Conservative Christian VS Liberal Christian

[Poohbear]

See now it's a matter of convictions v command. There are things God commands us to do and there are things that individually via prompting of the Holy Spirit we are advised not to do. I can't listen to a lot of secular music but it's due to conviction, not law.

Thank you for answering my question. Makes perfect sense!

However, I just don't think a Christian should judge another Christian's salvation just because they listen to r&b music every once in a while, or go see a rated R movie, or go have a drink. Of course, we are going to be judged for our actions, but I wish more people would realize that every Christian is at different levels in their walk with Christ and personal relationship with God.

i didn't read all of the thread, but just about the bolded...
its not accepting the world's system. its being tolerant of those around you. the gay married couple, the muslim, the rapist... all of these are people, and if they are unsaved they are going to hell... they are damned to eternal punishment. these people deserve our respect. they are not scabs in our lil Christian world.
We need to be prepared to debate our faith properly with unsaved people... Study the bible's truths and remember them. Forget the rest. Know what you know and live in tolerance and peace. Be an example of Christ's love. Then when you are given the chance, share the truths of His love and his gift of salvation.
If you are a believer you are blessed with an advantage... why not just share this advantage with others instead of trying to "set yourselves apart."
Jesus walked with the lepers, lets follow His example.

I totally agree. God commands us to love everyone. It's okay to hate someone's actions or behaviors, however, we shouldn't hate the actual person. Everyone does wrong (and I'm not saying that as an excuse to sin). We just have to be more mindful and aware of what's right and wrong and avoid yielding to temptation, and also helping our brother or sister who falls or is falling into Satan's traps of deception. We need to be like Jesus and share the Gospel with people who are unsaved or living outside of God's will.

ITA people are on different levels in their Christian walk...they can be a Carnal Christian, a Natural Christian and a Spiritual Christian.

But in Revelation, God says he will spit one who is lukewarm - neither hot nor cold -- from his mouth.

Lukewarm is one who knows better just can't seem to make up their mind whether to serve God or the devil and at times go in /out, based on how they feel at any given moment in life and can be in torment because of this. God will always take them back should they repent. But until they decide to give their life fully to God, they are lukewarm.

I totally agree with your definition of the term lukewarm.

 

[divya]

I am a Christian.

The conservative v. liberal, traditional v. progressive terms seem like the politicizing of our faith, which is my personal reason for avoiding them. It's too much. My prayer is simply that the Lord finds my walk pleasing to Him...

 

[divya]

I agree. Along with adultery and divorce.

I just find it odd that America was brought up on Christian values, yet, divorce and abortion are legalized. erplexed

I also wish fornication and adultery were spoken against more. It seems like these two sins are more condoned in the world, even among Christians.

Just to provide an alternate viewpoint...

It may seem strange but it's actually the way things should be. The U.S. was meant to be a religiously neutral nation, even though the majority of individuals were (and are) Christian.

Divorce and abortion are not affairs of the government. We have become somewhat accustomed to believing that the government should be a party to our marriage when in fact the parties to marriage are God, husband, and wife (not husband, wife and state as the law attempts to dictate). Abortion, though wrong in the eyes of God, is a personal decision between the individual(s) and the Lord, rather than the state. God gives us all the freedom of choice - to do right or wrong. He will ultimately reward "every man according as his work shall be." Rev. 22:12-16.

Mark 12:17 - And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

 

[Poohbear]

After reading everyone's point of views, I'm starting to not like the terms of Conservative and Liberal as well. These terms can be demeaning to the true Christian faith and cause division among Christians when God really wants us to be in unity.

 

[divya]

After reading everyone's point of views, I'm starting to not like the terms of Conservative and Liberal as well. These terms can be demeaning to the true Christian faith and cause division among Christians when God really wants us to be in unity.

It is something that we should carefully examine, imho. It may be perfectly fine in certain instances, but it often seems to result in a "ranking" of spiritual issues, which doesn't have any basis within Christianity according to the Word. Sin is sin. Our actions are either pleasing to God or not pleasing to Him. As you pointed out earlier, homosexuality and abortion seems to receive primary concern but fornication and adultery sometimes appear to be left in the dust. Yet the Scriptures say...

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:28-32 - And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[Poohbear]

^^^divya, you are certainly right about that.

 

[music-bnatural-smile]

Jesus did not require tolerance; He wanted us to feed His sheep, to prepare His bride for His coming. He didn't walk with lepers; He cured them.

The topic is about the conservative/liberal mindset, so I thought the discussion concerned the mind and the world's influence over it. "To set apart" is a continuous mental exercise, not a physical one. Prayer and studying the Bible are two things that do set us apart from the world. One does not have to tolerate actions to be of any good to witnessing or sharing with others on the broad path.

