Consequences...

[victorious]

This issue has been on my mind for a few days. Here's what happened at my brother's church recently:

Jane (21) and John (22) have been dating for a while. Jane sings with the choir, and John is an usher. Their parents are well known, active members at the church also.

Jane and John had pre-marital sex, and Jane got pregnant. The pastor met with the couple and their parents for counselling. The couple had to confess their sin to the congregation during service on a Sunday. After the couple confessed and cried, the Pastor prayed for them.

Jane is now home with the baby, and John attends church sometimes.

​

I understand that some pastors want to address this issue so others won't think it's ok to do. I thought it would have been better if the Pastor announced Jane 's pregnancy, briefly addressed their sin, stated that the couple is in counselling with him, and then asked the church to pray for them.

If Jane didn't get pregnant, they wouldn't have had to confess a thing before anyone. Their sin would have been hidden like everyone else's. That's what irked me. My mom said the unwed mother would get kicked out the church years ago. Pastors wouldn't even christen/bless the baby either.

I remember a similar incident at a church I attended when I was a teen. The unwed mom (19) was the niece of the Pastor, and she used to sing lead on the choir. After she had her baby, she sat at the back of the church and didn't return to ministry. She stopped attending church after two years or so (not sure if she ever returned).

Maybe I'm a little sensitve to the issue. I stopped attending church at 15 (my mom didn't force me to go anymore, and she didn't attend either). I had my daughter out of wedlock at 18. I visited a few churches before I turned 25, and then I accepted Christ as my savior after my birthday. I attend a non-denominational church now.

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Anyway...

- Did this issue arise at your church? If so, how was it handled?
- What were the consequences?
- Any other viewpoints or scriptural references?



Thanks in advance for your constructive input. (Sorry for the long post though. )

 

[PaperClip]

Anyway...

- Did this issue arise at your church? If so, how was it handled?
- What were the consequences?
- Any other viewpoints or scriptural references?

Thanks in advance for your constructive input. (Sorry for the long post though. )

I've seen this issue at my childhood church and my current church. I've been in the "holiness" church my whole life....

At my childhood church, the girls (not the guys) who got pregnant had to confess in front of the church. (My mom told me that if I got pregnant out of wedlock, I would not have to stand in front of the church, but I had better not get pregnant )

Anyway, in so many words, the church can only act on what they SEE or what the church (the pastor) has been TOLD. One cannot act on heresay, guessing, etc. My pastor says that he (and we all) obtain information through OBSERVATION, COMMUNICATION, and REVELATION. And even so, if the pastor comes to know, through divine revelation, that John and Jane are practicing fornication, and the pastor pulls them into the office and presents this before them, he really couldn't act on pulling them out of position unless/until John and/or Jane CONFESSES IT OPENLY. I think a wise pastor gives person SPACE to repent before the Lord themselves. One PROOF of fornication is THE PRODUCTION OF A BABY....

You know when people get called out or truly "embarrassed" by the church? It's when they just mess all over God's word and disobey God's word OPENLY and do what they want to do IN THE CHURCH and after a time, God's longsuffering runs out (but it doesn't really run out per se) but sometimes people have to get put on blast to get back on track. It's really about a personal relationship with the Lord. We have to answer DIRECTLY TO GOD for our actions, regardless of what the pastor does or does not say or do.

The consequences? One or both parties are removed from position until the appointed time of restoration. And I think the difference is ONGOING PRACTICE vs. a ONE-TIME SLIP-UP. In the slip-up, the couple could have gone to the pastor and confessed and the pastor would have either allowed them to remain in place because they did repent or they would have to step down. Maybe the pastor would or would not mention it to the congregation...it would depend.

The main point is to preserve the congregation and be consistent in the message that sin cannot be tolerated by anybody, including those in leadership. The fornication, not the pregnancy, is the sin. The baby did not ask to be conceived or born.

1 Timothy 5:20-21
20Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

21I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

The Message Translation

20If anyone falls into sin, call that person on the carpet. Those who are inclined that way will know right off they can't get by with it.
21-23God and Jesus and angels all back me up in these instructions. Carry them out without favoritism, without taking sides. Don't appoint people to church leadership positions too hastily. If a person is involved in some serious sins, you don't want to become an unwitting accomplice. In any event, keep a close check on yourself. And don't worry too much about what the critics will say.

