What is the BARE MINIMUM it takes to be a CHRISTIAN?

envybeauty

New Member
I just read another thread and the question came to me. I'm also curious as to what it takes to be a Jew, Muslim, etc. but that is for another day.

Folks are quick to talk about "other" Christians yet I often wonder, are they Christian? How is that defined for them/you?

Is Christianity in the bloodlines (your granny went to church so you are by default a Christian?)? Is it just proclaiming that "Jesus is your Savior" and nothing else? Is it going to church only on Easter and nothing else?

What makes a person a Christian in your opinion? (Keep in mind, could the person be of another faith if they did all that you say?)

I'll give my answer after some other thoughts are posted. :drunk:
 

BeautifulFlower

Well-Known Member
It is believing in Jesus Christ as Lord (ruler over every area in your life) and Savior (he's the only one that can redeem you to God through his death). This is the not only the bare minimum but is the first step of a process.

Once you sincerely confess with your mouth (emphasis on sincerely) and invite him to rule over your life, He will begin a transformation in you that will draw you closer to him. The desire to live for Christ is not something we choose, we are chosen. There is nothing innately good in us but Jesus that lives in us makes us holy and acceptable.
 
Just to piggy back on my girl...
We suck
Christ died and rose again...
If you believe it and you own that, then you're a Christian.
He is your savior...
but you still suck, cuz people suck:grin:
His love makes us whole...
 

envybeauty

New Member
oK. I get that.

So until a person accepts that Jesus died for our sins, that person is not a Christian? That is the line he must cross to be considered a Christian?
 

Laela

Sidestepping the "lynch mob"
Good morning Envy,

I don't believe in BARE MINIMUM when it comes to salvation.

God is all or nothing, so our approach to salvation should be in line with that. From the moment a person gives their life to God, by accepting his son Jesus, they have given their life to him -- not part of themselves or part of their heart. That can't work with God. One who accepts Jesus will grow in him from that point on, so mistakes and sin will likely occur along the way. But since their heart belongs to him, God will always be with them whenever they stumble - because through Jesus, God has ownership of that person's life.

God will get my best... whether it's my stewardship in all I do or my possessions. He won't get the bare minimum.
 

envybeauty

New Member
Good morning Laela! :)

I am curious about "salvation." Is it as simple as believing that Jesus died to save us from sin? How are you defining salvation? It's never been very clear to me what folks mean when they ask, "Are you saved?" -- is it the same as asking, "Are you a Christian?" -- can you be a Christian and not be saved?




Good morning Envy,

I don't believe in BARE MINIMUM when it comes to salvation.

God is all or nothing, so our approach to salvation should be in line with that. From the moment a person gives their life to God, by accepting his son Jesus, they have given their life to him -- not part of themselves or part of their heart. That can't work with God. One who accepts Jesus will grow in him from that point on, so mistakes and sin will likely occur along the way. But since their heart belongs to him, God will always be with them whenever they stumble - because through Jesus, God has ownership of that person's life.

God will get my best... whether it's my stewardship in all I do or my possessions. He won't get the bare minimum.
 

Ramya

New Member
The only thing we can offer God is praise and obedience. Some of us give all that we can at the moment and later realize that we can give more. For me it's always been a process. I speak "Lord I give You all of me" but my actions don't always line up with my words and that's OK. If I continue to speak it while in the midst, things will change. God meets us where we are at. It may not appear that someone is giving their life to God but it may be all that they know how to give at the time. :yep: (Granted they believe that He is their Lord and Savior and have confessed this with their mouths)
 