The problem of this is the degree and level to which you want to speak about intolerance... Does intolerance mean disagreeing, or does it mean walking up to everyone who is sinning and telling them that they are going to hell...
When I say tolerance I mean to realize what we can't change and to use this truth as a way to impact our community. We can't change people, only God can. We can't save people, only God can.

ITA people are on different levels in their Christian walk...they can be a Carnal Christian, a Natural Christian and a Spiritual Christian.

But in Revelation, God says he will spit one who is lukewarm - neither hot nor cold -- from his mouth.

Lukewarm is one who knows better just can't seem to make up their mind whether to serve God or the devil and at times go in /out, based on how they feel at any given moment in life and can be in torment because of this. God will always take them back should they repent. But until they decide to give their life fully to God, they are lukewarm.

I don't like these labels because we don't have a ruler with dashes for each of these labels that tells us which we are... We are all sinners, we are all saved... WE ALL HAVE PROBLEMS...
This makes Christianity seem like a caste system, and I think so many believers like that because of a desire for status and authority... That's why I don't like labels like that.

 

[music-bnatural-smile]

I agree. Along with adultery and divorce.

I just find it odd that America was brought up on Christian values, yet, divorce and abortion are legalized. erplexed

I also wish fornication and adultery were spoken against more. It seems like these two sins are more condoned in the world, even among Christians.

These things are legalized because of the foundations of this country. We must remember, God gave us freedom of choice. That is a GIGANTIC part of Christianity. We have to choose to believe. Likewise, we can choose not to. This country would not be what it is if we didn't have basic human rights. We as Christians can't walk around imposing our beliefs on everyone. That goes against our own religion. Making things illegal won't change the sin. The problem is the sin, not the law. Unfortunately many Christians don't want to put in the work to counsel those around us and help those around us by giving them the nonjudgemental care that they need... We just want the law to take away people's rights. Its just like in Africa when they sew up the women's genitalia to MAKE THEM sexually pure... And we all know how problematic this thinking is.
God does not MAKE us do anything. He can, but he gives us a choice. And we have to stop thinking that we can MAKE each other act right, because we can't. We can only pray that God's influence will have its way. And that's of course his decision to make.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

Divorce is not always a sin...thereby...hermeutics and interpretation of that issue. The church began allowing it as a response of mercy to those whose marriages were malformed...missing elements that would have made it a holy, valid marital union. If done for selfish reasons in a valid marriage, yes, it is sinful if one party desires to leave their valid spouse for another. If done because the church has allowed you mercy in the situation aforementioned, then it is not (annulment). Either way, if there is a valid union that is not working and there is reason to separate (abuse, adultery, homosexuality etc), then the parties remain married but separate, for life. G-d doesn't cure everything, including a mean spouse. Sometimes, there is need for a separation and if not reconciliable, then it's permanent. G-d will not force anybody to do right and some people exercise this gift in free will to the extreme for life.

 

[SND411]

These things are legalized because of the foundations of this country. We must remember, God gave us freedom of choice. That is a GIGANTIC part of Christianity. We have to choose to believe. Likewise, we can choose not to. This country would not be what it is if we didn't have basic human rights. We as Christians can't walk around imposing our beliefs on everyone. That goes against our own religion. Making things illegal won't change the sin. The problem is the sin, not the law. Unfortunately many Christians don't want to put in the work to counsel those around us and help those around us by giving them the nonjudgemental care that they need... We just want the law to take away people's rights. Its just like in Africa when they sew up the women's genitalia to MAKE THEM sexually pure... And we all know how problematic this thinking is.
God does not MAKE us do anything. He can, but he gives us a choice. And we have to stop thinking that we can MAKE each other act right, because we can't. We can only pray that God's influence will have its way. And that's of course his decision to make.

Also, I'm sorry but almost every country run by "religious values" ie, theocratic, becomes corrupt. Even God said this when the ancient Israelites wanted a human king. The only Kingdom truly run by righteousness that will ever fail is the Kingdom of God with Christ as King.

We should not expect to look at our worldly government to see Truth, but towards the Heavens instead. And quite frankly, I never viewed Christianity as a religion that is meant to be promoted by any government whatsoever.

 

[SND411]

Divorce is not always a sin...thereby...hermeutics and interpretation of that issue. The church began allowing it as a response of mercy to those whose marriages were malformed...missing elements that would have made it a holy, valid marital union. If done for selfish reasons in a valid marriage, yes, it is sinful if one party desires to leave their valid spouse for another. If done because the church has allowed you mercy in the situation aforementioned, then it is not (annulment). Either way, if there is a valid union that is not working and there is reason to separate (abuse, adultery, homosexuality etc), then the parties remain married but separate, for life. G-d doesn't cure everything, including a mean spouse. Sometimes, there is need for a separation and if not reconciliable, then it's permanent. G-d will not force anybody to do right and some people exercise this gift in free will to the extreme for life.