Galatians 6:1-3

1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

2Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
3For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

(The Message Translation)
1-3 Live creatively, friends. If someone falls into sin, forgivingly restore him, saving your critical comments for yourself. You might be needing forgiveness before the day's out. Stoop down and reach out to those who are oppressed. Share their burdens, and so complete Christ's law. If you think you are too good for that, you are badly deceived.

 

[victorious]

Thanks for replying RR!

You know when people get called out or truly "embarrassed" by the church? It's when they just mess all over God's word and disobey God's word OPENLY and do what they want to do IN THE CHURCH and after a time, God's longsuffering runs out (but it doesn't really run out per se) but sometimes people have to get put on blast to get back on track.

I agree.

The unwed mother gets put on blast because her sin couldn't be hidden. Yet the few that judge her can keep their sins hidden. But their truth comes out one way or the other.

It's really about a personal relationship with the Lord. We have to answer DIRECTLY TO GOD for our actions, regardless of what the pastor does or does not say or do.

I also like the points you made about restoration in conjunction with Galations 6. Sometimes there's a stigma on the unwed mother/father that hinders restoration. It keeps them sitting at the back of the church (if they still attend). Even when their children get older, those mothers won't participate in ministry.

Few years ago, some people had an issue with a baby shower for an unwed mother at our church. The unwed mother didn't confess before the congregation; but I remember her crying at the altar during altar call one Sunday, and two people prayed with her. She attended church with her baby for a while, but she doesn't attend anymore. I see her once in a while.

 

[crlsweetie912]

What about forgiveness?
I don't think this is right, but I have heard that it was the practice a while ago and I didn't know that it was still being done.
Sad, because this can push some people out of the church and maybe further away from Christ.

 

[MrsHouston]

What about forgiveness?
I don't think this is right, but I have heard that it was the practice a while ago and I didn't know that it was still being done.
Sad, because this can push some people out of the church and maybe further away from Christ.

I agree. Repentance and Forgiveness should go hand in hand.

I think it comes to the point where "religious" people only care about the things they see or what might be an embarrassment to the church. Most people know that their teens are having sex already, but do they "bring" them in for counseling with the minister....?

 

[firecracker]

I agree. Repentance and Forgiveness should go hand in hand.

I think it comes to the point where "religious" people only care about the things they see or what might be an embarrassment to the church. Most people know that their teens are having sex already, but do they "bring" them in for counseling with the minister....?

I agree with this post. On one hand I don't want folks to be unaccountable but on another hand I don't want folks to be publically shamed just because they have been caught.
All the while other sinning folk doing worst just sitting there judging away.

I kinda/sorta like the Jehovah's take on excommunicating til you own up, repent and forgiveness comes after.

Many churches today act like everything goes and is ok when things should be addressed.

 

[crlsweetie912]

Also, are you repenting to the church or to God?
I thought God was the one who judged?
Let he who is without sin..
???????????

 

[lexi08]

I became pregnant at 17. Eventhough I was married before my son was born, he was still conceived out of wedlock. My pastor couseled me of course and while he certainly did not condone my actions I was not made to feel that I was not welcome in church or that I had to walk around with my head down in shame. I was ashamed of myself though and I did not repeat the same mistake, I only have one child even 18 years later. My family was the worst..... my mom and family disowned me. I had no one. They were ashamed of me and my son for years and still are to some extent. My son is not treated like other children in the family. They would not speak to me for over 5 years because I had my son and this shamed the family. They only accpeted my son to some extent when he was older. I am still embarassed and ashamed today, I can't seem to shake these feelings. I don't like to go around my family even now. I have never been able to deal with this....

 

[Shimmie]

Also, are you repenting to the church or to God?
I thought God was the one who judged?
Let he who is without sin..
???????????

Crlsweetie, I agree with you here...

The word of God which He does chastise us, but we are also admonished about 'wounding' one another's spirits. Yes, there are times when an 'iron' hand must be applied, for today we have some issues that require such and we cannot afford 'lax' attitudes.

But there is something about the way we go about it. Paul shared that when one repents, we are to receive them in love...

The word also says that we are to go to our 'brother' (sister) in private and if they 'refuse' then we are to take it to the next level. Of course I'm paraphrasing scripture (not quoting verbatim...word for word), but the context is the same. We have to draw a line between compassion and shaming a person.

The Pregnancy speaks for itsself. The sin is fully exposed. Just go from there and heal them to restoration. Not all sin requires being shamed in open display. It creates a wall of shame between the one who sinned and his / her path to come back.

