Relaxed hair holds moisture better than Natural hair?

MsLizziA

MsLizziA

Well-Known Member
This is so random but i was sitting by my aunt's house (who is a hair dresser) and she has full APL hair, it might actually be a lil longer than that. But anyway i was watching as my other aunt blow dried and flat ironed her hair and i realized that even tho i follow the same exact process when i straighten my hair but it takes alot longer , alot more moisture, and alot more time consuming.

It just made me wonder if the hair cuticle on natural hair was more raised than relaxed hair. She only DC'd for a little while before she flat ironed it and it was so beautiful when it was done. Just a topic i would like to discuss :yep:
 
I'm not an expert but wouldn't that have to do with porosity? And there are so many different factors that would affect ones ability to hold moisture. I guess I think it's more complex.
 
I've always questioned this as well. You know what since naturally curly/coily hair has a tendency to be dry unless we thoroughly moisturize it, I think I would have to agree. I mean relaxed hair might require more protein but it is straight so, I dunno I'm a bit curious myself about this.
 
I'd say only if your natural hair had very low porosity. Anything that opened up the cuticle would help those with that issue (e.g. permanent hair dye). That said, some who have low porosity also have resistant hair and the chemical process may not take well? (Just putting that idea out there)
 
@MsLizziA, you're comparing hair that has had some bonds already broken so that it is basically straight with hair that has its bonds intact and therefore a longer journey to go. I mean, it's like the relaxed hair already has a head-start!

Also, I don't know what moisture has to do with getting hair straight, except that moisturized hair gives a less stiff and therefore better feeling/looking (softer) press. There are so many people who straighten their hair w/o even thinking of moisture.

As for relaxed hair holding moisture better than natural hair, not true. Natural hair that doesn't have a normal porosity might be harder to moisturize (non-porous) or harder to maintain its moisture content (porous) because of a tightly-closed cuticle, or one that is open/missing, respectively. But I do not think you could improve that hair's moisturizing properties by relaxing it. Kinks in natural hair may interfere with moisture application coz you don't have easy access to strand's entire surface, but I don't believe the hair needs any more moisture natural than it would if it were relaxed.

The chemistry of the relaxing process is identical with that of perming, with the breaking of disulphide linkages and re-forming of the hair shape (in a straighter arrangement this time [See? I call that a head-start], rather than in curls), followed by re-making of the linkages.

The oval (elliptical) shape and natural crimp of Afro-Caribbean hair makes it difficult to straighten without damage. The chemical treatment can weaken the hair structure, and breakage after relaxation treatment is not uncommon. Contributing factors include incorrect concentrations of relaxing solution, mistakes in timing the application, and incomplete rinsing. Often the hair breakage is seen at the back of the neck. In addition, straightening leaves the hair fibers in a high degree of torsional stress (twisting), and a slightly wavy look. This makes them liable to rapid weathering, with the cuticle wearing down at the ends of the cross-sectional ellipse and a characteristic lengthwise splitting. [Which is why relaxed hair needs a bit more TLC than natural...and in that case, the wearing might mean cuticles missing and therefore moisture retention not as great as before the straightening. BTW, I'm not in any way suggesting that all relaxed hair is damaged goods, but just pointing out that you cannot expect to fix a moisturizing problem by relaxing but might actually make it worse.]
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well, i mean considering the fact that the bonds in her hair were already broken to make her hair straight, it makes sense that her hair would be easier to flat iron in a shorter period of time...&what does this have to do with moisture retention?
 
I'm a little confused by this question as well. Scientifically, the cuticle of relaxed hair is already raised more than natural hair (generally speaking) because the relaxer process does just that, raises the cuticle. It was easier for her hair to get straight because the bonds are already broken, so like Nonie said, she has a head start sort of. I didn't DC my hair at all when I straightened it (it was on a whim), so I don't think that DC'ing is necessary to get hair straight either.
 
so... natural heads don't need to use porosity control as often/at all since the cuticles aren't being lifted?
 
A little OT, but I've heard folks say more than once that relaxed hair has its cuticles raised. I don't believe this is true, unless one didn't following the relaxing process with a neutralizing solution. IIRC, the relaxer is applied and it is alkaline and raises the cuticles so the product can penetrate the strands and break bonds to straighten the hair. Then when the hair is "well-done", one rinses it off then applies a neutralizing product which is alkaline to bring the hair's pH back to its normal state and also "freeze" the hair in its new straighter state.

Because of the neutralizing solution, cuticles are supposed to be back down at the end of the relaxing process. N'est-ce pas?
 
Nonie said:
A little OT, but I've heard folks say more than once that relaxed hair has its cuticles raised. I don't believe this is true, unless one didn't following the relaxing process with a neutralizing solution. IIRC, the relaxer is applied and it is alkaline and raises the cuticles so the product can penetrate the strands and break bonds to straighten the hair. Then when the hair is "well-done", one rinses it off then applies a neutralizing product which is alkaline to bring the hair's pH back to its normal state and also "freeze" the hair in its new straighter state.

Because of the neutralizing solution, cuticles are supposed to be back down at the end of the relaxing process. N'est-ce pas?
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See...I'm not sure about this. I don't think we can just open and close our cuticle like a doorway. For instance, when you color your hair, it also raises your cuticle, and this is usually seen as a process that can increase porosity. In the same sense, I've read that relaxed hair is more porous then natural hair (again, generally speaking as you can be naturally high porosity). Just got this from LiveStrong -

Significance
Relaxed hair requires additional care because it has been chemically altered, resulting in increased fragility and porosity. Kinky hair that has been relaxed will need a significant amount of oils and moisture replenished on a daily basis to maintain elasticity and manageability. Relaxed hair is susceptible to breakage and dryness when it is not cared for in the proper manner.
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Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/62588-relaxed-hair-care-information/#ixzz1Hd8pGHRx

I've read it in other places too...I thought that was always the general consensus that your porosity can't totally go back to normal b/c the chemical structure has been altered? I'd love to hear more input about it though.
 
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me-T said:
so... natural heads don't need to use porosity control as often/at all since the cuticles aren't being lifted?
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me-T Not necessarily. Hair porosity doesn't depend on whether hair is relaxed or not. Natural hair could be porous and therefore benefit from Roux Porosity Control. That's why there's a test to find out if your hair porosity as well as you just paying attention as to how easy it is to wet and dry your hair. Porous hair gets wet fast and loses moisture just as fast. Non-porous hair may take a long time to get moisturized but will hold onto moisture forever. Then hair with normal porosity is at a good medium on both fronts.
 
EllePixie said:
See...I'm not sure about this. I don't think we can just open and close our cuticle like a doorway. For instance, when you color your hair, it also raises your cuticle, and this is usually seen as a process that can increase porosity. In the same sense, I've read that relaxed hair is more porous then natural hair. Just got this from LiveStrong -




Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/62588-relaxed-hair-care-information/#ixzz1Hd8pGHRx

I've read it in other places too...I thought that was always the general consensus that your porosity can't totally go back to normal b/c the chemical structure has been altered? I'd love to hear more input about it though.
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@EllePixie Hair porosity is not just dependent on whether a cuticle is raised or not; a missing cuticle, which can occur from damage even that caused just by the stress from the untwisting of a natural pattern by relaxing, can cause wearing away of the cuticle and therefore increase in porosity. So while it may be true porosity may be increased in relaxed hair than in natural, it doesn't necessarily mean it's because the cuticle is raised.

For a visual, below is a hair that has its cuticle still intact albeit a bit worn out by friction. It may have normal porosity and receive and hold moisture very well:
Damage%205.jpg


However, below is a hair with a lot of the cuticle missing from the side closest to us. This hair will soak up water w/ no problem because it doesn't have scales in the way of it penetrating the strand, but it will also dry up as fast for the same reason: an absence of scales to hold the moisture in. So the strand below will be more porous than the one above:
Damage%206.jpg


This damage can happen to any hair, relaxed or not. And sometimes when hair will not respond to treatments, it could be because it's worn down like the last image so that even a Porosity Control treatment doesn't make much of a difference.
 
Nonie, agree. BTW - why do hair strands look so nasty up close? I don't like them. But is there evidence that the neutralizing solution "closes" the cuticle? I understand that it lowers the pH of the hair and stops the relaxer from continuing to process, but is the cuticle truly closed after being exposed to that strong of a treatment? I'm looking but I can't find much on the subject. Could it be a combo of both (erosion + raised cuticle?)?
 
Ill just sit back and watch Elle's and Nonie's discussion cuz i really have nothing to add. i was just curious
 
EllePixie said:
@Nonie, agree. BTW - why do hair strands look so nasty up close? I don't like them. But is there evidence that the neutralizing solution "closes" the cuticle? I understand that it lowers the pH of the hair and stops the relaxer from continuing to process, but is the cuticle truly closed after being exposed to that strong of a treatment? I'm looking but I can't find much on the subject. Could it be a combo of both (erosion + raised cuticle?)?
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That's a good question, because not all neuturalizing solutions are made the same. So I guess it depends on which one the person used. A good neutralizing solution should have a low pH to counteract the high alkalinity of the relaxer to protect the scalp AT LEAST and bring the hair back to normal.