I think it is okay to be seperated, but never okay to divorce and remarry if the opther partner is still alive.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

Also, I'm sorry but almost every country run by "religious values" ie, theocratic, becomes corrupt. Even God said this when the ancient Israelites wanted a human king. The only Kingdom truly run by righteousness that will ever fail is the Kingdom of God with Christ as King.

We should not expect to look at our worldly government to see Truth, but towards the Heavens instead. And quite frankly, I never viewed Christianity as a religion that is meant to be promoted by any government whatsoever.

But wouldn't that be a government run by religious values? Somehow, righteousness must be gauged by actions, hence religious values.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

I think it is okay to be seperated, but never okay to divorce and remarry if the opther partner is still alive.

\

That's where I'm glad to be catholic and protected. Mercy is valued whereas the alternative is condemnation to live alone forever. Again, I'm talking about valid unions.

 

[SND411]

But wouldn't that be a government run by religious values? Somehow, righteousness must be gauged by actions, hence religious values.

What I mean is that no government on Earth should be expected to truly represent the Kingdom of God.

 

[Poohbear]

The problem of this is the degree and level to which you want to speak about intolerance... Does intolerance mean disagreeing, or does it mean walking up to everyone who is sinning and telling them that they are going to hell...
When I say tolerance I mean to realize what we can't change and to use this truth as a way to impact our community. We can't change people, only God can. We can't save people, only God can.



I don't like these labels because we don't have a ruler with dashes for each of these labels that tells us which we are... We are all sinners, we are all saved... WE ALL HAVE PROBLEMS...
This makes Christianity seem like a caste system, and I think so many believers like that because of a desire for status and authority... That's why I don't like labels like that.

I agree. This is one thing some Christians need to realize is that ONLY GOD CAN change people and save people. All we can do is share with people the word of God and our experiences and pray for them. We cannot force people or intimidate people or scare people into changing their ways or believing in God. That takes away from God's glory and omnipotence.

 

[Poohbear]

These things are legalized because of the foundations of this country. We must remember, God gave us freedom of choice. That is a GIGANTIC part of Christianity. We have to choose to believe. Likewise, we can choose not to. This country would not be what it is if we didn't have basic human rights. We as Christians can't walk around imposing our beliefs on everyone. That goes against our own religion. Making things illegal won't change the sin. The problem is the sin, not the law. Unfortunately many Christians don't want to put in the work to counsel those around us and help those around us by giving them the nonjudgemental care that they need... We just want the law to take away people's rights. Its just like in Africa when they sew up the women's genitalia to MAKE THEM sexually pure... And we all know how problematic this thinking is.
God does not MAKE us do anything. He can, but he gives us a choice. And we have to stop thinking that we can MAKE each other act right, because we can't. We can only pray that God's influence will have its way. And that's of course his decision to make.

I realize that God gave us the freedom of choice and to make decisions in this life. I just made that statement earlier as a way to point out the rhetorical question of "Why are some sins okay, allowed, condoned, or legalized while others are not?" And I agree that the problem is sin, however, I also see a problem with the law as well. I know there are man-made laws and God-made laws, but if people shouldn't impose beliefs on people, why should the law impose beliefs?

I think it's sad that some Christians don't want to take the time to help other people out, but at the same time, some of those people who we think need help don't want our help too. For example, I'm sure we all have heard people feeling sorry for homeless people and wonder why no one tries to help them. Well guess what? There are some homeless people who choose to be homeless and rather be homeless than to be living in a shelter or transformation house or family home where there are rules and restrictions. Some rather have freedom on the streets over comfort in a shelter with other people.

And I agree that God does not make us do anything and that we can't make each other act right either. God is in control and allows things to happen. All we can do is pray as well as being a positive role model for people around us.

 

[music-bnatural-smile]

I realize that God gave us the freedom of choice and to make decisions in this life. I just made that statement earlier as a way to point out the rhetorical question of "Why are some sins okay, allowed, condoned, or legalized while others are not?" And I agree that the problem is sin, however, I also see a problem with the law as well. I know there are man-made laws and God-made laws, but if people shouldn't impose beliefs on people, why should the law impose beliefs?

I think it's sad that some Christians don't want to take the time to help other people out, but at the same time, some of those people who we think need help don't want our help too. For example, I'm sure we all have heard people feeling sorry for homeless people and wonder why no one tries to help them. Well guess what? There are some homeless people who choose to be homeless and rather be homeless than to be living in a shelter or transformation house or family home where there are rules and restrictions. Some rather have freedom on the streets over comfort in a shelter with other people.

