Financial Matters: What's expected of pastors?

[Amour]

I've been reading some daily devotions compiled by pastor Joyce Meyers. I had been really enjoying her words, which I found encouraging and inspiring.

I did some research on J.Meyers and was a little bit taken aback when I realised she would be considered one of this mega rich pastors.

Apparently owing a $10million private jet, pricey houses and basically having an extravagant lifestyle whilst drawing a salary from the church (including all members of her household including her 4 children's spouses) and using the church income to pay their household bills etc. Nb the articles I read were quite old, so I'm sure if this is still claimed to be the case.

Now I don't know how I feel about this. Whilst I wouldn't expect pastors to have to live a simple, humble lifestyle and I appreciate J.Meyers makes an income also through publication of books and dvds and stuff but and the church sends 10% of its income on charitable causes.

But it seems abit off to me. I feel like church is been used as a way to get rich, and fund a 'celebrity' lifestyle for these people behind what seems to be 'multi million corporations'.

I've not read any of her devotions since then, I just feel abit of about the whole situation.

What does everyone else think? Is it wrong to expect a certain level of living for pastors?

ETA
I think if I was a pastor making as much as she is claimed to make I'd be more inclined to not take a salary for myself and family, pay my own bills and be abit more considerate in the way in which I can be seen to be spending the 'church's money'.

 

[LucieLoo12]

Now with this "Mega" Pastors I will say this. Alot of them do books, tours, events, and sell various other products. So alot of them make profit off of these items, not just the church salary. But I am pretty sure they get a hefty church salary as well. I am not trying to defend lavish spending at all. I agree that alot of these mega pastors abuse this alot. Is it wrong for a woman or a man of God to be rich? Not at all. God does blesses. The bible speaks of a person who preaches the gospel should live off the gospel. BUT many have taken adavantage of it.

1 Corinthians 7:31
And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.

The bible speaks of temperance(self control), this is not just in eating, shopping etc this is for everything we do!

Now I do believe if a pastor is making (example) 5 million a year from books and products they are selling, they should not be accepting another 5 million in salary for church. But let some of that money go into the auxiliaries and different organizations in the church that can further the gospel. You have remember alot of churches are a Non-profit organization so all that tithes and offering is TAX EXEMPT. They dont have to report their earnings to the IRS.

My pastor does not work and he lives off of funds from the church, but he is ALWAYS giving back, helping the saints out, and declining money. I am one of the secretaries so I know this first hand. His lifestyle is very moderate. He wears the same little 5 suits he owns and his house is average single family home. So it can be done.

 

[Amour]

Now with this "Mega" Pastors I will say this. Alot of them do books, tours, events, and sell various other products. So alot of them make profit off of these items, not just the church salary. But I am pretty sure they get a hefty church salary as well. I am not trying to defend lavish spending at all. I agree that alot of these mega pastors abuse this alot. Is it wrong for a woman or a man of God to be rich? Not at all. God does blesses. The bible speaks of a person who preaches the gospel should live off the gospel. BUT many have taken adavantage of it.

1 Corinthians 7:31
And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.

The bible speaks of temperance(self control), this is not just in eating, shopping etc this is for everything we do!

Now I do believe if a pastor is making (example) 5 million a year from books and products they are selling, they should not be accepting another 5 million in salary for church. But let some of that money go into the auxiliaries and different organizations in the church that can further the gospel. You have remember alot of churches are a Non-profit organization so all that tithes and offering is TAX EXEMPT. They dont have to report their earnings to the IRS.

My pastor does not work and he lives off of funds from the church, but he is ALWAYS giving back, helping the saints out, and declining money. I am one of the secretaries so I know this first hand. His lifestyle is very moderate. He wears the same little 5 suits he owns and his house is average single family home. So it can be done.

I agree with this. Most pastors I know are paid by the church and I don't have any issues with that. I also believe any person of God spreading the gospel, should be well paid. In my previous church, every year they would discuss the churches finances and show what comes in and what the money is being used for I.e. Salary, ministries, giving to the poor, planting new churches etc which demonstrates accountability integrity; who can see the money is being used for fruition and the further spread of the gospel.

