TJ Nourish Spa as a DC?

[davisbr88]

Hi, ladies:
I tried Nourish Spa once on dirty hair as a shampoo replacement and hated it, and then tried it again on clean hair and my hair loved it and continued to love it til I used the entire bottle. I am thinking of buying it again to use as an instant conditioner after shampooing (or a co-wash if I don't have too much buildiup) and know that lots of people use it this way. However, I have read that a few people also use it as a DC. Can it be considered a DC since I thought I read that only conditioners that specify that it should be left on for a certain amount of time, or used with heat, or with a plastic cap are considered DCs. Can someone clarify? I really don't know what ingredients make a conditioner a DC and which cause it not to qualify as such.

Ingredients:
Purified water, organic rosemary oil, organic valencia orange citrus, organic mango, organic lemongrass, organic ginko biloba, organic echinacea, organic willow bark, organic sea kelp, organic chamomile flower, organic textured soy protein, organic lavender, organic grapefruit citrus, Tocopherol (Vit E), Acetamide MEA, Cetyl Alcohol, Citric Acid, Methylparaben, propylparaben, botanical fragrance

 

[virtuenow]

Can someone break down what these ingredients are and what they do. It sure looks like essential oils are in the top. Where is the carrier oil/fatty acid? Well I guess mango-- if its mango butter-- is a fatty acid...I just don't understand these ingredients.

Here is a breakdown someone did on this deep conditioner, Aubrey Organics GPB (ao gpb), that i am interested in. I found it to be helpful-- and want breakdowns on more conditioners. Right now I'm using Trader Joe's Nourish Spa, but thinking of changing over to something else-- if I can find something effective, that is.

Excerpt from http://livecurlylivefree.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=proteins&action=print&thread=44:

"Breaking down the ingredients in Aubrey Organics GPB Conditioner:

Coconut Fatty Acid Cream Base - cetyl alcohol (fatty alcohol)
Organic Aloe Vera - plant extract
Wheat Germ Oil - carrier oil with high protein content
Lactalbumin - milk protein
Organic Rosemary Oil - essential oil
Organic Sage Oil - essential oil
Horsetail Extract - herb rich in cysteine (sulfur-rich amino acid; contributes to hair structure and strength)
Coltsfoot Extract - herb with emollient properties
Nettle Extract - herb that stimulates hair roots, promote blood circulation in scalp (irritant).
Amino Acid Complex (Cysteine, Methionine) sulfur-rich amino acids
Glycoprotein (from oyster shells) - conjugated protein having a carbohydrate component
Balsam Oil - oil chemically similar to sebum
Aubrey's Preservative (Citrus Seed Extract, Vitamins A, C and E) - preservative

My initial observations:

This conditioner is extremely protein-heavy. Products with a high degree of protein often do not have the same "slip" as products with heavy emollients and can feel "rough", however, so a certain difference of feel can be normal (although "dry, matted tangles" strikes me as a tad extreme!).

Possible allergens could include either the lactalbumin or the wheat germ oil, if you are sensitive to either.

The main ingredient is cetyl alcohol, which is a fatty alcohol, an emollient and secondary emulsifier used to give emulsions more stability, body, and viscosity. Fine hair often doesn't respond well to a great deal of emollients and this is the top ingredient in the formulation. I would expect fine hair to be more limp and flyaway than feel rough and tangled with an emollient, however.

FYI, rosemary essential oil is contraindicated (meaning it should be avoided) in pregnancy, and for high blood pressure and epilepsy.

FYI, sage essential oil is contraindicated in pregnancy, and for high blood pressure and epilepsy"

 

[davisbr88]

Yeah, I really have no idea. I'm just wondering what makes a conditioner qualify as a DC, and whether or not this one does.

 

[Your Cheeziness]

I've used it both ways and my hair feels the same whether it's sat on my hair for 5 minutes or an hour. It's an effective product. I only use to cowash with now.

No matter how long I deep condition with anything, my hair retains moisture the same as it does with an instant conditioner. So, I have dc'd maybe twice in the past two months. I've been cowashing (cg method) and keeping it moving.