And I agree that God does not make us do anything and that we can't make each other act right either. God is in control and allows things to happen. All we can do is pray as well as being a positive role model for people around us.

This is so true... i think also God doesn't want us to overburden ourselves with the sins of others... That homeless guy, we can always give him a bottle of water and a sandwich, even if he won't go to his family or whoever and try to clean himself up...
Its the same with the unsaved folk in our life... The gay cousin... we can always be nice to him and show him love... The kid that got an abortion in their family... We can comfort them and show them that they don't have to be blacklisted because of their decision...
There is such a balance to make and I think a lot of our difficulty as black women is very cultural... Many of us were raised in houses without a lot of grace... i don't see a lot (I'm not saying there aren't any) of Christian black households where you can "come back to the cross"
A lot of our parents believe in tough love, and many people only live by example... We try to "tough love" the world...
I have had to try very hard to overcome this... and God made sure that he humbled my heart with my own situations... And I am helping him work on my parents too...
While tough love can cause growth, it can also bring pain if redemption isn't shown...

 

[Laela]

Well, let's look at the meaning of "Tolerance"
1 : capacity to endure pain or hardship : endurance, fortitude, stamina
2 a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something : toleration

As you can see, this all has nothing to do with a person, but rather actions/beliefs/thoughts. Basically I can (and should) love everyone; but if my beliefs are in conflict with someone's or they disregard or show no respect to my beliefs, our human relationship can only go so far. That is not to say I don't love them, for it would be ungodly of me to hate someone because of their beliefs/principles. Just as someone has a right to live how they choose to live, I have the right choose to be friends/create relationships with whom I choose. Granted, there are times the Spirit of God will lead us to cross paths with others who don't share the same faith or beliefs. This happens all the time. But Christians have rights, too, when it comes to relationships...

Nevertheless, do you have Agape love in your heart for everyone, in spite of who they are or what they do? I'm sure you still love the "hypocrites" at your church, right? I hope so. A child of God loves people, period.

You are correct, only God can change/save anyone. With God's help, I can look past insults and injuries to my person. But I won't compromise on my beliefs and the Word of God. That's not an effort to change anyone but more an effort to obey God. I WILL love a gay person. No problem there, esp if they're a nice person. But I WILL NOT condone or encourage their lifestyle. The Word condemns, not me. There is a stark difference, and I hope you can see that.

The problem of this is the degree and level to which you want to speak about intolerance... Does intolerance mean disagreeing, or does it mean walking up to everyone who is sinning and telling them that they are going to hell...
When I say tolerance I mean to realize what we can't change and to use this truth as a way to impact our community. We can't change people, only God can. We can't save people, only God can.

Ah, Music, I respect your opinion on labels..but that won't change the fact that not everyone is in the same place spiritually. The results in people's lives is proof of this. This explains how some Christians can get blessings all the time and others never do.

Maturity in Christ requires growth and some Christians are more mature in Christ than others because of the effort/work they put into their walk. Some are able to hear from God, others can't. Some pray fervently, all hours of the day, at any time, some don't pray at all, except for when they go to church.

Some read their Bible and meditate on the Word so it's implanted in their heart, some just read the Bible because they feel the "have to". There is a BIG GINORMOUS difference between reading the Word -- which takes little effort - and understanding it -- which take a lot of effort and a lot of time. Not everyone puts in the same effort toward their Christian walk. But with all that said, that DOES NOT make one Christian more saved or better than another and you seem to be stuck on this misconception.
You use the "Christian" label all the time to address the issue of hypocrisy..but of course, those who aren't or try their best not to be, get labeled as such anyway.

Whether a student is in the 1st grade, 9th grade, or college...they're still a student. Please look past the labeling and try to understand what it is I'm saying about growth in Christ.... that's my point.

I don't like these labels because we don't have a ruler with dashes for each of these labels that tells us which we are... We are all sinners, we are all saved... WE ALL HAVE PROBLEMS...
This makes Christianity seem like a caste system, and I think so many believers like that because of a desire for status and authority... That's why I don't like labels like that.

 

[music-bnatural-smile]

Well, let's look at the meaning of "Tolerance"
1 : capacity to endure pain or hardship : endurance, fortitude, stamina
2 a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something : toleration

As you can see, this all has nothing to do with a person, but rather actions/beliefs/thoughts. Basically I can (and should) love everyone; but if my beliefs are in conflict with someone's or they disregard or show no respect to my beliefs, our human relationship can only go so far. That is not to say I don't love them, for it would be ungodly of me to hate someone because of their beliefs/principles. Just as someone has a right to live how they choose to live, I have the right choose to be friends/create relationships with whom I choose. Granted, there are times the Spirit of God will lead us to cross paths with others who don't share the same faith or beliefs. This happens all the time. But Christians have rights, too, when it comes to relationships...

