Word from the Wise

[Dee_33]

For those that cond. then neutilize, what conditioner are you using?

Thanks

 

[Sistaslick]

will this happen even if you use heat?

Heat will help.

But that conditioner going on while the cuticles are naturally lifted their highest is going to offer the most benefit. The proteins will be able to bind to and reinforce deeper cuticle layers that way. But if you're still uncomfortable with that, you can close everything down, and then relift using the heat.

 

[Sistaslick]

For those that cond. then neutilize, what conditioner are you using?

Thanks

I use Aphogee 2 minute keratin reconstructor. Sometimes I mix in Joico K-Pac reconstructor. (Trying to use that one up.)

 

[newflowers]

As part of my last relaxer, I used the "mid-protein" step. I have the best hair of my life; I attribute part of that, a large part, to that step. Super strong, super soft hair is my result. I'd never heard of such a thing, but I will never relax nor allow any to relax my hair without that step ever again.

 

[newflowers]

I use Aphogee 2 minute keratin reconstructor. Sometimes I mix in Joico K-Pac reconstructor. (Trying to use that one up.)

How do you like the Joico K-pak?

 

[YoungWavey]

I use Aphogee 2 minute keratin reconstructor. Sometimes I mix in Joico K-Pac reconstructor. (Trying to use that one up.)

So rinse out relaxer then appy conditoner 3-5 mins rinse then neutralizing shampoo Check???

 

[Sistaslick]

So rinse out relaxer then appy conditoner 3-5 mins rinse then neutralizing shampoo Check???

Yep. Make sure you thoroughly rinse the relaxer, too there should be no active creme on your strands when you apply the conditioner. Apply the reconstructing conditioner for 3-5 mins, then rinse. Apply your neutralizing shampoo for 5 mins undisturbed as well, then begin rinsing until your color indicator produces white suds and bubbles.

 

[Sistaslick]

How do you like the Joico K-pak?

Hey!
It's okay, I just prefer the Aphogee. I've used the K-pac at other times and didn't really feel that it gave me the umph that others were getting. I love the smell of it though! I've always just been an Aphogee girl I guess.

 

[msjones]

Hey!
It's okay, I just prefer the Aphogee. I've used the K-pac at other times and didn't really feel that it gave me the umph that others were getting. I love the smell of it though! I've always just been an Aphogee girl I guess.

Hey Sistaslick! This may be slightly OT but here goes! I'm going to using the Mizani no-lye sensitive scalp tomorrow. I noticed that the Moisturefuse has wheat protein in it. Is this enough considering I did my wash last week with Mane n Tail poo and con, and did an Emergencee treatment 2 weeks before that? I kinda feel like the HEAVY protein from aphogee or emergencee again will give me locks like straw.

 

[YoungWavey]

Yep. Make sure you thoroughly rinse the relaxer, too there should be no active creme on your strands when you apply the conditioner. Apply the reconstructing conditioner for 3-5 mins, then rinse. Apply your neutralizing shampoo for 5 mins undisturbed as well, then begin rinsing until your color indicator produces white suds and bubbles.

thank you...i'll tell you how the results are tomorrow...thanks again

 

[Sistaslick]

Hey Sistaslick! This may be slightly OT but here goes! I'm going to using the Mizani no-lye sensitive scalp tomorrow. I noticed that the Moisturefuse has wheat protein in it. Is this enough considering I did my wash last week with Mane n Tail poo and con, and did an Emergencee treatment 2 weeks before that? I kinda feel like the HEAVY protein from aphogee or emergencee again will give me locks like straw.

Well, wheat protein is one of those really good moisture binding proteins. It'll increase elasticity rather than toughen up your strands. I have not personally used the moisturefuse, so I'm not sure how it does on an actual "feel test" but it sounds like it'll be gentle enough conditioning for use without sending you over the edge.