 

[Nonie]

I'm not sure but if I were to guess, I'd imagine that deep conditioners might have tiny molecules that penetrate hair strands which is why when left on your hair for longer with or without heat (eg AO GPB and AO HSR), they DEEP condition. My guess is regular conditioners have larger molecules and simply just coat the hair strands to make them smooth. AO GPB and AO HSR if used on wet hair work as regular conditioners and the instructions say to leave on for a short while when used this way because my guess is the idea is to just coat the hair not penetrate the strands.

So from someone who doesn't spend a lot of time looking at ingredients and who simply follows directions and reads what's on the bottle, I say DCs need time to work while regular conditioners are done working after a few minutes and I don't think leaving regulars on your hair longer makes a difference unless they are like AO GPB/HSR which can work as both a regular conditioner as well as a DC.

So in the case of TJ Nourish Spa, since it doesn't say to leave it on your hair for a long time, nor IIRC does it say anything on the bottle about deep conditioning, my guess is it won't make any difference to leave it on for long since it probably just sits on top of you hair.

 

[davisbr88]

Thanks ladies!
I was just wondering if it could serve as a dual-purpose condish, similar to AO (but my hair hates AO).

 

[Nonie]

Thanks ladies!
I was just wondering if it could serve as a dual-purpose condish, similar to AO (but my hair hates AO).

davisbr88 Really? Why do you say that? What happens and do you apply it to dry hair?

 

[davisbr88]

Nonie: I have tried that crap all kinds of ways! I always try products in every possible way I can think of before chucking them. For some reason AO just doesn't like me! I've tried WC and HSR and hated them. I haven't tried GPB but I'm tired of spending $12 on a bottle of WTF!

 

[Nonie]

@Nonie: I have tried that crap all kinds of ways! I always try products in every possible way I can think of before chucking them. For some reason AO just doesn't like me! I've tried WC and HSR and hated them. I haven't tried GPB but I'm tired of spending $12 on a bottle of WTF!

davisbr88 Maybe that's the problem. Trying it all kinds of ways. I'd just try it in the two ways suggested on the bottle only and w/o heat coz it's not mentioned on the bottle either. Have you tried that?

Sorry if my questions seems redundant, but your answer was vague. I know a lot of people like to experiment and do their own things not so much following directions, so that's what I was wondering: if you did follow the directions or if you tried to DC on wet hair or used heat, for example.

 

[davisbr88]

Nonie: Oops!
I mean that I always try the product on its own in many different ways like on dry hair, on wet hair, with heat, without heat, as an instant, as a deep, on dirty hair, on clean hair, as a leave-in, etc. I think I used over half of the bottles just trying to get them to work in some way. No such luck.

 

[Nonie]

@Nonie: Oops!
I mean that I always try the product on its own in many different ways like on dry hair, on wet hair, with heat, without heat, as an instant, as a deep, on dirty hair, on clean hair, as a leave-in, etc. I think I used over half of the bottles just trying to get them to work in some way. No such luck.

@davisbr88 My last question, exactly how did you use it as a DC and did you pre-poo? Please name the ways and I'll leave you alone.

 

[davisbr88]

@Nonie
Hmmmm... let me see....
I never pre-poo because I use sulfate-free shampoo that doesn't dry out my hair, and actually leaves it feeling nice.
I used it on dry hair under a plastic cap and turbie twist. That didn't work.
Then I used it on wet hair after a shampoo with the cap and turbie.
Then I used it after a protein treatment on wet hair with a cap and turbie.
Then I used it on both wet and dry hair, put on a cap, and sat under my steamer for about 30 minutes.
None of those ways seemed to work. My hair didn't feel any more moisturized than it did after the shampoo. I think my hair doesn't like the fatty acid base. Reading @virtuenow's post, it says that could be an issue since I have fine hair. I know you have fine hair, too, so who really knows? But it definitely doesn't work for me. I think I gave it a fair shot.