I don't know how to think about this really.

I saw this article which raises some of my 'concerns'
http://jcmblabs.hubpages.com/hub/Joyce-Meyer-Materialist-or-Evangelist

I appreciate some of the contradicting comments also. Anyone else care to share their opinions?

 

[sidney]

There is nothing wrong with minister's making money. They have every right to sell their books and scriptures do support the fact that ministers should receive pay from the church to work full time. However, I DO have an issue with the spirit of covetousness and exploitation of the gospel. I think it's great if they can raise all of that money and use it for good. The more we get, the more we should be able to give. Once I read that Pastor Rick Warren[The purpose driven life guy], tithes 90% of the money he makes from his books. I'm sure that he still has a beyond excellent standard of living! A lot of Christians will be wealthy...it's just a matter of how you view money. There is nothing wrong with having a nice lifestyle but there is just no need for the excess when others are struggling...

 

[sidney]

OOOoooo...I googled Warren and this is what I found. I think this is excellent! And it appropriates attention from man to God. It's all about his glory.

Question: What is a “reverse tithe”? By. Pastor Rick Warren


Rick Warren: The Bible talks about giving 10% of your income to charity, to the Lord’s work. And so when Kay and I got married 32 years ago, we started giving 10% of everything we made to help other people. And at the end of the first year we raised it to 11%. At the end of our second year of marriage we raised it to 12%. In the third year we raised it to 13%. Now why were we doing this? We just wanted to learn to be generous. In fact, we didn’t tell anybody about it for over 30 years. Sometimes when we’d have a very successful year, we’d raise our giving three, four, five percent. And so we’re not at the point after 32 years of marriage, we give away 90% and we live on 10%. That has been a lot of fun.

Now honestly the impact of what to do with the money was the easy thing – just give it away. The hard thing is what do I do with the fame? What did I do with the notoriety? Not the affluence, but the influence. And I was reading through the Psalms one day and I came upon Solomon’s Psalm – Psalm 72 – which is Solomon’s prayer for more influence. Now it’s an interesting prayer, and when you read it, it sounds like the most self-committed prayer you can imagine.

Solomon was the wisest man of the world, the wealthiest man in the world. He was the King of Israel in Israel’s apex in history. The divided kingdom; it was the kingdom that was the most expanded ever in history. And in that prayer Solomon says, “God, I want you to make me rich.” Not rich, he said, “I want you to make me famous. I want you to give me power. I want you to bless me. I want you to spread the fame of my name to many countries.”

And it sounds very self-centered until you read why. And in that he says, “So that the king may support the widow and orphan; defend the defenseless; speak up for the oppressed; care for the immigrant, the foreigner.”

Today, he talked about the prisoner, the aged, the mentally handicapped. And basically what Solomon was saying there was that the purpose of influence is to speak up for those who have no influence. That was a very strong impact on my life, and I’ve committed my life to doing that very thing – using whatever affluence or whatever influence I have to make a difference and speak up for those who have no influence.

 

[Prudent1]

I did some research on J.Meyers and was a little bit taken aback when I realised she would be considered one of this mega rich pastors.
So even though you have been learning and growing spiritually (which you know cannot be faked) b/c of the mega-church label, you are side eyeing her now?

A lot of them do books, tours, events, and sell various other products.
That's correct. I guess it feels good to come up with a dollar amount in our heads that we feel is ok for a pastor to make. We don't take into account any factors concerning what they are responsible for, what God may desire them to have, or too many other relevant factors b/c I guess it feels good to speculate?!

For anyone who cares to do a little research and perhaps reach some definite conclusions here's a link to the Evangelical Counsel for Accountability. I would also advocate contacting any ministries in question and asking them for information.
http://www.ecfa.org/

 

[Amour]

I did some research on J.Meyers and was a little bit taken aback when I realised she would be considered one of this mega rich pastors.
So even though you have been learning and growing spiritually (which you know cannot be faked) b/c of the mega-church label, you are side eyeing her now?


