have my hair straight
you can get a afro because your texture allows this as i said before people dont believe 3 CAN have any kind of texture to it similar to a 4

if your hair is not curly/silky/fine without product then your 4 now i really dont think im crazy when i say your curls look GIGANTIC when compared to say poohbear so kindly remove yourself from the 4 group sorry i couldnt help it

Agreed.The ability to achieve a microphone afro is not a criteria I use to determine hair type. I'm a 70's movie fan and I've seen a fair few 3b/c's create banging afros. If the hair is dense enough, type 3's can get that afro look.

 

[greenandchic]

The ability to achieve a microphone afro is not a criteria I use to determine hair type. I'm 70's movie fan and I've seen a fair few 3b/c's create banging afros. If the hair is dense and coarse enough, type 3's can get that afro look.

Could it be that some of the 3b's used hairspray to get that look - especially on a movie set?

 

[serendipity]

Could it be that some of the 3b's used hairspray to get that look - especially on a movie set?

Possibly. But either way the look is achievable right? No amount of hair spray can make a type 1 or 2 produce an afro halo. I know 3b/c's in real life who can get the look with little effort.

 

[Amoreofcurls]

Ya'll are doing the most....

 

[Junebug D]

Nonie, I have to disagree with you here. I have seen true 4b's with hair that just doesn't grow in any coil pattern at all,it looks kinky-wavy. I'll have to find some pics. A cousin of mine has this hair type and if you cut his hair to an inch,you won't see any coil even with a microscope,it just looks like very kinky waves,when it gets longer it just looks nappy-straight..

serendipity, did you see anything like it in the 4b Picture thread?

 

[ladybettle]

I don't know what her hair type is, but it is beaauutifulll!!!

 

[serendipity]

serendipity, did you see anything like it in the 4b Picture thread?

Afrokink on page 2 is a good example in that thread.

 

[EllePixie]

serendipity Yea I guess I got kicked out of the 4-Club. *Watches cookie crumble*

 

[serendipity]

serendipity Yea I guess I got kicked out of the 4-Club. *Watches cookie crumble*

aw shuks.Hope the 3's take you back since you've betrayed them for so long

 

[SheenaVee]

I agree with @Nonie on the 4b thing. 4b is just teeny tiny curls. Are you telling me @Mwezdi's a 4a too now?
I really hope she doesn't mind but I saw this pic in the 4b thread and copied the image link. It's a close up of her hair texture with conditioner in it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v194/mwedzi/Defining/closeup_2.jpg

 

[candycotton]

I agree with @Nonie on the 4b thing. 4b is just teeny tiny curls. Are you telling me @Mwezdi's a 4a too now?
I really hope she doesn't mind but I saw this pic in the 4b thread and copied the image link. It's a close up of her hair texture with conditioner in it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v194/mwedzi/Defining/closeup_2.jpg

That looks 4A to me or maybe I just dont know the difference between 4A and 4B

 

[Junebug D]

Afrokink on page 2 is a good example in that thread.

I've seen hair like that before, only kinkier. There's one head in particular I remember from my days on NP, her hair was so fascinating to me. (I wish I could remember her screen name, but I don't). It looked spongy to the touch. I saw someone else on the bus one day with hair like this; her hair was in some old braids, so I just caught the new growth around the back and sides of her head. It immediately caught my attention because it's so rare to see. I do wonder if this is a different hair type altogether or if it is just a factor like porosity that gives it that spongy look.

 

[DDTexlaxed]

Not this again! I choose none of the above. I vote type BEAUTIFUL. All textures are beautiful to me. can we seriously stop posting the same thread with a different title?

 

[SheenaVee]

That looks 4A to me or maybe I just dont know the difference between 4A and 4B

@candycotton

The thing is, people think 4b doesn't have coils/curls so whenever they see curls they think, oh, that can't be 4b.
4b is teeny tiny curls. Like Nonie said, from afar you can't see em coz they're so small, that's probably why people think they aren't curls.
The pic I posted of mwezdi's hair is a really close up pic. (check out her fingers in the pic, next to her hair to get an idea of how small the curls are) From afar, you probably wouldn't have seen that those curls were there.
With 4a hair, you can see the curls from quite a distance coz they're larger.

 

[Nonie]

serendipity, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Unless you can show me someone's whose hair grows in random shapes, I will continue to insist manipulation is what causes that randomness.

Funny you use AfroKink as an example of the random pattern, and yet she's my example of what 4B is: a bunch of tiny coils all uniform throughout her head. Even she will tell you her hair is made of coils. I linked to a post where she said exactly that.