 

[Nonie]

davisbr88, thank you for responding. I am sorry it didn't work. I just wondered if you'd used it on dry hair and left it on for 15 minutes like the directions say to, and it looks like you did. I was asking because many times people put a twist in how they use products and then can't understand why they didn't work. Like I remember when people said coconut oil didn't work as a good skin moisturizer. Turned out they were applying it to damp skin instead of towel drying completely first before "moisturizing" with it. That little change made the world of difference. Or how people hate my beloved S Curl but later come to find they should have been applying it to dry hair.

I appreciate you being patient with my asking for specifics.

 

[virtuenow]

Nonie, I'm trying Gpb for the first time b/c of your recommendation in the Nexxus Emergencee thread the other day. My shipment just arrived today and can't wait to see the results. I know this Ao gpb is a deep conditioner, and the breakdown of ingredients, i believe, is a way to understand just what makes it "deep" conditinoing. So not to hijack your thread, Davisbr, but I mentioned the ao gpb for purposes of determining what makes a conditioner a deep conditioner versus a regular conditioner. Trader joes is my main conditioner right now.

 

[davisbr88]

Nonie:
It's all good! I know you were only asking because you wanted to help.

 

[Nonie]

virtuenow, I saw your breakdown but how does that explain why it's a deep conditioner? Excuse the ignorance but I don't follow.

 

[virtuenow]

I don't know, I just found that breakdown a few minutes before I posted it. I thought it would help understand what makes it a deep conditioner. I noticed that there are no fatty acids on the trader joes---well maybe far down on the ingredients list. It may be watered down or something. I have not completed my observation yet-- so I wanted u guys to help, u know, teamwork?!

 

[davisbr88]

virtuenow: Oh, I see! I was wondering why you posted that as well!
And LOL @ teamwork!!!!
Yeah, I am not sure! Like you said, maybe it is the mango butter that is the fatty acid.
In your example, I know that wheat germ oil is a ceramide and aloe penetrates well. But I don't really see anything in it that's special, if that makes sense? Like there's nothing in there that jumps out at me. Maybe it is the cetyl alcohol? A lot of other DCs I have seen have cetyl alcohol in them. TJ has the alcohol low down on the list.

 

[virtuenow]

davisbr88 I see water is the first ingredient on alot of the regular conditioners. I haven't studied any other deep conditioners. In fact, I think this ao gpb is the first real deep conditioner I hv bought. I use every conditioner as a deep conditioner, but they usually do nothing for my hair. I noticed the gpb is not watered down like most conditioners, no water, only very strong ingredients at the top of the list (that are not watered down). But back to the TJ, the mango does not say butter, so it must be some sort of mango extract (?). I don't see anything special as far as deep conditioning goes in the TJ ingredients. Like u said, cetyl alcohol is the last active ingredient before the ph & preservatives.

 

[Nonie]

I don't think it's the cetyl alcohol because I notice cetyl alcohol is in a lot of conditioners that aren't deep conditioners. Examples: Humectress Ultimate Moisturizing, Suave conditioners...and it is basically an emulsifyer meaning it bind two products that don't normally mix like oil and water together.

 

[davisbr88]

@virtuenow and @Nonie:
I don't think it's the water, since the Bee Mine and Silk Elements DCs I have list water as the first ingredient as well.
Lol... this is kinda fun. Name that ingredient!

ETA: You might be right, virtuenow. Both of these DCs contain carrier oils while TJ doesn't. Do you all think that's the key? I've noticed that many people claim that their hair responds to the steamer best when used with oils. If oil is all it takes, can't I just add my own (I already know Nonie might not agree because the chemists who made it know the appropriate ratios)?

 

[virtuenow]

Nonie davisbr88 : yes, I'm having fun too! Nonie, I think u proved my point. Both of those conditioners you listed all have water as the first ingredient. I have used nexxus for years, and it seems pretty watered down. And davisbr, now that you threw two new conditioners in the mix, I'm off to study those ingredients. Thanks for the assignment (team)! I'll be back w/my calculations and results

 

[davisbr88]

Nonie virtuenow: I added an ETA to post #21!