No, it wasn't the mega church label - that I knew before I started her devotional reading plan. I started to question (rightly or wrongly so I don't know) her practices. I didn't feel comfortable allowing someones words to influence me if I disagree with that they represent.



A lot of them do books, tours, events, and sell various other products.
That's correct. I guess it feels good to come up with a dollar amount in our heads that we feel is ok for a pastor to make. We don't take into account any factors concerning what they are responsible for, what God may desire them to have, or too many other relevant factors b/c I guess it feels good to speculate?!




Maybe for you, but for me its not about coming up with a dollar amount that I feel is ok for a pastor to make. I don't question the money that she or anyone else has gained from their business/ hustles. But money taken as salary from donations/tithes and how it is being used, whether you are seen to be a good shepherd of what God has blessed you with. My major concern was drawing a salary for yourself and whole family, using it to pay your bills and that of your families, using the churches funding to live a champagne lifestyle. This sort of put question marks in my head, and didn't quite sit right with me.

For anyone who cares to do a little research and perhaps reach some definite conclusions here's a link to the Evangelical Counsel for Accountability. I would also advocate contacting any ministries in question and asking them for information.
http://www.ecfa.org/



I will look into this, I'm sure would be an interesting read

.................

 

[Shimmie]

These are my personal thoughts and not addrressed to anyone personally.

I feel that if a Minister is making millions from books, tapes, etc., then a salary from the Church shouldn't be necessary. Why?

This is all of them, why take a salary from the Ministry? It's greed. By having the numerous cars, houses, private jets, whatever, they MAKE themselves 'suspect'. Especially when they continue to ask for donations to help with whatever 'causes' they have. Come on Now!

That Church salary can go far and feed many rather than be used to endow personal gain. I don't care if it's Meyer, Jakes, Dollar, Copeland, Duplantis, Savelle, or whoever, there's a point where enough is more than enough.

Trust me, I was 'out there' with all of them. They've been guests at my former Church and/or I've traveled across the country to attend their conventions and indeed I was blessed and I still am blessed.

I'm not speaking badly of any of them, however my point will always be why do they need to take a salary in addition to the already millions pouring into their lives by their sales and speaking engagements.

I'm sorry, but many of these Ministers set themselves up for ridicule and they know it.

What about those who Minister and preach a good message and healings take place left and right; and yet they don't receive a dime and they still love what they do; and pay their own way to do it. The Gospel is not commercialized by them, it's simply Ministering to whosoever will.

My Pastors work .. both of them [husband and wife] work a regular 9-5 daily job. Yet they minister and the miracles that have and still do occur in our Church is beyond words. They're up for our 5:30 a.m. Prayer Calls and never complain about it. The money that 'we' take in goes right back into the Ministry and to help others. My Pastors live well, very well. As a matter of fact, their lives remind me of the Rick Warren testimony shared above.

I'm not suggesting that every Minister / Pastor should work a regular job (in addition to running their Church), however when I see Ministers like this, I look at the 'mega others' with all of their houses, cars and jets and wonder... why?

I believe that all Christians should be blessed and financially secure lacking nothing and with abundance to give to others who have nothing.

But the Gospel is supposed to be FREE! We have Ministry's charging folks like it's Beyonce' concert or a NBA Super Bowl ticket. It's not right. It's just not right. Jesus is not for 'profit' ... His gain is for souls.

Suppose one of our Christian members started charging money for prayer and Ministry 'services' rendered, right here in this forum, via PayPal, in addtion to having a successful business bringing in millions of dollars?

No one here would approve it. It's not only suspect, but it's innappropriate and uncaring.

Just my thoughts...

 

[Amour]

That website doesn't really seem to be saying much about anything.

Seems to just detail income & expenditure, but doesn't really specify what expenditure has gone where

 

[BostonMaria]

I don't have an issue with Joyce Meyer making good money. Why shouldn't she be blessed? Is it ok for only sinners to be blessed and for the body of Christ to be broke? If anyone should be blessed it should be us.