This is what Beauty Brains say about Neutralizing Shampoo:

Neutralizing shampoo

What is it:
True neutralizing shampoos are used in conjunction with hair relaxers. The high pH required by the relaxer to soften the bonds in the hair can be damaging to the scalp. So, after rinsing the relaxer out you’re supposed to wash with a low pH shampoo that neutralizes the high alkalinity.
What to look for:
Unless you’re relaxing your hair, it’s doubtful you’ll need a real neutralizing product. But if you do, look for one with a low pH (probably from citric acid.) Technically speaking, we should have added this one to our list of the 4 basic types of shampoo. (Even though I wrote that one, let’s blame that oversight on the Left Brain, shall we?)
Examples of relaxers that contain a neutralizing shampoo
Phytospecific Phytorelaxer
ir

Motions
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So in answer to your question, if one doesn't use a low pH neutralizing solution/shampoo, then they could have raised cuticles.

@EllePixie ETA: I just realized that I made an *** out of u and me in my post coz I assumed everyone thinks of low pH products like I do. So before you ask what has that got to do with closed cuticles, I'll give you a link to a discussion I was having with @tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT w/r/t a theory that a pH between 4-8 doesn't affect cuticle. My thinking is contrary to that, which is why I believe a neutralizing solution/shampoo with a low pH would have an effect on the cuticles.
 
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@EllePixie I found an article that says that the neutralizer does counteract the swelling of cuticles (ETA Underlining mine):

yofWomenbyEthelSloanePgs557558-vi.jpg

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well, i know i had to put in less effort for my relaxed hair to retain length than my natural hair. i didn't moisturize my relax hair other than washing it once a week and I had full APL-BSL hair. even after i cut my hair short it grew back to BSL. With natural hair I have to moisturize it on a regular basis and not comb if I want any chance of reaching my hair goals.

In other words I can say that my relaxed hair doesn't need as moisture. However, it wasn't as prone to breakage when I combed my hair daily the same way i combed my natural hair (with out moisturizer) before I learned to care for my hair.
 
Nonie said:
@EllePixie I found an article that says that the neutralizer does counteract the swelling of cuticles:
yofWomenbyEthelSloanePgs557558-vi.jpg

(Source)
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Nonie, I believe that a low pH would need to be below 4 to bring the cuticle back down. I don't believe the cuticle is significantly affected when the pH is 4-9 (which is why the use of baking soda does not scare me).

http://thenaturalhaven.blogspot.com/2010/06/investigation-does-ph-affect-your-hair.html

Just read bits of the other thread, and this is also interesting - I've had a different experience where my hair reacted strongly to a solution that had a pH of 3 and I have noticed slight change in my hair with a pH of 9. Anything other than that, I don't really notice.

I understand what a neutralizer is supposed to do, but I am wondering if there is research done comparing the hair cuticle before and after neutralizing (and also before relaxing to compare the end result) to determine if it truly serves its purpose. That's what I was looking for earlier - a comparison study on the strands before and after. Like, how effective are they? I'm thinking back to my relaxed days when I used the color activated neutralizing shampoo and would wash my hair six times, and it would still be pink (indicating there was still relaxer in my hair). I mean...was it still there, or was the solution still turning pink because it was made that way?

I'm going to need to do a Google Scholar search when I get off work...
 
EllePixie said:
@Nonie, I believe that a low pH would need to be below 4 to bring the cuticle back down. I don't believe the cuticle is significantly affected when the pH is 4-9 (which is why the use of baking soda does not scare me).

http://thenaturalhaven.blogspot.com/2010/06/investigation-does-ph-affect-your-hair.html

Just read bits of the other thread, and this is also interesting - I've had a different experience where my hair reacted strongly to a solution that had a pH of 3 and I have noticed slight change in my hair with a pH of 9. Anything other than that, I don't really notice.

I understand what a neutralizer is supposed to do, but I am wondering if there is research done comparing the hair cuticle before and after neutralizing (and also before relaxing to compare the end result) to determine if it truly serves its purpose. That's what I was looking for earlier - a comparison study on the strands before and after. Like, how effective are they? I'm thinking back to my relaxed days when I used the color activated neutralizing shampoo and would wash my hair six times, and it would still be pink (indicating there was still relaxer in my hair). I mean...was it still there, or was the solution still turning pink because it was made that way?

I'm going to need to do a Google Scholar search when I get off work...
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Did you click on the link to the discussion I had with tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT that was in my post up-thread? It was with that ^^ theory you just linked to--that the pH has to be below-- that I disagree with. TheNaturalHaven's source is only one...and from the examples I gave, there is clearly evidence that a pH that is too low would damage the keratin in hair and a mild acid is actually better for closing cuticles.
 
Nonie said:
Did you click on the link to the discussion I had with tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT that was in my post up-thread? It was with that ^^ theory you just linked to--that the pH has to be below-- that I disagree with. TheNaturalHaven's source is only one...and from the examples I gave, there is clearly evidence that a pH that is too low would damage the keratin in hair and a mild acid is actually better for closing cuticles.
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I did. I agree with NH - I looked up the sources she used as well and speaking from my own personal experience. However, I agree that a pH that is too low will also cause the hair to swell (personal experience), but I am not sure if this is true for everyone - I am already low porosity, so I do not need that much acid on my hair, which is why I was told this most likely happened with my hair (extensive discussion with a hair company owner/chemist/mixologist).

ETA: The reason that I like NH is because she cites her resources, I always attempt to find the original study that she acquired the information from, I don't just take her word for it.
 
EllePixie said:
I did. I agree with NH - I looked up the sources she used as well and speaking from my own personal experience. However, I agree that a pH that is too low will also cause the hair to swell (personal experience), but I am not sure if this is true for everyone - I am already low porosity, so I do not need that much acid on my hair, which is why I was told this most likely happened with my hair (extensive discussion with a hair company owner/chemist/mixologist).

ETA: The reason that I like NH is because she cites her resources, I always attempt to find the original study that she acquired the information from, I don't just take her word for it.
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@EllePixie I know that about NH's researches and I respect that. But if you look at my posts, I cited many more to support my thinking than she did to support that one theory you agree with. A pH below 3 can damage the hair...so to me a pH that isn't close to the damaging kind seems to be safest for hair. Particularly when you consider that hair pH is 4.5-5.5. Why would one have to go below the NORMAL state of hair to close cuticles. That would mean cuticles are always open??? :look: But we know that's not the case. So that's another reason I think that theory is crazy.

I might just do the experiment the science project proposed in one of the links just for my own satisfaction. That there is a "conclusion" that is provided as being what students should expect would mean it's been tested. And that there are more scientists that seem to echo my sentiments about MILD ACID being what smooths hair makes me think that NH's scientist was wrong this time.

About the bold, I don't think too low a pH swells cuticles; it just breaks down the keratin.
 
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It varies from person to person. No research is better than real-life personal experiences. My natural mane was extremely dry. I tried my hardest to keep it moisturized for 8 years & it was no easy feat, lemme tellya lol. My hair is naturally very dry. Soaked up moisture quickly and then begged for more. Now, my hair is texlaxed & It definitely holds moisture a lot better. I'm amazed at how long I can feel the effects of a DC. My hair in it's natural state is thirsty again on day two lol.

I have almost 3 inches of new growth & I'm doing my best to keep it moisturized and healthy. It's a labor of love. In April I'll be 18 weeks post & will get my very first texlax touch up.
 
@Smiley82 and those who say their relaxed hair holds moisture better than natural did, are you using the same products relaxed as you did natural?

When I joined the forum, I got my staples not from natural folks but from relaxed folks. I, of course, first looked to natural 4B folks for direction when I joined. But in a short while it became clear that all the products most of them used did not agree with me. Starting from the grease my mom used, to CON shampoo that everyone raved about, to Castille Soap, Shea Butter, all butters, MyHoneyChild...The list is endless. I even tried Vatika Oil, Olive Oil, Castor Oil...and I can't think what else. I have a friend who was sending me products she loved, but I hated them all...except for S Curl.

It was relaxed folks who pointed me to products that my hair liked and which I have been using for the last 7 years. I learned about S Curl, Aubrey Organics, NTM, Aussie Moist, Trader Joe's...from relaxed folks. So I do wonder if sometimes it is the products we naturals use that make our hair feel dry. It seemed all the products naturals liked were good only on application but left my hair thirsting for more of something. Come to think of it, I even got the regimen I use to this day on from Brenda, whom if I'm not mistaken is relaxed.:grin:

So I do wonder if it couldn't be the products. I say that because even though I have 4B hair, I stopped using leave-ins in 2001 when I was relaxed and starting my transitioning. I am now natural and still go bare, except if I need to comb my hair--or on those days when I consider the pros in coating my hair to protect when I might apply something but I almost can't wait to wash it off.

Another thing to consider that might explain why straight hair may seem more moist is sebum does travel down straight hair easier than it does kinky hair, so that might explain the dryness you might have witnessed in natural hair. I fix that issue by baggying every night, which causes a sort of steaming effect and traps any sebum that might be produced forcing it to condense back on hair when I do this every night. I mean, how else can one explain how my hair gets softer and softer with subsequent baggying when I'm not apply any more moisture?
 
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