Nevertheless, do you have Agape love in your heart for everyone, in spite of who they are or what they do? I'm sure you still love the "hypocrites" at your church, right? I hope so. A child of God loves people, period.

You are correct, only God can change/save anyone. With God's help, I can look past insults and injuries to my person. But I won't compromise on my beliefs and the Word of God. That's not an effort to change anyone but more an effort to obey God. I WILL love a gay person. No problem there, esp if they're a nice person. But I WILL NOT condone or encourage their lifestyle. The Word condemns, not me. There is a stark difference, and I hope you can see that.

Ah, Music, I respect your opinion on labels..but that won't change the fact that not everyone is in the same place spiritually. The results in people's lives is proof of this. This explains how some Christians can get blessings all the time and others never do.

Maturity in Christ requires growth and some Christians are more mature in Christ than others because of the effort/work they put into their walk. Some are able to hear from God, others can't. Some pray fervently, all hours of the day, at any time, some don't pray at all, except for when they go to church.

Some read their Bible and meditate on the Word so it's implanted in their heart, some just read the Bible because they feel the "have to". There is a BIG GINORMOUS difference between reading the Word -- which takes little effort - and understanding it -- which take a lot of effort and a lot of time. Not everyone puts in the same effort toward their Christian walk. But with all that said, that DOES NOT make one Christian more saved or better than another and you seem to be stuck on this misconception.
You use the "Christian" label all the time to address the issue of hypocrisy..but of course, those who aren't or try their best not to be, get labeled as such anyway.

Whether a student is in the 1st grade, 9th grade, or college...they're still a student. Please look past the labeling and try to understand what it is I'm saying about growth in Christ.... that's my point.

I just don't understand why there's always talk about who is hearing God and who isn't... who is trying and who isn't... The things you listed are actions, and we can never know the intent behind the actions... I know many people who "pray" all day just cuz they saw their momma do it... My new testament prof. read and understood the bible all day, but he denies Christ fervently... Why so much emphasis on the actions and not the heart? And I know you can only speak for yourself on this one, I'm not asking for like all of Christianity, but just for you and anyone else who always places emphasis on signs of growth...

And about your obedience to God and compromising your beliefs... How is respecting others compromising? And I don't think you meant to say that you wouldn't respect people, it just seems like people use that phrase to make it ok to say whatever they want to people that are living in the sins we hate (fornication, gayness, etc.)
I said the sins we hate, cuz we rarely say anything to rude people that are Christians, or to the Christians that don't talk to their family members that are non-believers... many of us give them a pass... Even though they, like everyone, is CLEARLY living in sin...

And about the blessings explain to me Jay Z and Beyonce... That is all I need to say about that. There are many people who live HARD lives yet act out what you call growth and obedience. God doesn't pick blessings just because you acted right in public... Really we don't know why... Who can really know his ways? So as far as creating a gradient for blessings... I REALLY don't agree with that... thats kindof over the top.

With all do respect, I think that looking around and checking for maturity in everyone is one of the lesser mature things a Christian can do... Ted Haggard was a pastor of a mega church! Such a role only a mature Christian can have right? His mature self was quite gay wasn't he... And his family... They are blessed in many ways!

I think that measurements and blessing counting and all of that is a distraction to Christ and is a fallacious thought pattern... And somewhat elitist at that...

I'm really not trying to be rude either cuz I think you're great... and I'm glad you responded to my post

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

What I mean is that no government on Earth should be expected to truly represent the Kingdom of God.

I fully understand. The government is not the microcosm but the human family is. I know. We can only hope for the day when all is under Messiah. May that day come speedily!!

 

[momi]

Well, let's look at the meaning of "Tolerance"
1 : capacity to endure pain or hardship : endurance, fortitude, stamina
2 a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something : toleration

As you can see, this all has nothing to do with a person, but rather actions/beliefs/thoughts. Basically I can (and should) love everyone; but if my beliefs are in conflict with someone's or they disregard or show no respect to my beliefs, our human relationship can only go so far. That is not to say I don't love them, for it would be ungodly of me to hate someone because of their beliefs/principles.





Ah, Music, I respect your opinion on labels..but that won't change the fact that not everyone is in the same place spiritually. The results in people's lives is proof of this. This explains how some Christians can get blessings all the time and others never do.

Maturity in Christ requires growth and some Christians are more mature in Christ than others because of the effort/work they put into their walk. Some are able to hear from God, others can't. Some pray fervently, all hours of the day, at any time, some don't pray at all, except for when they go to church.

