King David, Adultery, Polygamy and Salvation (Question)

[cocoberry10]

Hello Ladies:

It seems that most of the men in the old testament had several wives, which seems to directly contradict the 10 commandments of not committing adultery.

For example, David had 8 wives. We hear the most about Bathsheba (as it seems she was his favorite). However, he had 8 wives (Michal (Saul's daughter), Ahinoam, Abigail, Maachah, Haggith, Abital, Eglah, and Bathsheba).

Also, he took on Abishag, but never was intimate with her.

My question is, in today's times, how is a man different for adultery than he would have been in ancient times?

And if this behavior wouldn't send someone to "hell", than how can we know what really does send someone?

Let's discuss!

 

[PaperClip]

Hello Ladies:

It seems that most of the men in the old testament had several wives, which seems to directly contradict the 10 commandments of not committing adultery.

For example, David had 8 wives. We hear the most about Bathsheba (as it seems she was his favorite). However, he had 8 wives (Michal (Saul's daughter), Ahinoam, Abigail, Maachah, Haggith, Abital, Eglah, and Bathsheba).

Also, he took on Abishag, but never was intimate with her.

My question is, in today's times, how is a man different for adultery than he would have been in ancient times?

And if this behavior wouldn't send someone to "hell", than how can we know what really does send someone?

Let's discuss!

Look at the definition of adultery: sex OUTSIDE of marriage.

Bible Dictionary: conjugal infidelity. An adulterer was a man who had illicit intercourse with a married or a betrothed woman, and such a woman was an adulteress. Intercourse between a married man and an unmarried woman was fornication. Adultery was regarded as a great social wrong, as well as a great sin.

In the OT as stated, these women were identified as WIVES. Bathsheba might get mentioned a lot because she didn't start off as David's wife and then of course, the string of circumstances that got David in trouble is part of the larger context....

What's the difference in today's times? JESUS CHRIST, who came to fulfill the law and the New Testament says in more than one place about being a husband to/of ONE WIFE and also instances of divorce (adultery).

 

[PaperClip]

Also have to consider the role of religion in culture or vice versa....

Polygamy was part of their culture, so the Lord wisely guided them on how to conduct themselves in ways that would be pleasing to Him. So for that man who has more than one wife, the Lord put down guidelines on how those wives should be treated, etc.

 

[sweetkita4]

Look at the definition of adultery: sex OUTSIDE of marriage.

Bible Dictionary: conjugal infidelity. An adulterer was a man who had illicit intercourse with a married or a betrothed woman, and such a woman was an adulteress. Intercourse between a married man and an unmarried woman was fornication. Adultery was regarded as a great social wrong, as well as a great sin.

In the OT as stated, these women were identified as WIVES. Bathsheba might get mentioned a lot because she didn't start off as David's wife and then of course, the string of circumstances that got David in trouble is part of the larger context....

What's the difference in today's times? JESUS CHRIST, who came to fulfill the law and the New Testament says in more than one place about being a husband to/of ONE WIFE and also instances of divorce (adultery).

Where in the bible does it say to have wife? I've read to cleave to HIS wife but I don't remember seeing where he should cleave to ONE wife.

 

[PaperClip]

Where in the bible does it say to have wife? I've read to cleave to HIS wife but I don't remember seeing where he should cleave to ONE wife.

1 Corinthians 7

Marriage

1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.[a] 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

 

[sweetkita4]

1 Corinthians 7

Marriage

1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.[a] 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

I still don't see where he should have ONE wife, just his OWN wife. I guess that could even be used for your previous point about it not being adultery in the Old Testament since these men had their OWN wives and not someone else's (except David but he had consequences for his actions)

 

[cocoberry10]

Also have to consider the role of religion in culture or vice versa....

Polygamy was part of their culture, so the Lord wisely guided them on how to conduct themselves in ways that would be pleasing to Him. So for that man who has more than one wife, the Lord put down guidelines on how those wives should be treated, etc.

Not to be a pain in the rear Foxy, because I totally understand where you are coming from, and consider you one of our foremost Bible scholars, BUT...Doesn't that seem like a contradiction of God's word (allowing polygamy?). I know David was a man after God's own heart, I just want to understand this more. It's almost like God seemed to allow people to behave in ways that in today's world, could get us sent straight to hell. Just wanting more understanding!