 

[EbonyEyes]

Well my mom had me out of wedlock when she was 23. When I was born, it was her grandmother (not any else in the church) that made her stand in front of the congregation and publically admit her sin. My mom told me that the whole congregation showed her so much love after her admittance that it was almost overwhelming. I personally can't remember anyone treating me badly because I was born out of wedlock. I believe I was shown just as much love as my younger sister who was born within a marriage.

A couple years ago, a reverend in my church who ocassionally preached sermons had a child out of wedlock. Some people were extremely upset with what he did. In fact, he was supposed to be the speaker a mini-service we have during the week and the pianist refused to play because he would be speaking. I don't know if he stood in front of the church and admitted his sin or not. Today, he leads the Young Adult Bible Study and works with his father in our prison ministry.

 

[Farida]

It is sad when people judge each other, it is one thing to advise someone that they made a mistake, but another to think of them as less than you are. I was raised Catholic and I went to this church where this woman was intentionally trying to seduce the very handsome young priest. She would always come to church bright and early to get the front pew, and wear tiny skirts and dresses and cross her legs so the man could get an eyeful while he tried to preach the word. She would ask for private counselling sessions and she dang near stalked the man. Eventually he fell, after decades of cellibacy, she tempted him and he fell. They ended up getting married and he left the priesthood, which is unacceptable in the church. The ex-priest his new wife and kids came to church every sunday but pple weren't very nice to them, esp to the woman because everyone blamed her for what happened.

I have seen places where people feel compelled to hide their daughters' pregnancy, sometimes even passing the kid of us the mother's child (the grandma) it is sad.

 

[EbonyEyes]

It is sad when people judge each other, it is one thing to advise someone that they made a mistake, but another to think of them as less than you are. I was raised Catholic and I went to this church where this woman was intentionally trying to seduce the very handsome young priest. She would always come to church bright and early to get the front pew, and wear tiny skirts and dresses and cross her legs so the man could get an eyeful while he tried to preach the word. She would ask for private counselling sessions and she dang near stalked the man. Eventually he fell, after decades of cellibacy, she tempted him and he fell. They ended up getting married and he left the priesthood, which is unacceptable in the church. The ex-priest his new wife and kids came to church every sunday but pple weren't very nice to them, esp to the woman because everyone blamed her for what happened.

I have seen places where people feel compelled to hide their daughters' pregnancy, sometimes even passing the kid of us the mother's child (the grandma) it is sad.

According to a friend of mine, her fiance has not spoken with any of his family in over 20 years and hates God. He found out when he was 16 that the woman he thought was his sister was his biological mother and the woman and man he thought was his mother and father were his biological grandmother and grandfather. His biological grandfather was a pastor and his teenage daughter had sex with a young man on the church piano (quite scandalous) and she got pregnant. They decided to pass the child off as the pastor's and first lady's son. My friend's fiance still hasn't forgiven any of this family for keeping the secret.

 

[PaperClip]

According to a friend of mine, her fiance has not spoken with any of his family in over 20 years and hates God. He found out when he was 16 that the woman he thought was his sister was his biological mother and the woman and man he thought was his mother and father were his biological grandmother and grandfather. His biological grandfather was a pastor and his teenage daughter had sex with a young man on the church piano (quite scandalous) and she got pregnant. They decided to pass the child off as the pastor's and first lady's son. My friend's fiance still hasn't forgiven any of this family for keeping the secret.

See, this is what's hurtful because GOD gets blamed for the actions of HUMAN BEINGS. Of course God did not direct these folk to deceive this young man about how he came on the planet and who his biological parents are. And it should be a big concern to your friend about marrying a man with such deep, intense relationship issues.

 

[cece22]

I agree with this post. On one hand I don't want folks to be unaccountable but on another hand I don't want folks to be publically shamed just because they have been caught.
All the while other sinning folk doing worst just sitting there judging away.

I kinda/sorta like the Jehovah's take on excommunicating til you own up, repent and forgiveness comes after.

Many churches today act like everything goes and is ok when things should be addressed.

With Jehovah's Witnesses you don't go before everyone. Just a body of elders to confess your sin and yes repentance is too God only. I'ts up to you to own up for your actions. Desrespectful outright sins against God are judged through the congregation elders in harmony with the scriptures. Ones practicing such sins are not to be communicated with they are expelled from the congregation. Unless they bring their heart back towards God then he forgives them thus they are restored. If you allow your sheep to believe their wrongful actions are ok. What type of shepard are you?

1 Corinthians 5: 9 -13

9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.

11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

ETA: This shows love from God

Hebrews 12: 5-8

5 And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons:

"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."[a]

7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?

8 If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.