So forget babies. Show me a man or woman whose hair comes out of their scalp without a uniform pattern and I will agree that you're onto something. And if you wanna say talk about hair coming in small waves, wouldn't that be type 2C...after all, don't the letters from A to C show a diminishing in size? And why not call it waves? What's the zigzag definition? That to me has corners not bends. Clearly the patterns 1, 2, 3, 4 have always represented, straight, wavy, curly, kinky respectively. And kinky means tight coils. Not waves, but coils or curls that are very tiny and tight. So unless y'all are inventing some new chart, then there's no such thing as zigzag pattern that grows out of someone's head. I've been on this forum since 2003 and I'm yet to see it, not to mention I'm fascinated by hair and knowledge in general and in all my research I've never seen anything to support that rumor.

Pics speak a thousand words...so show me evidence of hair growing from a bald head that isn't coming in as straight, wavy and curly (<--meaning having curves that are uniform) and I will change my tune. I mean, I stand corrected on type 3C not being able to make afros. In fact, I even learned that 3B/3C can make an afro! So trust me, I'm open to learning something new as long as it's clearly explained/shown to me.

 

[Kurlee]

@Kurlee Maybe I'm just uber familiar with fine hair than coarse...plus your hair is long. I also think if we let our hair drip dry, the weight of the water will make it hang and if it's coarse then it will even hang more. But towel drying and then leaving it to dry fully w/o touching it and then applying S Curl and combing out methinks would many any type 4 into a microphone afro. I bet my bottom dollar I could make your hair into an afro, a microphone afro at that.

ETA...now if your hair were much longer...butt and beyond, the microphone might look a bit drunk.

my hurr stopped doing that once it was 8 inches. I have a small section in my crown (width of a finger) that was burned with the flat iron by a stylist and right now it reaches my nape from the middle of my head when stretched. It is half that length when shrunken, but even at that short length, it hangs down.. Towel dry?! Blasphemy. Towels don't touch my head and leaving my hair to dry with nothing can we say breakage, tangles and hair curling around itself in random ways?! My hair would DIE a quick death and be SL in a few months if I did those things to it.

 

[Nonie]

In my opinion you are a 4a maybe with a little 4b in there. The difference between 4a and 4b is not coil size at all-it's the strand pattern. 4b strands are waves that are so tight that they look like zig zags.I can't stretch out my 4a hair to imitate that look. Nonie,it seems you're classifying your hair as a 4b because your coils are very small. Within this hair classification system, there is a range of curl sizes for each type. You can have a 3b with say a 1 inch diameter and another with a 0.75 inch diameter,they'd still be in the same category. Your coils may be smaller than say a pencil head,but the fact that you have that coil pattern qualifies you for the 4a category imo.

So are you telling all of us in the "Insert 4B Hair Pics" who have 4B hair that is made of coils are wrong about our own hair? BTW, I don't have a mixture of strands. All my strands are the same size so there's no 4A mixed with 4B. It's all 4B.

And so what in your opinion differentiates 4A from 3C...if curl pattern can vary so within a letter? To me it's not that complicated, and I think a few people are on the same page as me. 3A are the biggest coils, 4B the tiniest coils.

3A curls are huge and flop:

3B has smaller curls than 3A but bigger than 3C and looks like this:

3C hair looks like this (notice the much smaller curl pattern):

4A looks like this:

And 4B looks like this:

*Nonie loses her cool and shrieks with pure glee then just plain gets out of order*
Love (nay, LURVE) me some Bernie Mac afro The day I rock this do, I'ma be getting it on a few T-shirts. That's pure HOTNESS!!! :notworthy

(Yeah, yeah, I know I made some "current trend followers" who prefer the chunky 'fro gag, but that to me is hotter-than-hell FIYAH!!!!)

 

[hair4romheaven]

Oh dear...

 

[empressri]

Aha! So there y'all have it those of you whose hair was incapable of creating a puff. Leave out the glop and keep things simple.

BTW wavezncurlz, there was a time folks were expressing frustration at not being able to create a perfect afro. IIRC, they were mostly type 4 folks, and I remember someone getting a bit bugged and asking what was so hard about it. I tried to suggest a change in the comb being used...and even I was at a loss on why they were having such difficulty. I remember being asked how my mom could get her afro so round. All she did was comb it and the strands just curled back into themselves and a microphone afro resulted. It's so straightforward to me in my head when it comes to 4B hair, that I honestly wished I could have a go at their heads.

Anyway, I think you nail it when you say "things were simple" when afros were the norm. We fail when we try to complicate matters--and that seems to apply to a lot of things in life, actually.