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I will give it to you a bit more simply... (trying my best not to sound like I know it all, cuz I really don't)
  • John 3:16 says God loves everyone so much, that He died on the cross to pay for our sins...
  • in the bible it says that because we are sinners or because we do the wrong thing, we are going to die...
  • not only die physically, but also be separated for Christ
  • meaning, he is in heaven with all this comfort and love... I also like to think of heaven as a place with endless sunshine and roller coasters, but thats neither here or there
  • so... because we are sinners, or do bad things, we can't go to heaven because it is perfect there, and we are not...
  • However, since God came to earth as a human and was perfect... he didn't sin or do anything wrong... He was a good candidate to take all of our punishment for us...
  • cuz if he did sin, he would've deserved it too...
  • so, He became a human (who people call Jesus, and also His son), died on the cross in our place, and then rose from the dead. And with that, he paid for all of the wrongs we do and will do.
  • all you have to do is believe that He did it,
  • believe that He loves you that much,
  • and believe that He is with you always...
  • Salvation is the act of Him paying for your wrong doings on the cross...
  • It is called salvation or being saved because he saved you and all of us from having to go to Hell or being separated from Him forever after you die.
it is a difficult concept to understand, and a lot of people are going to give you "Christian" responses that don't make sense... "confess with your mouths," "praise and obedience," etc.
Not that those statements are wrong, but what is easier to understand are the plain facts...
He loves you, He died for you, He rose again, and now you don't have to be afraid of anything, even death!
I hope this is easy for you to understand...
Christianity is difficult to understand, but feeling the love of God isn't as complex...
I used to think He was just this being in the sky that didn't help me or allowed bad things to happen, sometimes I still do LOL
but when I am hurting so badly and I'm crying to the point where I physically hurt, I have prayed simple prayers... asking him to just make me feel better, and I feel a certain calm...
I hope this brings you some clarification lady...
don't worry about Christianity or all these THINGS, just worry about getting to know Him... and it seems crazy but just try Him out, talk to Him for a bit... He won't let u down.
 

Laela

Sidestepping the "lynch mob"
I'm not approaching Salvation from a religious doctrine approach..to me, it's a personal decision between one person and God himself. I believe that salvation isn't just that decision to accept Christ, it's a way of life -- constantly working on staying/drawing closer to God.

I am curious about "salvation." Is it as simple as believing that Jesus died to save us from sin? How are you defining salvation?

If I ask someone if they are saved, then yes, I am asking them if they are a Christian. If they are not being true, they're not deceiving me...they are deceiving themselves. This is tricky, because we have gotten to the point where the word CHRISTIAN has become somewhat perverted because we tend to focus only on the bad fruit (actions) of those who fall short. For example: The word "*ss" is in the Bible, but we've perverted it to be a curse word and not what it was intended to be - a donkey. [see, even the computer bleeped the word.. lol]

But we have to keep it simple and don't forget the first five letters of the Word. CHRISTIAN is not a label, it's a confession. Everyone's walk with God is different, so if someone say they are Christian but their lives don't line up with the Word of God, who am I to say they aren't saved (accepted Jesus)? That's between them and God.

But I tell you, as brother or sister in Christ, we can acknowledge the fruit (actions) of other brothers and sisters in Christ, because that's what we SEE and we can admonish them based on the evidence. But I am in no position to judge them because I don't know their heart. There's a difference between acknowledging one's fruit and judging/condemning them. Some of us in this forum understand that.

Whenever I want to make sense of something, I ask myself it it lines up with God's Word. There's a Scripture for everything under the Son.


It's never been very clear to me what folks mean when they ask, "Are you saved?" -- is it the same as asking, "Are you a Christian?" -- can you be a Christian and not be saved?
 
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Nonie

Well-Known Member
"Christian" is a word that is hard to define. It means different things to different people. One who believes and follows the teachings of Mohammed is a Muslim and one who believes and follows the teaching of Jesus Christ is a Christian.

And then when you're among followers of Christ, there are those for whom you have to be saved to call yourself a Christian. To be saved, you must accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and make Him Lord of your life.

I have a friend who says she's not a Christian, she's Catholic. :huh: See what I mean? To me she is indeed a Christian (as she does believe in the teachings of the Bible and in Christ), she just is not a Protestant (a member of the group that separated from the Roman Catholic Church years back).

Then there are those who piggyback on their family's religion. They are Christian because that's what their family is. They don't really care one way or another. Don't really believe or disbelieve Christ and his teachings. At one time in their life, they may have gone to Sunday School and learned from the Bible about Christ and how to live for Him. They may not be doing it now but they never changed their religion. If they had to check one box on a form under "Religion?" they couldn't pick any other since they haven't really been affiliated with any other.