I usually suggest doing some kind of protein leading up to the relaxer, because a relaxer will pretty much attack that reinforcement. But you want it doing that rather than attacking your unprotected cuticle. Your MNT and Emergencee should have some pretty good protein conditioning for you going in, so I'd be confident with that.

I reallly think you'll be fine doing the middle protein step with the Moisturefuse. By the time the relaxer has penetrated to your cortex, you'll still want something for rebuilding and patching the cuticle up again on a deeper level. This is step will help keep your hair be able to hold onto the moisture you give it later on with your subsequent deep conditionings. I personally wouldn't leave this step out.

Now after the relaxer, everyone is going to be a little different. You might not need to have any protein for awhile since you've prepped yourself up so well beforehand. You really just have to assess your hair at each stage of the process. If you feel like you are in good shape protein wise, you can cut out protein at either one of those three points before, during, or after. Personally I wouldn't cut out the middle one because it really makes the biggest difference to me. HTH.

 

[Sistaslick]

thank you...i'll tell you how the results are tomorrow...thanks again

Yeah, let us know how it works out! Good luck!

 

[StrawberryQueen]

Did she tell you why you need to sit under the dryer for 10-15 minutes? :scratchch That's quite a long time to have conditioner on the hair if you are trying to bring the pH of your hair down enough to return the hair to normal. :scratchch



Yeah, most stylists say this (usually something more often though) because they have bills to pay.

Co-sign.

 

[Seeking8Rights]

I wish i would have seen this sooner. I can't wait until Dec.(when i get my third touch-up for the year) so i can use Mizani lye relaxers...Just one question with using a conditioner first does it have to be a neutralizing conditoner or just a regular conditioner then a neutralizing shampoo???

During our conversation she did say that it is best to rinse the relaxer out, condition under a dryer for about 10 minutes and then neutralize. This is actually the process Affirm takes (she doesn't like Affirm, but does the same with the brand she uses on her clients).

Since this post, I have decided to get go lye all the way. And I'm no longer going to go past 10 weeks or self relax. When I stepped into my dear Fredrico's shop (down in Naples, he is the one who did my first lye relaxer back in 2005), I asked him to look at my hair and tell me what he thinks about the condition. I didn't mention anything about what I was doing or anything. He immediately said, I am waiting too long to relax and my hair is about 4 inches underprocessed because of this. He said that if I have him relax me, he will have to do a corrective.

Fredrico is the ONLY one here in Italy I would let touch my hair in terms of relaxing, so despite him being 3 hours a way, I will be having him do my relaxers from now on until we leave Italy.

For some ladies it works to self relax, but for me I can do a relaxer or someone else, but it's hard to do on my own head. Especially with long hair and some of my non-newgrowth hair gets caught with relaxer in the process. Bummer!

He normally uses Dudleys, but I told him I have the butter blend by Mizani and he is really excited to try it on my hair.

But, yes make sure you condition then neutralize. The conditioners I use in the past (Affirm) have been all restructoring type conditioners or deep conditioners that have protein in it. If I were you, I would find a relaxer system that you like and just grap the conditioner portion of it, if you are using a different kind of relaxer.

IHTHs (I hope this helps)

 

[Seeking8Rights]

Did she tell you why you need to sit under the dryer for 10-15 minutes? :scratchch That's quite a long time to have conditioner on the hair if you are trying to bring the pH of your hair down enough to return the hair to normal. :scratchch



Yeah, most stylists say this (usually something more often though) because they have bills to pay.

I'm telling on you Sistah! You being bad!

If I understood her right, the reason for sitting under the dryer 10 to 15 minutes is so the cortex will get conditioned as well. I'm sure the ph levels at this point are high, thus the cortex is open and more receptive of the conditioner. Which is why we deep condition in the first place. Agree?

I believe my Affirm relaxer says to keep the conditioner on this amount of time as well before neutralizing, so I don't think it has something to do with paying bills. If it does then, you must know about some reimbursement program provided by the relaxer manufacturers that I don't know about. Give up the goods Sistah!