Some read their Bible and meditate on the Word so it's implanted in their heart, some just read the Bible because they feel the "have to". There is a BIG GINORMOUS difference between reading the Word -- which takes little effort - and understanding it -- which take a lot of effort and a lot of time. Not everyone puts in the same effort toward their Christian walk. But with all that said, that DOES NOT make one Christian more saved or better than another and you seem to be stuck on this misconception.
You use the "Christian" label all the time to address the issue of hypocrisy..but of course, those who aren't or try their best not to be, get labeled as such anyway.

Whether a student is in the 1st grade, 9th grade, or college...they're still a student. Please look past the labeling and try to understand what it is I'm saying about growth in Christ.... that's my point.

Amen. I completely agree... especially with the bolded.

 

[Laela]

Hmm.. I'm not emphasizing signs of growth, just stating that all Christians aren't the same. We are all individuals in Christ and our relationship with him is unique.

I just don't understand why there's always talk about who is hearing God and who isn't... who is trying and who isn't... The things you listed are actions, and we can never know the intent behind the actions... I know many people who "pray" all day just cuz they saw their momma do it... My new testament prof. read and understood the bible all day, but he denies Christ fervently... Why so much emphasis on the actions and not the heart? And I know you can only speak for yourself on this one, I'm not asking for like all of Christianity, but just for you and anyone else who always places emphasis on signs of growth...

It isn't... you seem to think so. I can respectfully tell others of my faith.. You know, I can witness to someone and tell them what the Bible says because I believe it, and not be obnoxious or beligerant about it and they would STILL will be offended. The Word itself is an offense.

And about your obedience to God and compromising your beliefs... How is respecting others compromising? And I don't think you meant to say that you wouldn't respect people, it just seems like people use that phrase to make it ok to say whatever they want to people that are living in the sins we hate (fornication, gayness, etc.)
I said the sins we hate, cuz we rarely say anything to rude people that are Christians, or to the Christians that don't talk to their family members that are non-believers... many of us give them a pass... Even though they, like everyone, is CLEARLY living in sin...

Now, see I never said blessings is just material riches. Blessings aren't just material riches...one can be blessed in many ways. A person can get favors from others through their obedience to God and their faith (works): For example, an approved mortgage or loan; A baby that was prayed for, a reuniting with a loved one, ...that's what I mean by blessings. But it's one thing when God blesses Man with material wealth and it's another when Man acquires it on his own. So of course, unsaved folks can be "blessed".

The Word says seek ye first the kingdom of God AND his righteousness and all these things shall be added on to you. That means being saved is a blessing unto itself. Riches and Wealth aren't the same thing. Someone who isn't rich materialistically can enjoy a wealthy life in Christ, because the blessings come in all forms and are the benefits of seeking him first.

And about the blessings explain to me Jay Z and Beyonce... That is all I need to say about that. There are many people who live HARD lives yet act out what you call growth and obedience. God doesn't pick blessings just because you acted right in public... Really we don't know why... Who can really know his ways? So as far as creating a gradient for blessings... I REALLY don't agree with that... thats kindof over the top.

With all do respect, I think that looking around and checking for maturity in everyone is one of the lesser mature things a Christian can do... Ted Haggard was a pastor of a mega church! Such a role only a mature Christian can have right? His mature self was quite gay wasn't he... And his family... They are blessed in many ways!

I think that measurements and blessing counting and all of that is a distraction to Christ and is a fallacious thought pattern... And somewhat elitist at that...

We are all growing in Christ... no matter where we are in the Church. My pastor has a large congregation yet is always humble to say he's still learning and growing in Christ. Maturity to me doesn't mean one has peaked, but has grown. I have seen growth in my own life and those of others I know. When the Spirit is working on us, we tend to shed the old man...however long it takes. The Laela two years ago wouldn't have had the amount patience of the Laela today.

About that minister, I try not to judge anyone....I spoke generically, so I am in no postion to say he's mature in Christ just because he's a minister.

With all do respect, I think that looking around and checking for maturity in everyone is one of the lesser mature things a Christian can do... Ted Haggard was a pastor of a mega church! Such a role only a mature Christian can have right? His mature self was quite gay wasn't he... And his family... They are blessed in many ways!

I think that measurements and blessing counting and all of that is a distraction to Christ and is a fallacious thought pattern... And somewhat elitist at that...

I know you're not being rude... If we understand each other, we'll get past the misconceptions and perceptions. I like that you ask the toughest questions..makes my head hurt, but I'll try to understand where you're coming from.

Amen and God bless...

I'm really not trying to be rude either cuz I think you're great... and I'm glad you responded to my post

 

[daydreem2876]

I think the labels "conservative christian" and "liberal christian" are just a marketing ploy used by politicians in order to push their respective agendas because it is easier to question one's dedication to walking in the path of Christ to gain support than to argue the facts and do what is socially responsible as a matter of law for the greater good. There is a separation of church and state in this country for a reason. I honestly believe that as Christians, we, for far too long, have allowed the state to define what our faith should look like.