So I guess one can be Christian by default, or by choice. Then the question comes about on whether one is an active Christian (living by the Word) or just passive (believes in the teachings of Christianity but just isn't practicing it).
 
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envybeauty

New Member
Ok....great comments! Food for thought for sure!

Originally, I would question whether the person professing to be a Christian really was a Christian. I'm thinking of those who don't go to church, don't read the bible, don't live Godly lives by any means (not tithing, not praying, etc.). Yet, they continue to say they were Christian.

Or, even those who left Christianity and turned to other religions. I'm not knocking the turning point-- I'm knocking the origination. If the person was not acting Christ-like, how could they turn from "Christianity" when they really didn't know it to begin with (in my honest opinion).

That's why I asked because while I wanted to clarify for myself -- what is the starting point to a person's Christian journey? Because while I feel like I know what it is not, I could not clearly define for myself what it is to be a "Christian" on a universal level.
 

Nonie

Well-Known Member
Ok....great comments! Food for thought for sure!

Originally, I would question whether the person professing to be a Christian really was a Christian. I'm thinking of those who don't go to church, don't read the bible, don't live Godly lives by any means (not tithing, not praying, etc.). Yet, they continue to say they were Christian.

Or, even those who left Christianity and turned to other religions. I'm not knocking the turning point-- I'm knocking the origination. If the person was not acting Christ-like, how could they turn from "Christianity" when they really didn't know it to begin with (in my honest opinion).

See, you can't knock them down because again, their definition of Christianity is different from yours. If they say they are a Christian, they may just mean Christian as opposed to being a Muslim. Your definition of Christian is someone who adheres to Christ's teachings and aims to live by them. But there may be another who thinks someone who does that but doesn't cover her head when she goes to church or still eats pork is not a real Christian. And yet another might never go to church, never be seen to tithe, but is so true to the Word, never putting a foot wrong, just doing it in secret where only God sees. Gets his church teachings from the Pastor on TV. Gives 1/10 of his income to charity and the work of God unknown to anyone else...in other words, he could be the best photograph Jesus ever took, but so humble in his living giving all glory to God so no one really ever notices him but God and those very close to him. And then you have someone who does all the things you listed: goes to church, tithes generously that everyone knows, prays out loud for all to see, every time you see him he is reading his Bible (or at least carrying it), but behind closed doors molests kids, embezzles funds from his job, etc. In other words, he isn't led by the Spirit at all, so unless the world is watching he's always up to no good. Do you see how difficult it becomes to be a judge of who is a Christian who lives by the Word and who isn't?

Some of the best Christians I know are the ones that make the least noise. They get no glory but they do such good and are so good that you find yourself wondering about them and knowing without doubt that they must be led by the Lord.

So my suggestion is not to bother your poor head trying to figure out who's a Christian and who is not, because in the end, you don't really know their heart of hearts. And also as I have stated, your definition may be different from theirs, and what ends up happening is you start noticing specks in others' eyes when you need to be figuring out how to remove the log in yours (to borrow the words from the Bible). If someone tells you they are a Christian, assume they mean the religion. Let their fruits clarify it further for you...but even then remember, only God knows the heart so it could be just show. Remember the devil masquerades as an angel of light, so the "Christian" you admire and think is the best of them all, may be the biggest wolf in sheep's clothing. What's more, since we are of the world, even the best of us falls sometime, so you may catch one who's been living by the Word at a time when Satan got the best of him. And in your limited knowledge conclude they are not really Christians when really they just underwent a trial/test that they failed and for which they will repent and get forgiveness and a clean slate to start afresh.

Christians fall into a wide spectrum and many are so caught up in the laws of their denomination that almost every Christian can find shortcomings in another Christian. So I think it's futile trying to figure what a Christian is, let alone what a Christian isn't. Focus on living your life according to the will of God and worry not about where others stand with God.
 
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GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I

New Member
The desire to live for Christ is not something we choose, we are chosen. There is nothing innately good in us but Jesus that lives in us makes us holy and acceptable.