 

[Ladylynn]

I just made the switch from no-lye to lye once again and I'm staying this time. I used a professional brand of relaxer this time around (Mizani). The results were great. I had much more moisture than when I was using ORS no-lye. My roots also got really straight too. I relaxed, conditioned with no heat for 10 minutes using Mizani moisturefuse, then neutralized, then conditioned again with heat with for about 30-45 minutes.

 

[Sistaslick]

Girl you a mess.

Okay, this is going to be long.
Yep! I agree. I guess I was just trying to understand how proteins wouldn't reach the cortex if the hair is already at such a high pH with cuticles and cortex already exposed. Seems like using heat on the scalp during the relaxer at that point would cause irritation, though? Heat would open up the already open cuticles and pores of the scalp.

So I called Avlon.

Well first of all, let me tell you that their Customer Service is HORRIBLE. The first person I spoke with wanted to know if my questions would be technical.

I said Yes, and I was transferred.

The next person I spoke with asked me the nature of my questions. I asked three questions.

1.) (For my own curiousity) I asked about the pHs of the Positive link and 5 n 1 reconstructors.

2.) I asked the pH of the normalizing shampoo.

3.) I asked how long the conditioners should be left on after rinsing the relaxer, and whether or not heat should be used with them.

The lady wanted to know whether or not I was a licensed stylist. I said no I am a customer. She said, "Well I can't release that information to you unless you are licensed."

I was like, "Are you kidding me? If I am a customer who is using this product on MY hair, you mean to tell me you can't answer my questions about the product composition and its properties? What kind of company makes a product that customers use regularly and they can't answer customer questions?

She told me to ask my stylist these questions because she couldn't tell me anything.

I said, "Well, what if I want to know whether my stylist is follolwing the appropriate protocol for applying your product to my hair. As a customer, I feel I should be informed about the proper techniques and ingredients/steps to ensure that I am getting the best out of your product. I'm not asking for your secret formula, I am asking basic product questions that anyone should have the right to know. I can call Loreal or Aphogee at any time and get proper direction as a valued customer . . .

Well, she gave me the number to the "Educator" at Corporate named Roxie. I called her and left a message with an overview of my questions and concerns. She called me back 30 minutes later, and she was absolutely wonderful! She answered my questions in less than 3 minutes. Now what if I would have taken the customer service reps word and just gave up thinking I had no right to be asking anything. Anyway, once I got off the phone with Avlon, I got some pretty interesting information :scratchch

I asked Roxie about the pH of their normalizing conditioners (the positive link and the 5 n 1) and she said that the pH’s of both of those are around 4.5. Now the kicker here is that the normalizing shampoo that follows actually has a higher pH of 6. So, most of the neutralization taking place is from the conditioner itself, not the actual neutralizing shampoo.

She also informed me that these conditioners should be left on the hair for 5 minutes with absolutely NO HEAT. Maybe that’s why the stylist was having a tough time with Affirm and dryness/high porosity? The instructions don’t call for heat at any point in that process, nor should the conditioner be left on the hair for that duration of time.


The part about paying da bills was in response to the "You need to come back every ___ amount of weeks" comment I was being silly. They all say that, except the number changes and it tends to be shorter than 12 weeks, so I have to respect any stylist for at least giving you some time to rest between applications. 12 weeks is definitely a good, respectable stretch so I'm more likely to see a stylist who encourages that to be one that actually does care about your hair. Some stylists will swear up and down that any less than 6 weeks between applications spells doom for your strands. Honestly, I don't think there's a magic number. Like others have said, you have do what is right for your own head. For me it's 12-14 weeks for aesthetic purposes.

Yeah, but telling customers I need to see you every ___ weeks keeps their clientele in a healthy, financial rotation. You'd be hard pressed to find a stylist that encourages stretching (and definitely not self relaxing!) because stretching=empty chair==no income stream=unpaid bills.