Nonie SO had that perfect afro when he was younger lol. i asked him what did he do, and he told me the barber would pick it out and trim (using clippers? scissors?) into a round shape also. he's old school and say that was an afro, not what let's say maxwell's hair used to be like lol.

 

[Nonie]

empressri, your SO and I are so >>here<<. Maybe we were separated at birth. Ask him what his African name is...and which village he hails from. (I kid ) But yep, he speaks my language...so we must be related.

 

[danniegirl]

So are you telling all of us in the "Insert 4B Hair Pics" who have 4B hair that is made of coils are wrong about our own hair? BTW, I don't have a mixture of strands. All my strands are the same size so there's no 4A mixed with 4B. It's all 4B.

And so what in your opinion differentiates 4A from 3C...if curl pattern can vary so within a letter? To me it's not that complicated, and I think a few people are on the same page as me. 3A are the biggest coils, 4B the tiniest coils.

3A curls are huge and flop:

3B has smaller curls than 3A but bigger than 3C and looks like this:

3C hair looks like this (notice the much smaller curl pattern):

4A looks like this:

And 4B looks like this:

*Nonie loses her cool and shrieks with pure glee then just plain gets out of order*
Love (nay, LURVE) me some Bernie Mac afro The day I rock this do, I'ma be getting it on a few T-shirts. That's pure HOTNESS!!! :notworthy

(Yeah, yeah, I know I made some "current trend followers" who prefer the chunky 'fro gag, but that to me is hotter-than-hell FIYAH!!!!)

ok so now we are typing styled hair with lord knows what type of product in it i wish i could find the flat lined smiley

 

[candycotton]

Nonie the 4B pics of Bernie Mac and the praying men are both very tightly coiled, but what about hair with no definite curl pattern, but a loose, kinky wave? Does 4B hair have to be tightly coiled?

 

[Nonie]

ok so now we are typing styled hair with lord knows what type of product in it i wish i could find the flat lined smiley

Actually danniegirl, I didn't say that's what their natural hair looks like. I don't know for sure, but I was trying to show what I believe that type of hair looks like. IF you know examples of people with hair that looks like that naturally, then feel free to post them in lieu of mine. Those pics were to show examples of what that hair type might look like.

I don't know who you're referring to...but in case you haven't been following, naked bare hair doesn't tell the full story. Rather seeing hair worn different ways even with and without product can give a better picture of what the hair is. And since type has to do with curl size, what has product got to do with the price of eggs? If you like, you can look for more photos of the people I used and see their hair in other states. Drew Barrymore's hair has had large curls from when she was a kid in FireStarter so it's safe to assume her naturel hair has large curls. Bette Midler's hair has also looked the same for as long as I've known of her so I assumed that's her natural hair. Nicole Kidman's curly hair is what other members on the forum said was her natural hair--not the loose wavy/curly hair she's been seen with in later years. Jada Pinkett's hair is brushed out but it's another image of what 3C hair can look like but feel free to look for more of her hair and you'll see that it looks like Rachel True's hair.

As we've said over and over again, type is not determined by just naked unmanipulated hair...but by a bunch of images of the hair in its various forms. The two images of 4A for example show a WNG and a combed brushed out 4A do. The size of the coils is what makes it 4A not the style it's worn in. I tried to show different images to give an idea of perhaps how those styles could look manipulated because that's how you're bound to see them in public anyway. I even threw in an uncombed 4B hair so you'd see the little circles it seperates into. And BTW, some people with those hair types have confirmed I ain't mad about how their hair can look so you can think whatever you want to think.

Good effin grief, y'all make something so simple and straightforward so complicated with your nitpicking. I forget who it is who said that there's no need for all these explanations because you can tell the type of hair just by looking at it. Too right. I only go through all this coz I actually believe there are people interested in seeing my point of view, not so that I can keep going back and forth over the same BS. Y'all continue believing what you want to believe about your hair, about my hair, about Haircrush's hair, in fact, about everyone's hair; after all, aren't we all 3C/4A this year? So yeah, I'm up the chart too this year. Maybe that's why I said Haircrush is that too. Gotta stick to the script.

As for those who've PMed me to thank me for my sharing and for whatever info they've gleaned from my ramblings in this thread and others like it, you're welcome again.

Haircrush your hair rocks. Call it whatever you will and whip it all you want. After all, it doesn't matter what any of you think about yourselves, there's still someone out there who thinks you're full of sh**, so what the *** does it matter?