 

[Nonie]

virtuenow, interesting the absence of water in GPB as the first ingredient.

In another discussion similar to this, we did suspect concentration had something to do with with why products are deep conditioners. GPB works as a deep conditioner only when hair isn't wet, so you may be onto something.

I looked at another product I always thought was a deep conditioning treatment because when it was first used on me, it was w/ heat under a dryer for longer than 5 minutes: Aveda Damage Remedy Restructuring Treatment

Surprisingly, the directions don't say to leave it in your hair for long but the manufacturer calls it a deep penetrating treatment. What is interesting is--assuming the complete list of ingredients is what is shown below--water is missing from the list.

*
Manufacturer's Product Description
* Our intensive weekly treatment deeply penetrates to help repair, seal and smooth even the most damaged hair. Using the power of pure plant oils and quinoa protein, it restores health, silkiness and shine. • part of a three-step restructuring system • helps strengthen hair weakened by chemical processes, heat styling and environmental exposure • quinoa protein penetrates the hair shaft, working from inside to help strengthen and repair • phellodendron and barley seal in moisture • castor, jojoba and meadowfoam seed oils smooth hair's surface
*
Directions
* • After washing, smooth treatment from roots to ends, leaving on 2-5 minutes before rinsing. • For best results, use as part of a rejuvenating weekly ritual, following Damage RemedyTM Restructuring Shampoo.
*
Ingredients
* Barley, Caster oil, Jojoba oil*, Meadowfoam seed oil, Phellodendron, Quinoa protein*

(Source)

 

[davisbr88]

If the answer is oils, I am going to be extremely happy because I have PLENTY of that! You can make lots of conditioners DCs if all you have to do is add oils, as long as the ingredients are penetrating ingredients that don't just coat the strand (like cones).

 

[virtuenow]

Bee Mine Deep conditioner ingredients: Ingredients:
Distilled water, Cetearyl Alcohol, BTMS (mild emulsifier), 100% Unrefined Shea Butter , 100% Organic Coconut Oil, Cupuacu Butter, Calendula Extract, Chamomile Extract, Organic Raw Honey, Paraben Free Preservative, Fragrance (Phthalate Free).

Clearly the shea butter and coconut oil have taken over this conditioner--that alone would bring it to the "deeper" level. I never tried, but hopefully someone can report whether it is watered down since water is at the top.

 

[davisbr88]

The consistency is pretty much identical to the Bee Hold Butter. It's very creamy. I wouldn't consider it watered down at all, and it works wonders for my hair.
Both Bee Mine and TJ have chamomile as well. I wonder what chamomile does...
I really am starting to think the key is oils/butters.

 

[virtuenow]

nonie, I just read your post---ran and grabbed my Aveda Damage REmedy bottle---and you're right. This Aveda smells exactly like the Ao Gpb, too. How strange is that-- since the smell is so unique. It not watery like alot of conditioners but thick and rich in something (I don't undestand these ingredients).

Davisbr, I love oils and if I can't work this conditioner study out, and find one that actually moisturizes/strengthens my hair, then I'm going to just stick to oil rinses for my conditioning.

 

[Nonie]

If the answer is oils, I am going to be extremely happy because I have PLENTY of that! You can make lots of conditioners DCs if all you have to do is add oils, as long as the ingredients are penetrating ingredients that don't just coat the strand (like cones).

@davisbr88 @ you guessing what I'd say about product makers.

I don't think it's the oil. Pantene's Pro-V Curly Hair Series Deep Moisturizing Treatment doesn't have oils in its ingredients and it does have water as a first ingredient :scratchch

Water, Stearyl Alcohol, Bis Aminopropyl Dimethicone, Behentrimonium Chloride, Cetyl Alcohol, Fragrance, Benzyl Alcohol, Disodium EDTA, Panthenol, Panthenyl Ethyl Ether, Sodium Hydroxide, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone

 

[virtuenow]

I agree, oils and butters are the key. You're gonna make me throw away my conditioners before my experiemnt is complete (dont say another word!).