I'm telling on you Sistah! You being bad!

If I understood her right, the reason for sitting under the dryer 10 to 15 minutes is so the cortex will get conditioned as well. I'm sure the ph levels at this point are high, thus the cortex is open and more receptive of the conditioner. Which is why we deep condition in the first place. Agree?

I believe my Affirm relaxer says to keep the conditioner on this amount of time as well before neutralizing, so I don't think it has something to do with paying bills. If it does then, you must know about some reimbursement program provided by the relaxer manufacturers that I don't know about. Give up the goods Sistah!

 

[myco]

No girl! It's not wrong! It would just be more beneficial if the conditioner came first. Most salon lye relaxers come with this step already integrated like that. Affirm and Vitale are two that come to mind. They both have conditioners that come before the neutralizer.

However, most relaxers that are on the market for the average customer to do at home (no lyes), do not include this step--- and really they should. If anyone needs it, it's the do it yourself lady picking up a kit from Walmart! Fortunately, this step can be safely done with ANY relaxer, and you'll notice a difference once you start incorporating it. There'll be no more limp, plastered to the scalp fresh relaxed feel-- your hair will bounce, feel full, and have lots of body. I never skip this step, ever!

I totally agree. Not to mention, your hair will never have that "fresh relaxer" smell.

 

[locabouthair]

No girl! It's not wrong! It would just be more beneficial if the conditioner came first. Most salon lye relaxers come with this step already integrated like that. Affirm and Vitale are two that come to mind. They both have conditioners that come before the neutralizer.

However, most relaxers that are on the market for the average customer to do at home (no lyes), do not include this step--- and really they should. If anyone needs it, it's the do it yourself lady picking up a kit from Walmart! Fortunately, this step can be safely done with ANY relaxer, and you'll notice a difference once you start incorporating it. There'll be no more limp, plastered to the scalp fresh relaxed feel-- your hair will bounce, feel full, and have lots of body. I never skip this step, ever!

Thanks for explaining this to me sista.

 

[Lady Esquire]

SistaSlick, you have heard this a gazillion times, but your haircare knowledge is unparalelled!! I will be the first in line to purchase your book. Make sure to stop over here in Atlanta if you promote it with a book tour.

This was an extremely informative thread!

 

[Seeking8Rights]

Girl you a mess.

Okay, this is going to be long.
Yep! I agree. I guess I was just trying to understand how proteins wouldn't reach the cortex if the hair is already at such a high pH with cuticles and cortex already exposed. Seems like using heat on the scalp during the relaxer at that point would cause irritation, though? Heat would open up the already open cuticles and pores of the scalp.

So I called Avlon.

Well first of all, let me tell you that their Customer Service is HORRIBLE. The first person I spoke with wanted to know if my questions would be technical.

I said Yes, and I was transferred.

The next person I spoke with asked me the nature of my questions. I asked three questions.

1.) (For my own curiousity) I asked about the pHs of the Positive link and 5 n 1 reconstructors.

2.) I asked the pH of the normalizing shampoo.

3.) I asked how long the conditioners should be left on after rinsing the relaxer, and whether or not heat should be used with them.

The lady wanted to know whether or not I was a licensed stylist. I said no I am a customer. She said, "Well I can't release that information to you unless you are licensed."

I was like, "Are you kidding me? If I am a customer who is using this product on MY hair, you mean to tell me you can't answer my questions about the product composition and its properties? What kind of company makes a product that customers use regularly and they can't answer customer questions?

She told me to ask my stylist these questions because she couldn't tell me anything.

I said, "Well, what if I want to know whether my stylist is follolwing the appropriate protocol for applying your product to my hair. As a customer, I feel I should be informed about the proper techniques and ingredients/steps to ensure that I am getting the best out of your product. I'm not asking for your secret formula, I am asking basic product questions that anyone should have the right to know. I can call Loreal or Aphogee at any time and get proper direction as a valued customer . . .