??? Doesn't G-d want every man to go to the happy hunting grounds in the afterlife? Does He then predestine some for hell and others for heaven? I'm confused....

:bump: :bump:
 
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varaneka

New Member
might I add that there is no such thing as being lukewarm for Jesus. Either you're hot (on His side) or you're cold (not on His side). God bless you and your families
 
ugh i hate the term lukewarm... i hate all measurements... all Christians suck, everyone has their own weakness, we are all faced with the same destiny. oh well
 

varaneka

New Member
that's pretty pessimistic. the Bible says that we are fearfully AND WONDERFULLY made. He doesn't say to hate ourselves. Satan is the accuser. Let him do his job of hating all mankind. I don't think that any of us should try to add to what he says. Focusing on what God says about us is all that matters in the end.
 

Highly Favored8

Well-Known Member
oK. I get that.

So until a person accepts that Jesus died for our sins, that person is not a Christian? That is the line he must cross to be considered a Christian?


For me when I was on another path b/f I starting walking with the Lord then the answer for your question for me would be yes. I mean I was on a different path that did not glorify God/ and his son Jesus Christ. I went my own way so at that moment in my life no, I was not a Christian at all. When it comes to seeking God for me I have to accept that Jesus died for all of mankinds sins. I see where you are going with the last question however, for me IMHO that was the deal breaker for me when I gave my whole life back over to the Lord and I never looked back.:yep:
 
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Nonie

Well-Known Member
??? Doesn't G-d want every man to go to the happy hunting grounds in the afterlife? Does He then predestine some for hell and others for heaven? I'm confused....

That is the million dollar question and perhaps one of those questions we will have to wait to see Him to ask Him. If you read the Bible, you will come across many verses that seem to imply that there are those chosen of God-- the sheep who hear the Lord's voice--and then there are those that will not because they are not of His flock. You will read of God's wrath that gives up on people who chose godlessness over His word so that they no longer seem to have a conscious. And then you find yourself remembering that God is the all-knowing God so He must know the future. He must know who will end up in hell. While we do have free will, there's also the fact that God is in control of all. See how confusing it all becomes?

A long time ago I found an old book that helped explain some of these things, not perfectly but enough for me to stop questioning anymore but resolve that any uncertainty I will wait till I either ask Him or as I grow and understand more, get to grasp it in due time. I am sorry I don't remember the book and I would probably do a bad job of explaining it. But I did find something that echoes that book better than I would have done. If you still have questions, I suggest you pray and ask the One who holds all the answers, for when I had this question, I found this answer and it sufficed. He does say if you ask you will receive so take Him up on that:

About Predestination


“And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many bretheren. Moreover whom He predestinated, these He also called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these he also glorified.” (Romans 8:28-30)
The concept of predestination has confused and separated Christians for generations. Some claim that God, through predestination, is being unfair. Others would just rather leave it out of their Bible. Indeed, most modern churches have chosen to simply ignore it. Yet, all of the Protestant churches that came into being out of the Reformation held to the doctrine. But today, with so much humanism in the church, the idea of a sovereign God who controls all things is not popular. However, God’s sovereignty is spelled out for us throughout the entire Bible and so is predestination.
As a doctrine, predestination states that God sovereignly elects who is to be saved. He makes this choice totally independent of anything that we may do. He does not choose us based upon faith because our faith is a gracious gift of God to those He has chosen. Nor does He choose us based upon our good works. Nor does He look into the future to see who would choose to believe. He elects people to eternal salvation based purely on His own good pleasure. Those not elected are not saved. Does this sound a bit unfair? In reality, it’s just the opposite.


THE HIGHWAY TO HELL
Man is a sinner and the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Thus, all of us would be on our way to hell without the salvation graciously provided by God. “…Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. “As it is written: There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” (Romans 3:10-12).
Because of this situation, man is incapable of understanding the things of God. “But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14). Thus, from his birth, man is on the highway to hell. He cannot and he will not, choose to come to God. So God “. . chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.” (Ephesians 1:4-5).


FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE?
God chooses us. We do not (for we cannot) choose him. Can you imagine the sovereign God of the universe sending his Son to die for sinners who may or may not choose to come to him? Does it make sense that, after His resurrection, Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Father and began to wait for sinners to choose whether or not to come to him? That would mean that, on the cross, Jesus died for no one in particular. But, that is not the case. Christ’s atonement was specifically for his people - “I lay down my life for the sheep” (John 10:15). He did not shed his blood for those who would not come to him. He has not paid the price for their sin - they will. “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.” (John 17:9).


UNDESERVED MERCY
Is that unfair? Hardly. Fairness is that we all go to hell. All men are sinners and deserve to go to hell. God owes us nothing. Yet, God has chosen to save some from that eternal punishment. C. H. Spurgeon said, “The amazing thing is not that everybody isn’t saved, but that anybody is saved.”
Instead of being unfair, this is mercy at its utmost. God does not have to show mercy to any one. “For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” (Romans 9:15). “Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?” (Romans 9:21)


GOD IS IN CONTROL
With a closer look, predestination is not seen as the unfair doctrine that so many would claim it to be. Predestination is the result of God’s mercy and love. It guarantees the salvation of the ones He has called. It reveals the true nature of man to be sinful and rebellious toward God.
It puts God in total sovereign control, where He belongs. It removes man’s ability to take any credit for his own salvation, because even the act of believing can not be created in a sinful free will. It allows the saved to rest assured in the knowledge that it was God himself who made their salvation sure.
http://answers.agblogger.org/2008/03/17/are-some-predestined-for-heaven-and-others-for-hell/

So my point of view is that since we all deserved to die, it is very gracious of God that He will allow any of us to live at all. I don't question how He decided who lives. I just trust in His wisdom and if I happen to be one of those, accept the gift humbly. And I also believe that those not of his flock will be the ones that will end up as described in Romans 1. I don't think they will be able to help themselves. I don't think there will be any in-between.
 
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Nonie

Well-Known Member
Umm no. God says we are His beloved. He LOVES us. I don't know about you but I don't suck and I don't think most people suck. :nono:

I don't think when she says Christians suck she means it in any other way than that we have all sinned and fallen short of the grace of God. I think we sometimes get so caught up in words. Of course, I'm sure she knows we are all fearfully and wonderfully made and that when God made us He looked at all He had made and it was good. But I think her point is that we need not cast stones because not one of us is without fault.
 

msa

New Member
Well I have two different views of it.

At my church we don't really refer to ourselves as Christians but as Believers. The two requirements of being a believer are 1) being baptized in the name of Yeshua and 2) receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit whose evidence is speaking in tongues. Of course, this is based on the interpretation of the bible as my church sees it.

My personal bare minimum is to treat others how I want to be treated and to build my relationship with my God so that I can be a good reflection of Him. In fact, on my facebook under religious views it says "do unto others" because that's the basis of how I live my everyday life.

Everything about Christianity is debatable, IMO. Everyone's bare minimum is going to be different.
 

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I

New Member
So my point of view is that since we all deserved to die, it is very gracious of God that He will allow any of us to live at all. I don't question how He decided who lives. I just trust in His wisdom and if I happen to be one of those, accept the gift humbly. And I also believe that those not of his flock will be the ones that will end up as described in Romans 1. I don't think they will be able to help themselves. I don't think there will be any in-between.

This is precisely why I believe the ancients were so wise...when you don't know, you don't assume much about the Great One at all. Judas Iscariot? Also why I don't comprehend folks going around claiming they are "saved." Well, not yet...will only know when they die. Somehow, I think many have misinterpreted those scriptures.

And it seems that the farther away the religious migrate from the orthodox faith (the first), the more "saved" they become...when, in fact, those remaining orthodox are quick to proclaim they are on a journey and will stick it out until the end, hoping to be justified in the end. Seems safer to me.

The scriptures are full of contradictions...for a reason. I think it's so no man will justifiably brag upon his own merits..but solely upon those of G-d.

Submitted by Nonie
As a doctrine, predestination states that God sovereignly elects who is to be saved. He makes this choice totally independent of anything that we may do. He does not choose us based upon faith because our faith is a gracious gift of God to those He has chosen. Nor does He choose us based upon our good works. Nor does He look into the future to see who would choose to believe. He elects people to eternal salvation based purely on His own good pleasure. Those not elected are not saved. Does this sound a bit unfair? In reality, it’s just the opposite.