Those who choose to be, are all Christians. How one choose to make that walk is up to the individual. Who are we to judge the path of another in this walk. I may not agree with you, like what you do, or approve of your choices but I respect your the others choice to do it. As a Christian, I am going to love you, pray for you, and if God so tells me, I will embrace you.

 

[music-bnatural-smile]

Laela...

Tru tru...

I am glad we can disagree this way because I'm hoping we are learning from each other

Its nice to me that you can state your point with grace and without calling someone a tool for the devil... that is an awesome trait of yours... As Christians we should all learn how to disagree more gracefully without showing defensiveness and self-righteousness... and thank you because you do it every time i come over here! People need to follow your lead

For me, I am just so careful about the "Christian" things I say because I am around nonbelievers and I have hurt people and discouraged people from Christ by being so defiant, so when I feel like I have seen it in someone, I have to respond... At the same time too I sometimes lack the adamance in my belief that you display... Its a tough balance...
But its also hard to show the truth in what you mean online... so really we all could be on the same page and not even know it... Communication is funny...

Anyways, Thanks Laela

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

As you can see, this all has nothing to do with a person, but rather actions/beliefs/thoughts. Basically I can (and should) love everyone; but if my beliefs are in conflict with someone's or they disregard or show no respect to my beliefs, our human relationship can only go so far. That is not to say I don't love them, for it would be ungodly of me to hate someone because of their beliefs/principles.


Ah, Music, I respect your opinion on labels..but that won't change the fact that not everyone is in the same place spiritually. The results in people's lives is proof of this. This explains how some Christians can get blessings all the time and others never do.


Some read their Bible and meditate on the Word so it's implanted in their heart, some just read the Bible because they feel the "have to". There is a BIG GINORMOUS difference between reading the Word -- which takes little effort - and understanding it -- which take a lot of effort and a lot of time. Not everyone puts in the same effort toward their Christian walk.

Good points. My issue is this, no one has yet given their view of liberal christianity aside from mentioning homosexuality or abortion. It's a much deeper issue because liberal christians can and do hold to orthodox or traditional beliefs of the faith. What are the exact specifics everyone is talking about devoid of sexual sin?

Regarding scripture and the christian walk and growing deeper in it, I think that's largely subjective to individual interpretation according to many beliefs here on this list. And to the bolded, I'd say that G-d blesses everyone, with air, water, sun, both good and bad to help them grow. Waking up in the morning is a tremendous blessing. Having material things or promotions and whatnot...just material things. I'm reminded of people living generation through generation in third world poverty but exhibiting great faith and graces. Graces are blessings. I'd think that if one received spiritual gifts, those would outweigh a million to one or higher physical blessings. I'm not sure which blessings you were referring to.

Hey ladies, give a list of which acts they consider to be liberal christianity (no sexual sin or abortion).

I'll start:

Casual dress
Women not covering their heads in sanctuary
Women sitting next to men in sanctuary
Women becoming pastors
Men and women allowed to remarry who committed adultery against a spouse in a valid marital union (not all marriages are valid...I've explained that one before)
Kissing children during the service (it's not allowable in orthodoxy...kisses and external shows of affections are reserved for Christ)
Working on Sunday...or not strictly observing the Sabbath
Men swimming with women in a public pool
??Not sure so correct me if I'm wrong...but doctrines such as where the Holy Spirit proceeds from, the Father and the Son or from the Father


Can somebody add to this any specifics they consider to be liberal christianity????? Beliefs or actions.

 

[SND411]

Good points. My issue is this, no one has yet given their view of liberal christianity aside from mentioning homosexuality or abortion. It's a much deeper issue because liberal christians can and do hold to orthodox or traditional beliefs of the faith. What are the exact specifics everyone is talking about devoid of sexual sin?

Regarding scripture and the christian walk and growing deeper in it, I think that's largely subjective to individual interpretation according to many beliefs here on this list. And to the bolded, I'd say that G-d blesses everyone, with air, water, sun, both good and bad to help them grow. Waking up in the morning is a tremendous blessing. Having material things or promotions and whatnot...just material things. I'm reminded of people living generation through generation in third world poverty but exhibiting great faith and graces. Graces are blessings. I'd think that if one received spiritual gifts, those would outweigh a million to one or higher physical blessings. I'm not sure which blessings you were referring to.

Hey ladies, give a list of which acts they consider to be liberal christianity (no sexual sin or abortion).