Well, she gave me the number to the "Educator" at Corporate named Roxie. I called her and left a message with an overview of my questions and concerns. She called me back 30 minutes later, and she was absolutely wonderful! She answered my questions in less than 3 minutes. Now what if I would have taken the customer service reps word and just gave up thinking I had no right to be asking anything. Anyway, once I got off the phone with Avlon, I got some pretty interesting information :scratchch

I asked Roxie about the pH of their normalizing conditioners (the positive link and the 5 n 1) and she said that the pH’s of both of those are around 4.5. Now the kicker here is that the normalizing shampoo that follows actually has a higher pH of 6. So, most of the neutralization taking place is from the conditioner itself, not the actual neutralizing shampoo.

She also informed me that these conditioners should be left on the hair for 5 minutes with absolutely NO HEAT. Maybe that’s why the stylist was having a tough time with Affirm and dryness/high porosity? The instructions don’t call for heat at any point in that process, nor should the conditioner be left on the hair for that duration of time.


The part about paying da bills was in response to the "You need to come back every ___ amount of weeks" comment I was being silly. They all say that, except the number changes and it tends to be shorter than 12 weeks, so I have to respect any stylist for at least giving you some time to rest between applications. 12 weeks is definitely a good, respectable stretch so I'm more likely to see a stylist who encourages that to be one that actually does care about your hair. Some stylists will swear up and down that any less than 6 weeks between applications spells doom for your strands. Honestly, I don't think there's a magic number. Like others have said, you have do what is right for your own head. For me it's 12-14 weeks for aesthetic purposes.

Yeah, but telling customers I need to see you every ___ weeks keeps their clientele in a healthy, financial rotation. You'd be hard pressed to find a stylist that encourages stretching (and definitely not self relaxing!) because stretching=empty chair==no income stream=unpaid bills.

Yeah, their CS is really bad. Working with them (might be the same gal who answered the phone with I called) is one of the reasons why I put my BSS business on hold. I got that level of service from Mizani and Affirm. I can't afford another headache right now so I'm on a BSS business sabatical.

Hmmm, that's very interesting stuff about the ph levels with the conditioner and shampoo. I don't doubt what your saying either. So basically, the ph levels are high, then low, then raised again? Isn't the normal ph level like 4.5, so after you neutralize at a ph of 6, wouldn't that cause dryness if you just proceed with normal routine after a relaxer? The neutralizing is the last step if I recall correctly. Hmm, help me out here Sistah, how is this beneficial to our hair? To me it would seem that it would contribute to dryness and breakage??? Opps let me shut up.....

Please chime in my fellow hair detective....

 

[Serenity_Peace]

This is very enlightening. I've never heard of the concept of conditioning FIRST, then neutralizing. I'm so skurred that my hair would be overprocessed. Is there any rationale for conditioning FIRST, then neutralizing AFTERWARDS rather than the traditional method of neutralizing BEFORE conditioning?

I know one thing: I will NEVER go back to No-Lye again. My hair has never been better!

ETA: PLEASE DISREGARD THIS POST. I WENT BACK AND READ THE ENTIRE THING AND MY QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED. As always, thanks Sistaslick and Klee23 !!!

 

[locabouthair]

serenity, I was going to copy and paaste what sistaslick said but I saw that you read it already.

 

[Sistaslick]

Girl they were a mess. They acted like I was calling for the secret ingredient. But don't give up on your BSS! Certainly not behind them.

Yeah the normal pH of the hair is 4.5 to about 5.5. I was trying to figure out the logic behind the shampoo and conditioner thing, too. All I could come up with is that the conditioner is doing most of the neutralizing. It's depositing protein and closing the cuticle behind itself. So after you've rinsed the relaxer with water (pH 7), you've gotten the hair down to the 8-9ish pH range. The reconstructing conditioner (4.5) brings it down around the 6 ish range.

From the way it seems, with a pH of 6, their neutralizing shampoo is probably more for physically removing any leftover alkaline residues, since it's the product with the actual lathering action. Kinda like last minute clean up. I don't see it doing much else. This would keep the hair around the 6 range which is still not quite as acidic as you want it. So you do have the high, low, slightly raised again thing going on. Luckily the relaxer still cannot process within this pH range, the only issue is your getting those cuticles back into the proper orientation to avoid damage to those layers.

If you do procede with the normal steps after the relaxer, you should still end up on the normal acidic side when it's all said and done because generally after neutralizing, most folks still finish with another low pH conditioner for further conditioning. Nobody really quits after the neutralizer produces white bubbles. If you stopped right after the neutralizer, yes you would be battling some dryness and breakage. But, usually the hair feels stripped after that neutralizing poo so you'd want to condition the outer cuticle layers anyway. Most regular conditioners are acidic, so you should be fine using whatever moisturizing conditioner after the neutralizing.If you don't get the pH down to something acidic, I can see that leading to dryness.

The relaxer process itself, even if you follow all precautionary steps to the T, is going to contribute to some level of dryness and breakage. Our chemically processed hair is just going to be naturally drier and break easier because relaxed hair does maintain a certain level of porosity that is inherent to it just due of the violent nature of this process. You can shut the cuticles down as much as you possibly can by giving your hair all the acidic rinses and conditioners possible, but relaxing does take a toll over time as far as porosity is concerned. All that lifting and closing time after time. The less you expose your hair to this process, the better off and less dry it'll be.
HTH.

Hmmm, that's very interesting stuff about the ph levels with the conditioner and shampoo. I don't doubt what your saying either. So basically, the ph levels are high, then low, then raised again? Isn't the normal ph level like 4.5, so after you neutralize at a ph of 6, wouldn't that cause dryness if you just proceed with normal routine after a relaxer? The neutralizing is the last step if I recall correctly. Hmm, help me out here Sistah, how is this beneficial to our hair? To me it would seem that it would contribute to dryness and breakage??? Opps let me shut up.....

Please chime in my fellow hair detective....

 

[nycutiepie]

This was a VERY informative thread. Thanks everyone!

 

[Aussie]

As part of my last relaxer, I used the "mid-protein" step. I have the best hair of my life; I attribute part of that, a large part, to that step. Super strong, super soft hair is my result. I'd never heard of such a thing, but I will never relax nor allow any to relax my hair without that step ever again.

hi. what is a "mid protein"?

 

[StrawberryQueen]

Didn't the infamous "the relaxer made me bald" woman get a lye relaxer put in and then used just water to rinse it out?

 

[Kurlee]

Man, sista slick! Ur on top of things! Do u know of any good acidifying conditioners? I might be texlaxing my nieces hair soon and have narrowed the relaxers down to affirm fiberguard, mizani bb and designers touch (all of them lye) and i need all the help i can get?

 

[pear]

Have you tried chelating the hair to remove the mineral buildup from your no lye relaxer? That mineral buildup can lead to dryness along the hair shaft. Chelating will lift those minerals and free up your hair shaft so that it can recieve moisture better. They are also good for swimmers and those with hard water.
I currently use Mizani No lye sensitive scalp, and I chelate with Kenra Clarifying Shampoo (which is also a chelator) the wash after the relaxer. And then sometimes a few washes later. I don't have any problems with dryness from my no-lye at all.

I almost forgot to thank you for your response!

I will definitely try your tips!

 

[Supergirl]

Good job Sista

That first chick didn't want to answer your questions, 'cause her behind did not know the answers.

Keclee, in answering your original question--if I could get all relaxed women to switch to lye relaxers, I'd be so happy! Your friend is right that they leave more moisture in the hair. No-lyes leave calcium build up on the hair which is drying. I used to assume that a no-lye was better. It's only gentler on the scalp. Good scalp basing fixes that problem with lye relaxers though.