Then wouldn't that make G-d a hypocrite, condemning those to hell for being just what He created them to be, infidels? That would give man the upper hand....and that's why I don't believe in that doctrine. It's not biblical, imho. There are scriptures that seemingly support that doctrine...however, there are scriptures that do not, leading me to believe that there is a misinterpretation.
 
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GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I

New Member
Well I have two different views of it.

At my church we don't really refer to ourselves as Christians but as Believers. The two requirements of being a believer are 1) being baptized in the name of Yeshua and 2) receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit whose evidence is speaking in tongues. Of course, this is based on the interpretation of the bible as my church sees it.

My personal bare minimum is to treat others how I want to be treated and to build my relationship with my God so that I can be a good reflection of Him. In fact, on my facebook under religious views it says "do unto others" because that's the basis of how I live my everyday life.

Everything about Christianity is debatable, IMO. Everyone's bare minimum is going to be different.

So, are there those in your congregation who have been baptised in Yeshua but have not yet spoken in tongues?:hide: Just asking....I know I haven't. I'm going to do a poll. Maybe there's something there.
 

msa

New Member
So, are there those in your congregation who have been baptised in Yeshua but have not yet spoken in tongues?:hide: Just asking....I know I haven't. I'm going to do a poll. Maybe there's something there.


Yup there are.

Me myself, I don't know that I totally believe in speaking in tongues. But that's a whole different conversation.
 

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I

New Member
Yup there are.

Me myself, I don't know that I totally believe in speaking in tongues. But that's a whole different conversation.

I can remember a family member talking me into attending a Kenneth Copeland seminar. They all went up...so did I, reluctantly. :sad: He kinda pushed me, laying his hands on me and telling me to ..."just start with this...'ubabashemda '...whateverthehell." I was like, :look: I remember being with a friend and her family in this one evangelical church and in a separate worship service for single young adults, just about EVERYBODY was kneeling, speaking in tongues. I was like....:look:. But she seemed to have a great experience.

Edit: I'm meaning to say I was mislead in 1 service...and left out of another lol. But it looks to be a very moving experience.
 
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Nonie

Well-Known Member
Then wouldn't that make G-d a hypocrite, condemning those to hell for being just what He created them to be, infidels? That would give man the upper hand....and that's why I don't believe in that doctrine. It's not biblical, imho. There are scriptures that seemingly support that doctrine...however, there are scriptures that do not, leading me to believe that there is a misinterpretation.

You see, I can't even go there. God doesn't contradict Himself nor is there anything negative (eg hypocrisy) in Him. I think this is one of those topics that you really have to study prayerfully to grasp. Here's an article about this that may help clarify things (or maybe not). But I assure you, if you seek the truth prayerfully, you will get the enlightenment you want, if you seek it with all your heart:

God’s Foreknowledge and Unconditional Election unto Salvation
What we understand and believe about the nature of God’s foreknowledge directly affects whether we believe that election is “conditional” or “unconditional“.
Following are definitions of Unconditional Election and Conditional Election provided by the online Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconditional_election):
“In Protestant theology, election is considered to be one aspect of predestination in which God selects certain individuals to be saved. Those elected receive mercy, while those not elected, the reprobate, receive justice.
In Calvinism, this election is called “unconditional” because his choice to save someone does not hinge on anything inherent in the person or on any act that the person performs or belief that the person exercises. Indeed, according to the doctrine of total inability (the first of the five points of Calvinism), the influence of sin has so inhibited the individual’s volition that no one is willing or able to come to or follow God apart from God first regenerating the person’s heart to give them the ability to love him. Hence, God’s choice in election is and can only be based solely on God’s own independent and sovereign will and not upon the foreseen actions of man.
The Reformed position is frequently contrasted with the Arminian doctrine of conditional election in which God’s eternal choice to save a person is conditioned on God’s certain foreknowledge of future events, namely, that certain individuals would exercise faith and trust in response to God’s offer of salvation.”
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If two Christian brothers disagree on the doctrine of election, it is likely that the root of their disagreement is in their respective beliefs and understanding of the doctrine of God’s foreknowledge. The person who believes that God’s election of persons unto salvation is conditional on His foreknowledge of whether they will choose to have saving faith in Jesus Christ typically has a vigorous disagreement with the one who believes that God in His foreknowledge chose or elected some of all of mankind who are lost in sin to be saved (for His divine purposes and good pleasure). Generally, the former leans more toward Arminian or “free will” oriented theological positions emphasizing man’s responsibility to “choose” to believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation. The later leans toward “Calvinistic” or “predestination” oriented theological positions emphasizing God’s sovereign choice in electing people unto salvation through Jesus Christ. At the root of this difference in understanding about the nature of divine election unto salvation is a difference in our understanding of the nature and effect of God’s foreknowledge.
***************
Those such as myself who are Calvinistic in their beliefs emphasize the doctrines of God’s grace in regards to salvation. We believe strongly in unconditional election flowing from the sovereign decree of God over all things.
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Since it is beyond my capabilities to adequately explain this Calvinistic view of God’s foreknowledge, again I am turning to A. W. Pink’s explanation in The Attributes of God (Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, Michigan – 2001). (Any bold or underlined text in what follows are my own efforts to highlight certain points for the reader.)
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Attributes/attributes.htm
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A. Confusion and Disagreement about the Nature of God’s Foreknowledge

“When the solemn and blessed subject of Divine foreordination is expounded, when God’s eternal choice of certain ones to be conformed to the image of His Son is set forth, the Enemy sends along some man to argue that election is based upon the foreknowledge of God, and this “foreknowledge” is interpreted to mean that God foresaw certain ones would be more pliable than others, that they would respond more readily to the strivings of the Spirit, and that because God knew they would believe, He, accordingly, predestinated them unto salvation. But such a statement is radically wrong. It repudiates the truth of total depravity, for it argues that there is something good in some men. It takes away the independency of God, for it makes His decrees rest upon what He discovers in the creature. It completely turns things upside down, for in saying God foresaw certain sinners would believe in Christ, and that because of this, He predestinated them unto salvation, is the very reverse of the truth. Scripture affirms that God, in His high sovereignty, singled out certain ones to be recipients of His distinguishing favors (Acts 13:48), and therefore He determined to bestow upon them the gift of faith. False theology makes God’s foreknowledge of our believing the cause of His election to salvation; whereas, God’s election is the cause, and our believing in Christ is the effect.
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B. Scriptural “Foreknowledge” is in reference to Persons, not to their Actions

“The fact is that “foreknowledge” is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always has reference to persons. It is persons God is said to “foreknow,” not the actions of those persons. In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found.”

  • The first occurrence is in Acts 2:23. There we read, “Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.” If careful attention is paid to the wording of this verse it will be seen that the apostle was not there speaking of God’s foreknowledge of the act of the crucifixion, but of the Person crucified: “Him (Christ) being delivered by,” etc.

  • The second occurrence is in Romans 8:29,30. “For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image, of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called,” etc. Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts but the persons themselves, which is here in view.

  • God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew” (Rom. 11:2). Once more the plain reference is to persons, and to persons only.

  • The last mention is in 1 Peter 1:2: “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.” Who are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father? The previous verse tells us: the reference is to the “strangers scattered” i.e. the Diaspora, the Dispersion, the believing Jews. Thus, here too the reference is to persons, and not to their foreseen acts.
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C. People are the Object of God’s Foreknowledge in Scripture – Not their Actions

“Now in view of these passages (and there are no more) what scriptural ground is there for anyone saying God “foreknew” the acts of certain ones, viz., their “repenting and believing,” and that because of those acts He elected them unto salvation? The answer is, None whatever. Scripture never speaks of repentance and faith as being foreseen or foreknown by God. Truly, He did know from all eternity that certain ones would repent and believe, yet this is not what Scripture refers to as the object of God’s “foreknowledge.” The word uniformly refers to God’s foreknowing persons; …”
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Continued in the next post (was too long for one)...
 

Nonie

Well-Known Member
D. God’s Sovereign Decree is evidenced in God’s Foreknowledge

“Another thing to which we desire to call particular attention is that the first two passages quoted (i.e. Acts 2:23 and Romans 8:29) above show plainly and teach implicitly that God’s “foreknowledge” is not causative, that instead, something else lies behind, precedes it, and that something is His own sovereign decree. Christ was “delivered by the (1) determinate counsel and (2) foreknowledge of God.” (Acts 2:23). His “counsel” or decree was the ground of His foreknowledge. So again in Romans 8:29. That verse opens with the word “for,” which tells us to look back to what immediately precedes. What, then, does the previous verse say? This, “all things work together for good to them. . . .who are the called according to His purpose.” Thus God’s foreknowledge is based upon His purpose or decree (see Ps. 2:7).”

God foreknows what will be because He has decreed what shall be. It is therefore a reversing of the order of Scripture, a putting of the cart before the horse, to affirm that God elects because He foreknows people. The truth is, He “foreknows” because He has elected. This removes the ground or cause of election from outside the creature, and places it in God’s own sovereign will. God purposed in Himself to elect a certain people, not because of anything good in them or from them, either actual or foreseen, but solely out of His own mere pleasure. As to why He chose the ones He did, we do not know, and can only say, “Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Thy sight.” The plain truth of Romans 8:29 is that God, before the foundation of the world, singled out certain sinners and appointed them unto salvation (2 Thess. 2:13). This is clear from the concluding words of the verse: “Predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son,” etc. God did not predestinate those whom He foreknew were “conformed,” but, on the contrary, those whom He “foreknew” (i.e., loved and elected) He predestinated to be conformed. Their conformity to Christ is not the cause, but the effect of God’s foreknowledge and predestination.
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E. The Final Humbling Point Regarding God’s Foreknowledge and Our Salvation

“If then the reader be a real Christian, he is so because God chose him in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4), and chose not because He foresaw you would believe, but chose simply because it pleased Him to choose: chose you notwithstanding your natural unbelief.”
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Another source of grace-oriented teaching in regards to God’s Foreknowledge can be found at the Grace To You website authored by Pastor John MacArthur, Jr. (http://www.gty.org/). The following references address the issue in a direct manner.
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Transcripts/90-181
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Transcripts/90-273
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/9692
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Pastor Bob DeWaay addresses the critical theological issue of open theism and the foreknowledge of God in one of his “Critical Issue Commentaries”: http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue58.htm
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Our understanding of theological issues such as God’s foreknowledge, election, predestination, the person of Christ, the attributes of God, etc., etc. are not just arcane exercises in intellectual gymnastics. What we believe about unconditional election affects our approach to telling others about the gospel of Christ. If we believe in unconditional election and predestination, we should preach the gospel message faithfully – trusting that God will bring all His elect to salvation through the preaching of God’s word by ourselves and/or others. If we instead believe in conditional election without reliance on God’s independent predestination of His chosen ones unto salvation, then the responsibility for saving people is upon ourselves. They are lost in sin and we as Christians are inadequate to fulfill our responsibilities in this view of God’s workings. With careful thought a person can figure out the impact these two divergent beliefs have upon church ministries and how the Christian life is lived. Those believing in conditional election will tend more and more toward the use of every “gospel-marketing approach” they can possibly construe of (biblical or not) to “fulfill their responsibility”as they see it to bring others to Christ. Much more can be said on this, but it will wait for another time.
God is much more reliable than we are in bringing His elect unto saving faith in Jesus Christ! I will cast my lot in reliance on God’s abilities and sovereignty in the matter of people’s (including my own) salvation rather than on any abilities I may have in this area. Calvinist or not, we as Christians are called in obedience to go and make disciples (Matthew 28:18-20), to be His witnesses (Acts 1:8), and to carry out the ministry of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:21). Evangelism for someone who is Calvinistic in their theological understanding is an issue of obedience and loving service to God, trusting Him for the ultimate results and fruit.
Churchlayman
http://churchlayman.wordpress.com/2...ge-and-unconditional-election-unto-salvation/
 
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