I'll start:

Casual dress
Women not covering their heads in sanctuary
Women sitting next to men in sanctuary
Women becoming pastors
Men and women allowed to remarry who committed adultery against a spouse in a valid marital union (not all marriages are valid...I've explained that one before)
Kissing children during the service (it's not allowable in orthodoxy...kisses and external shows of affections are reserved for Christ)
Working on Sunday...or not strictly observing the Sabbath
Men swimming with women in a public pool
??Not sure so correct me if I'm wrong...but doctrines such as where the Holy Spirit proceeds from, the Father and the Son or from the Father


Can somebody add to this any specifics they consider to be liberal christianity????? Beliefs or actions.

Notice how many of these things are based on what women should or should not do....

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

why did this double???

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

Notice how many of these things are based on what women should or should not do....

Because those are tangible differences that have been made in the Church from the ancient model to now. I noticed it too. We just keep on throwing out that term "liberal" without providing concrete examples. How will we know what was orthodox and representative of the true faith before "liberalism" if we don't provide the actual practices of the body in the Church, home and worship?

Can you provide any you can think of to add to the list?

Thinking of ...I can and it's a biggie. The Eucharist! Whether it is the body (host) and blood (wine) of Christ and whether it is reinterpreted not to be. Also, regarding the sacrifice, facing the altar as opposed to facing the congregation during the consecration. Removing the Ark (holding the consecrated hosts or Body of Christ) from behind the altar and putting it to the side as a response to people not bowing to Christ when they enter the Church...and other irreverent behaviors going on these days in the service. That's liberalism.

C'mon ladies.....anything in your neck of the woods? Is it a feeling? A belief? A practice???

 

[prettynatural]

I see where you are coming from GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I and for the most part, I agree.

If we were to look at our practices and study the theology and religion as a whole, we can see in the west, particularly in the bible belt, where I live, the practices are extremely cultural and "liberal". Does that mean it is a bad thing? I don't suppose so. I can see a positive as to where people are able to express their spirituality in the confines of their culture. I do have an issues that the "liberals" in context of not keeping with the ancient traditions tend to view their brand as superior and only righteous. I also, feel that Christ spoke out about all of the religiousness that the Jews had and not being in the Spirit. So, it can both both ways. If we concentrate on all of the technical things, bowing down, facing the alter etc then we can loose sight of our purpose for fellowship and worship.

Also, I believe that when people read the word they must understand history and culture of the time for when the bible was written.

 

[Poohbear]

Good points. My issue is this, no one has yet given their view of liberal christianity aside from mentioning homosexuality or abortion. It's a much deeper issue because liberal christians can and do hold to orthodox or traditional beliefs of the faith. What are the exact specifics everyone is talking about devoid of sexual sin?

Regarding scripture and the christian walk and growing deeper in it, I think that's largely subjective to individual interpretation according to many beliefs here on this list. And to the bolded, I'd say that G-d blesses everyone, with air, water, sun, both good and bad to help them grow. Waking up in the morning is a tremendous blessing. Having material things or promotions and whatnot...just material things. I'm reminded of people living generation through generation in third world poverty but exhibiting great faith and graces. Graces are blessings. I'd think that if one received spiritual gifts, those would outweigh a million to one or higher physical blessings. I'm not sure which blessings you were referring to.

Hey ladies, give a list of which acts they consider to be liberal christianity (no sexual sin or abortion).

I'll start:

Casual dress
Women not covering their heads in sanctuary
Women sitting next to men in sanctuary
Women becoming pastors
Men and women allowed to remarry who committed adultery against a spouse in a valid marital union (not all marriages are valid...I've explained that one before)
Kissing children during the service (it's not allowable in orthodoxy...kisses and external shows of affections are reserved for Christ)
Working on Sunday...or not strictly observing the Sabbath
Men swimming with women in a public pool
??Not sure so correct me if I'm wrong...but doctrines such as where the Holy Spirit proceeds from, the Father and the Son or from the Father


Can somebody add to this any specifics they consider to be liberal christianity????? Beliefs or actions.

Thanks! This is what I was really looking for in this thread. What makes you a Liberal Christian and what makes you a Conservative Christian? I know the terms really don't matter since both groups are Christians but what practices, beliefs, or actions make you liberal or conservative?

Here are some other things I have read about Liberal Christians:

*They are comfortable with ambiguity and diversity

*They see the Bible as a witness to revelation, or generally inspired, rather than completely inspired in all its parts

*They are quick to point out that the falleness and imperfection of its human authors and gives the Bible an imperfect quality and authority


*They do not look for "miracles" to confirm the existence of God

*They feel that faith in God allows one to see the Spirit moving in the everyday stuff of life

*They believe in universal salvation

*Liberal Christian tend to be found in the following denominations: American Baptist Churches, USA; Disciples of Christ; Episcopal Church; Evangelical Lutheran Church in America; Presbyterian Church, USA; United Church of Christ, and the United Methodist Church. The Unitarian Universalist Association and the Metropolitan Community Churches are even more liberally minded.