If anyone mentions me in a typing thread, please do not expect a response from me. I think I've shared all I know ad nauseum so refer to my posts and hopefully you'll get whatever you'll be mentioning me for there. wavezncurlz, EllePixie, thank you so much for the new info you've given me about type 3 hair and afros. I was beside myself with excitement to see the evidence of afros in their full glory in hair I never expected to do that. serendipity, if you do ever post photos of zigzag hair growing out of the scalp (You really don't have to but should you), know I'll take note. To everyone else who might address me in a typing thread and get ignored, I apologize in advance. I totally get why folks use this smiley now.

 

[Nonie]

Nonie the 4B pics of Bernie Mac and the praying men are both very tightly coiled, but what about hair with no definite curl pattern, but a loose, kinky wave? Does 4B hair have to be tightly coiled?

candycotton, I just noticed your question and since it was posted earlier, I will respond.

4B hair grows naturally with a definite pattern of tight coils. Due to manipulation as it grows longer, it usually exists without a definite pattern. But that's not a permanent state. If one's using products like Shea Butter which IMO work like grease, they can seem to "freeze" that state so the hair always looks like this:

That's how my hair looks most of the time because I cannot afford to let it curl back into coils if I plan on enjoying my hair. Tangles would become unbearable...and you'll find that is true of everyone who understands 4B hair. It must be kept stretched if it is to be bearable. And because of that, it looks like this (shrunken and stretched):

And like this:

Sorry I haven't got the energy to go over all this again, but if you look at all discussions on 4C, CNapp, 4B hair, you may see more of my rambles on this.

 

[BrownSkin2]

Mwezdi's hair doesn't look like defined coils to me. She has zig zags along her strands...

I agree with @Nonie on the 4b thing. 4b is just teeny tiny curls. Are you telling me @Mwezdi's a 4a too now?
I really hope she doesn't mind but I saw this pic in the 4b thread and copied the image link. It's a close up of her hair texture with conditioner in it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v194/mwedzi/Defining/closeup_2.jpg

 

[SheenaVee]

Mwezdi's hair doesn't look like defined coils to me. She has zig zags along her strands...

BrownSkin2

Really? They clearly look like coils to me...

You can only see one side of them so they look like zig zags but they are coiling around. You know, like a spring? Lay it flat on the ground and look at it from on top and it looks like zig zags, but it coils around. If she had held up one of those coils in the pic you would see it but she didn't.

Oh gawd, I don't have the energy to continue discussing this, especially when Nonie just basically explained ALL of it. Lol. We're just going round and round in circles. Refer to her posts she explains it better.

 

[Shay72]

I really do think that some people believe that one hair type is better than another - I have seen people say things along the lines of, "Well I don't need [insert curl definer here] to have curls..." almost implying that if you use gel/curl cremes your hair is still not good enough.

This is funny to me. I'm a pretty concrete person. I read this as the individual is stating a fact rather than implying their hair is better .

I think her hair is 4B.

 

[Poohbear]

Very cute wavezncurlz. Your hair doesn't look as silky in your younger pics as it does now in pics. Is it because of product or change in texture as you got older?

type 3 folks wore afros all the time back in the day.

I'm the one with the big afro puff in the back. My texture is the same. Mom just didn't use products to define the puff. We picked those curls out back then.

My mom and me in the 70's. Mom has baby fine hair.

 

[Cherokee-n-Black]

type 3 folks wore afros all the time back in the day.

I'm the one with the big afro puff in the back. My texture is the same. Mom just didn't use products to define the puff. We picked those curls out back then.

My mom and me in the 70's. Mom has baby fine hair.

Mom now wears hair in buns and ponytails

These are too cute! That puff is bigger than yo' whole head!!! Yes, I too was a child of the 70's, there was no curl definition going on back then! DH and I honeymooned in Fiji, and a lot of the women there are mixed with some form of APA or other race, (Indian, maybe? Although I hear they don't get along). In any event, the non-Indian Fijians rock the afro hard! Some seem to have 4-type hair, but some have 3-ish hair and the 'fro's are still doing their thang! I love that about the women there.

 

[wavezncurlz]

Very cute @wavezncurlz. Your hair doesn't look as silky in your younger pics as it does now in pics. Is it because of product or change in texture as you got older?

It's the products we used - not moisturizing or curl defining. My hair was uber thick then too. I has thinned out. My edges were always smooth and "silky" but we picked out the curls for afros.

I don't pick it out like we did then, my hair is thinner, and I use better products. I wouldn't do that today because I had a lot of tangles and combing my hair hurt.

This is my current version of an afro puff (I don't have one with no product sorry)

But I can do the same thing with my 5 year old who is my hair twin. Her texture looks silky with product but can be poofy too. Her puff can go from this:

to this when picked out: