Michael Jackson...and Heaven

divya

Well-Known Member
Believe it or not, but :

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Michael Jackson is dead. Not in heaven, not in fire, just dead!

In the second coming of the Lord Jesus-Christ, we will know.

Exactly.

Crown

I do not believe that Michael Jackson is just in the ground. No heaven or hell, now that is not even scriptural! He is not in some kind of pergatory, he is either with The King or with The Deciever.

Crown did not state that there was no heaven or hell. She stated that he is just dead and at the second coming, we will know. There is a huge difference. Look up the Greek translation of hell/hades in the New Testament (or sheol in the Old Testament and in the majority of instances, it translates to "the grave."
 

Crown

New Member
Exactly.



Crown did not state that there was no heaven or hell. She stated that he is just dead and at the second coming, we will know. There is a huge difference. Look up the Greek translation of hell/hades in the New Testament (or sheol in the Old Testament and in the majority of instances, it translates to "the grave."

Thanks Divya!
And I don't know why people have to worry about people after death.
Before death : pray for us, be a model of Christ, help if you can.
After death is the business of GOD, only HIM.
 

Nonie

Well-Known Member
How this is passing judgment is beyond me, becuase you are now saying the same thing. :rolleyes: I don't know if Michael is saved or not, either.

Did I accuse you of passing judgment? I beg your pardon if I did. I only meant to share what I believed and you shared what you believed. You dismissed good works as being necessary to enter heaven and I just pointed out that Jesus didn't think so lightly of them and in fact talked of them as much as he talked of going to the Father through Him.

And just to clarify what I meant by "accepting Jesus" in God's definition being different from ours is that I can't count the number of people I hear inviting people to get saved and giving them this model prayer to say. Or they make them raise hands in church and come forward for that prayer to be said for them. It just seems that unless it's that particular way or showy for some, then it isn't really being saved. My point was that how one accepts Jesus is not something that should concern us or that cut and dry. Of course the way to the Father is through Jesus otherwise what exactly would "accepting Jesus" mean if not pledging allegiance to Him?

Incidentally, Crown, thanks for reminding us that it is at the resurrection of the dead that anyone shall go to heaven:

1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going."
(John 14:1-4)

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(Revelation 20:11-15)
 

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I

New Member
Quote:
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

(Revelation 20:11-15)[/quote]
 

**Tasha*Love**

New Member
Crown I had to give you an extra "THANK YOU"!!!! I love your last sentence - After death is the business of GOD, only HIM. [/
Thanks Divya!
And I don't know why people have to worry about people after death.
Before death : pray for us, be a model of Christ, help if you can.
After death is the business of GOD, only HIM.
 

Laela

Sidestepping the "lynch mob"
And what's so wrong with discussing death and the afterlife? That's part of the Word, just like any other subject in the Bible, in our quest to understand. We all know that God will be the one to judge... :yep:


But I do agree with you that our concern is our lives while we're living.... prayer is needed for us all indeed.

Thanks Divya!
And I don't know why people have to worry about people after death.
Before death : pray for us, be a model of Christ, help if you can.
After death is the business of GOD, only HIM.
 

Laela

Sidestepping the "lynch mob"
Nonie, naww..forgive me for that. I just read other posts about passing judgment, etc and addressed it in my post to you.

This thread is evoking the perception of passing judgment and I don't agree.

I don't agree with you, Crown and divya about what happens to the spirit after death. I've had the discussion before, and I won't go into it again. But I do believe that a person who is absent in this world (DEAD) is present with the Lord (the spirit will be with God, and when God resurrects the dead is when the righteous will get their NEW, Incorruptible bodies).

This where we will disagree and I'm leaving it there. We all are trying to understand God in our own way. :yep:

As for accepting Jesus.. I agree on your points. I don't see where in my posts that HOW it is done is important..??? It doesn't have to be "showy" but can be simple, with no one around. So long as a person believes in their heart AND SAY with their mouths that they accept Jesus, they are saved. Period.



Did I accuse you of passing judgment? I beg your pardon if I did. I only meant to share what I believed and you shared what you believed. You dismissed good works as being necessary to enter heaven and I just pointed out that Jesus didn't think so lightly of them and in fact talked of them as much as he talked of going to the Father through Him.

And just to clarify what I meant by "accepting Jesus" in God's definition being different from ours is that I can't count the number of people I hear inviting people to get saved and giving them this model prayer to say. Or they make them raise hands in church and come forward for that prayer to be said for them. It just seems that unless it's that particular way or showy for some, then it isn't really being saved. My point was that how one accepts Jesus is not something that should concern us or that cut and dry. Of course the way to the Father is through Jesus otherwise what exactly would "accepting Jesus" mean if not pledging allegiance to Him?

Incidentally, Crown, thanks for reminding us that it is at the resurrection of the dead that anyone shall go to heaven:

(John 14:1-4)

(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

(Revelation 20:11-15)
 

Nonie

Well-Known Member
Nonie, naww..forgive me for that. I just read other posts about passing judgment, etc and addressed it in my post to you.

This thread is evoking the perception of passing judgment and I don't agree.

I don't agree with you, Crown and divya about what happens to the spirit after death. I've had the discussion before, and I won't go into it again. But I do believe that a person who is absent in this world (DEAD) is present with the Lord (the spirit will be with God, and when God resurrects the dead is when the righteous will get their NEW, Incorruptible bodies).

This where we will disagree and I'm leaving it there. We all are trying to understand God in our own way. :yep:

As for accepting Jesus.. I agree on your points. I don't see where in my posts that HOW it is done is important..??? It doesn't have to be "showy" but can be simple, with no one around. So long as a person believes in their heart AND SAY with their mouths that they accept Jesus, they are saved. Period.

I don't know what happens to the spirit at death and didn't talk about that. I have heard people say "the spirit is present with the Lord at death" (even the sinful spirit?) but I'm not sure where that comes from but I will admit that even I have thought it to be so. Crown's post did get me wondering though where that thought came from? I know before Jesus died on the cross he told one of the robbers that he would be with Him in paradise that day. Is that where it came from? What I do know is what the Bible says that our bodies will be changed to spirit when Jesus returns.

35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor. 42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[g]
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"[h] 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
(1 Corinthians 15:35-58)
 
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Crown

New Member
And what's so wrong with discussing death and the afterlife? That's part of the Word, just like any other subject in the Bible, in our quest to understand. We all know that God will be the one to judge... :yep:


But I do agree with you that our concern is our lives while we're living.... prayer is needed for us all indeed.

Nothing!
But, who will be in heaven (or in hell)? I don't think so.

Let's focus on this :
Tim 4 : 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

Maybe, you are right : it's a personal choice to discuss on this or not. Sorry!
 
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