 

[cocoberry10]

I still don't see where he should have ONE wife, just his OWN wife. I guess that could even be used for your previous point about it not being adultery in the Old Testament since these men had their OWN wives and not someone else's (except David but he had consequences for his actions)

And that's where I get so confused today. You have the same type of question I have. I am trying to figure this out. Why would God say adultery/fornication is a sin, but then seem to allow it and not even deal with it.

For example, David's sin was killing Uriah and trying to hide it. It doesn't even seem like God was angry that he slept with Bathsheba. Am I making sense?

 

[PaperClip]

Not to be a pain in the rear Foxy, because I totally understand where you are coming from, and consider you one of our foremost Bible scholars, BUT...Doesn't that seem like a contradiction of God's word (allowing polygamy?). I know David was a man after God's own heart, I just want to understand this more. It's almost like God seemed to allow people to behave in ways that in today's world, could get us sent straight to hell. Just wanting more understanding!

Yikes! (you're making me blush!)

I don't think the Lord ALLOWED polygamy per se. I believe the Lord organized/arranged things within the culture that the people lived in. Some things he spoke of that He forbid the people to do. And for those things the Lord let remain, if you will, He set parameters for such conduct/rituals, etc. For example, there was a time when the Old Testament folk didn't eat meat. Well, the animal sacrifices began. The people saw the meat and started eating it (there wasn't anything said that they COULD NOT eat it, right?) Well, instead of the Lord saying "stop eating the meat", in His mercy He said, Ok, if you're going to eat animal flesh, here's the criteria of what animals to eat and which ones not to eat and here's how you prepare them and cook them and by the way, these specifics are given to do you good and not harm.

And remember that those commandments were given when the people were under the law, the dispensation of judgement(?). We live in the dispensation of GRACE now. Jesus Christ came and fulfilled the law. We no longer have to sacrifice animals and all that. And the PRINCIPLES of (some of) those laws established in the OT carry over into the NT. Notice I said PRINCIPLES of the laws, not the actual laws themselves. So just like the men had to take care of their WIFE/WIVES, so do the men of the NT and the Christian men of today. I don't think polygamy of the OT was MANDATORY, but it sure did help a lot in their agricultural economy. Wives meant children and children meant more workers and so on and so forth....

I'm teachable so for those reading this that can clarify and correct CONSTRUCTIVELY, you are welcome!

 

[PaperClip]

And that's where I get so confused today. You have the same type of question I have. I am trying to figure this out. Why would God say adultery/fornication is a sin, but then seem to allow it and not even deal with it.

For example, David's sin was killing Uriah and trying to hide it. It doesn't even seem like God was angry that he slept with Bathsheba. Am I making sense?

Again, by definition, adultery is sex with someone other than your spouse. Fornication, sex outside of marriage. In polygamy, that's marriage.

Please read up on what REALLY happened with David when the Lord's judgement came upon him behind the Uriah/Bathsheba incident. It wasn't pretty. David got judged by the Lord....

Here's an interesting review of the story:

http://www.case-studies.com/biblestudies/david1.htm

 

[NGraceO]

i'm also interested in understanding this topic...

 

[juju]

Wow ! @ foxyscholar your explanations kinda made sense to me .

 

[cheetarah1980]

Polygamy is NEVER prohibited in the Bible. It's not encouraged, but it's not prohibited either. So David nor Saul were going against God's commands.

 

[cheetarah1980]

Yikes! (you're making me blush!)

I don't think the Lord ALLOWED polygamy per se. I believe the Lord organized/arranged things within the culture that the people lived in. Some things he spoke of that He forbid the people to do. And for those things the Lord let remain, if you will, He set parameters for such conduct/rituals, etc. For example, there was a time when the Old Testament folk didn't eat meat. Well, the animal sacrifices began. The people saw the meat and started eating it (there wasn't anything said that they COULD NOT eat it, right?) Well, instead of the Lord saying "stop eating the meat", in His mercy He said, Ok, if you're going to eat animal flesh, here's the criteria of what animals to eat and which ones not to eat and here's how you prepare them and cook them and by the way, these specifics are given to do you good and not harm.

And remember that those commandments were given when the people were under the law, the dispensation of judgement(?). We live in the dispensation of GRACE now. Jesus Christ came and fulfilled the law. We no longer have to sacrifice animals and all that. And the PRINCIPLES of (some of) those laws established in the OT carry over into the NT. Notice I said PRINCIPLES of the laws, not the actual laws themselves. So just like the men had to take care of their WIFE/WIVES, so do the men of the NT and the Christian men of today. I don't think polygamy of the OT was MANDATORY, but it sure did help a lot in their agricultural economy. Wives meant children and children meant more workers and so on and so forth....

I'm teachable so for those reading this that can clarify and correct CONSTRUCTIVELY, you are welcome!

Where in scripture does it say that people were vegetarians prior to the giving of the Law at Sinai? He clarified what could be eaten and what could not for a variety of reasons (distinction between kingdom of life and death, setting them apart from other nations, health, etc.).
The people of God were NEVER under the law (i.e. the Law or sacrifices as the way to salvation or being right with God). Remember God saved Israel and then gave them the Law. Not the other way around. The Law was given because God wanted to show His people the best way to live. But also even more importantly, to show them that there was NO WAY they could keep all 613 commands with their will alone. It showed them sin so that they would know they needed the LORD their God. Grace has ALWAYS been in effect, but grace does not free us from living the way God commands.
In Matthew 5:17 Jesus said that he did not come to abolish but to fulfill. The Greek word used for fulfill translates into a Hebrew word (the language Jesus most likely spoke) that is better represented to mean to establish or confirm, not fill up to completion. Messiah could not have removed anything from the law or change it or contradict it or else that would make him a false prophet (and we know that Jesus is no false prophet). Jesus showed people the deeper meaning behind the letter of the law. He showed that sin begins in the heart and the actions are simply the outward manifestation. He taught that actions alone are dead without the right spirit behind it (hence why the Pharisees HATED him).
The LORD is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. His grace has always been in effect and it's obvious when we see how he dealt with Israel throughout the OT.

 

[PaperClip]

Where in scripture does it say that people were vegetarians prior to the giving of the Law at Sinai? He clarified what could be eaten and what could not for a variety of reasons (distinction between kingdom of life and death, setting them apart from other nations, health, etc.).
The people of God were NEVER under the law (i.e. the Law or sacrifices as the way to salvation or being right with God). Remember God saved Israel and then gave them the Law. Not the other way around. The Law was given because God wanted to show His people the best way to live. But also even more importantly, to show them that there was NO WAY they could keep all 613 commands with their will alone. It showed them sin so that they would know they needed the LORD their God. Grace has ALWAYS been in effect, but grace does not free us from living the way God commands.
In Matthew 5:17 Jesus said that he did not come to abolish but to fulfill. The Greek word used for fulfill translates into a Hebrew word (the language Jesus most likely spoke) that is better represented to mean to establish or confirm, not fill up to completion. Messiah could not have removed anything from the law or change it or contradict it or else that would make him a false prophet (and we know that Jesus is no false prophet). Jesus showed people the deeper meaning behind the letter of the law. He showed that sin begins in the heart and the actions are simply the outward manifestation. He taught that actions alone are dead without the right spirit behind it (hence why the Pharisees HATED him).
The LORD is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. His grace has always been in effect and it's obvious when we see how he dealt with Israel throughout the OT.

The term "vegetarian" isn't anywhere in my post so I'm not sure how I might have implied anything other than what you've articulared here, which makes sense to me.

 

[cheetarah1980]

The term "vegetarian" isn't anywhere in my post so I'm not sure how I might have implied anything other than what you've articulared here, which makes sense to me.

I must've misread your post. I thought you said that people didn't eat meat prior to the sacrifical system so God gave them parameters for what to eat.

 

[PaperClip]

I must've misread your post. I thought you said that people didn't eat meat prior to the sacrifical system so God gave them parameters for what to eat.

Yes, I said they didn't eat meat...they didn't, did they? For whatever reason(s), they didn't eat meat. Maybe it was by choice, lack of socialization to eat meat, I don't know... but I don't think they did....

Or maybe it doesn't matter why they did or did not eat meat because at some point, as you stated here: "He clarified what could be eaten and what could not for a variety of reasons (distinction between kingdom of life and death, setting them apart from other nations, health, etc.)."

 

[cheetarah1980]

Yes, people ate meat prior to the sacrifices. Remember that Esau was a great hunter and when Isaac's eyes were weak he asked Esau to go hunt and bring him back some tasty meat. Except Rebecca heard him and had Jacob go do it. So yes, meat eating was in full effect.

 

[PaperClip]

Yes, people ate meat prior to the sacrifices. Remember that Esau was a great hunter and when Isaac's eyes were weak he asked Esau to go hunt and bring him back some tasty meat. Except Rebecca heard him and had Jacob go do it. So yes, meat eating was in full effect.

Good point/example....

So I wonder (and this is me thinking out loud) if the consumption of animal products began outside the Garden?

 

[cheetarah1980]

Good point/example....

So I wonder (and this is me thinking out loud) if the consumption of animal products began outside the Garden?

The first sacrifice for sin was in the Garden. I don't know if Adam and Eve ate meat or the eating of meat came as a result of the first sacrifice. I guess we'll have to wait until we get to the other side to ask and know.

 

[PaperClip]

The first sacrifice for sin was in the Garden. I don't know if Adam and Eve ate meat or the eating of meat came as a result of the first sacrifice. I guess we'll have to wait until we get to the other side to ask and know.

Please help me out re. the bolded.... what does this mean?

 

[He_Leads_I_follow]

Please help me out re. the bolded.... what does this mean?

I'm sure she can speak for herself but I assume she is referring to the animals that were killed for their skin to cover both Adam and Eve when their "eyes were opened" to their nakedness. Once sin came in, blood was always shed to make atonement before Christ.

 

[PaperClip]

I'm sure she can speak for herself but I assume she is referring to the animals that were killed for their skin to cover both Adam and Eve when their "eyes were opened" to their nakedness. Once sin came in, blood was always shed to make atonement before Christ.

Ohhh... hmmm... ok... I hadn't thought about that...and in that way.... thank you!

 

[He_Leads_I_follow]

Ohhh... hmmm... ok... I hadn't thought about that...and in that way.... thank you!

You're welcome, scholar!

 

[He_Leads_I_follow]

When looking at polygymy in the scriptures you would have to study the culture as the back drop. Like in some cultures today, when a man takes on another wife it is because she needs a caregiver. A kinsmanredeemer. They may never be intimate. It's strictly for honor or survival.

Then ofcourse there are religions that practise it as some futile attempt to be as God or have a sense of control. Or perhaps some poor vain soul asumed that "be fruitful and multiply" was personlly and only directed at him. hmmm reminds me of a song...you're so vain...

 

[cheetarah1980]

I'm sure she can speak for herself but I assume she is referring to the animals that were killed for their skin to cover both Adam and Eve when their "eyes were opened" to their nakedness. Once sin came in, blood was always shed to make atonement before Christ.

Yep, that's exactly what I meant. But let's remember atonement is NOT the same as forgiveness. To atone simply means to cover. God cannot commune with sin so in order to be in fellowship with him innocent blood w/out blemish or defect must be shed. Messiah shed blood once and for all so that we are all covered by His blood.
The sacrificial system (for sin...because most of the perscribed sacrifices had nothing to do with sin) was never intended to cleanse sin. The physical presence of God lived with Israel in the Tabernacle and eventually the Temple so in order for the people to draw near to God their sin had to be covered so they wouldn't die.

 

[divya]

God made one help-meet for Adam, whose name is Eve. One man and one woman. There we find the standard. After sin, however, people became more exceedingly corrupted. God counseled people on different issues at different times, being longsuffering as far as those areas were we fell short. That being said, as FoxyScholar stated, God even gave counsel according to cultural norms, often to keep order. But that does not change the standard that God set for us. Remember that the Bible gives us the law and counsel, but it is also a history book. It tells us about the struggles that many individuals and peoples had with sin, so that we may understand sin's gravity in contrast with the perfect will of God.


Matthew 19:3-6 (New King James Version)
The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?” 4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made[a]them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?[c] 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

Just because David struggled with certain sins does not hinder him from being man after God's own heart. That should teach us something about the love and patience of the Lord. We are not perfect and will not be until heaven. However, the Lord still works with us so that we may develop character that is most pleasing in His sight.

As far as sending someone to hell, only God truly knows that heart and whether or not a person has consciously chosen not to serve him. Our focus should be on loving God and keeping His commandments.

 

[cocoberry10]

Thanks for the answers!! Bumping!