I don't think I'd feel comfortable following a broke pastor that is having a hard time paying his bills.

The way I see it, if Joyce uses the money for the ministry and helping the poor then I shouldn't have to worry how she spends her money. Greedy CEO's get paid millions of dollars and keep it to themselves, but we don't question it.

@Amour I listen to her podcasts for free. If you don't feel comfortable with Joyce making any money then maybe you can continue listening to her sermons for free and not sowing into her ministry.

BTW I felt the same way about Joel Osteen for a while and stopped listening to him. Then I realized that every famous pastor out there has a hate website. These people are quick to create websites criticizing the people that preach the word, but I have yet to see a critic that is actually doing something for the church or the poor.

 

[LoveisYou]

I don't have any problem with blessed Christians, God bestows his blessings on his people in a variety of ways including financial.

 

[LucieLoo12]

Just because a man of God is having a difficult time paying his bills doesnt mean he isn't of God and that God isn't with him. I'd rather take a broke pastor preaching truth, than a multi millionaire feeding me a bunch of lies and false truths.


I dont think the argument is that pastors can't be rich, i think its these pastors are ALREADY making millions from their own products and still taking a profit from the church. Its the excessiveness of it all.

 

[sidney]

I don't have an issue with Joyce Meyer making good money. Why shouldn't she be blessed? Is it ok for only sinners to be blessed and for the body of Christ to be broke? If anyone should be blessed it should be us.

I don't think I'd feel comfortable following a broke pastor that is having a hard time paying his bills.

The way I see it, if Joyce uses the money for the ministry and helping the poor then I shouldn't have to worry how she spends her money. Greedy CEO's get paid millions of dollars and keep it to themselves, but we don't question it.

@Amour I listen to her podcasts for free. If you don't feel comfortable with Joyce making any money then maybe you can continue listening to her sermons for free and not sowing into her ministry.

BTW I felt the same way about Joel Osteen for a while and stopped listening to him. Then I realized that every famous pastor out there has a hate website. These people are quick to create websites criticizing the people that preach the word, but I have yet to see a critic that is actually doing something for the church or the poor.

I think there is a subtle difference between the world and the church. The world seeks after these things(Matthew 6:25-34). The church accepts what God has for them with great contentment(1 Timothy 6:6-11) . There is nothing wrong with people being blessed...but whatever state we are in we should be content(Phillipians 4:12)...through suffering or victories...sickness or health..wealthy or "poor", we should give glory to God. People who have very little give glory to God too! It's amazing when you see people with disabilities, sickness, poverty, etc but they are so content with God! They are just happy to here and they praise God! Because he is and will forever be enough!

 

[sidney]

Just because a man of God is having a difficult time paying his bills doesnt mean he isn't of God and that God isn't with him. I'd rather take a broke pastor preaching truth, than a multi millionaire feeding me a bunch of lies and false truths.


I dont think the argument is that pastors can't be rich, i think its these pastors are ALREADY making millions from their own products and still taking a profit from the church. Its the excessiveness of it all.

Co-signing!

 

[aribell]

Personally, I don't believe that one should make money off the Gospel. I'm not saying that I think pastors should be poor; I've been in congregations that were upper middle to upper class, and so it made sense that they could support their pastor in a way that is similar to their own lifestyle. Especially if you're in full time ministry, you have to live, and I wouldn't begrudge any minister what anyone else enjoys.

I think it's one of those things that you can't necessarily judge looking in, but I do think there's a reason Paul said "We are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word." There were a lot of people in his day peddling the Gospel for money, and Paul was careful to only take what was necessary so that his ministry wouldn't be hindered. I mentioned in the other thread the story of the itinerant prophet who had everyone lining up to give an offering that went directly to him. A line has definitely been crossed when a preacher won't preach unless there's an honorarium of a certain amount, or he expects to get such and such amount in money from the congregation. There's a way to handle genuine financial need, and I don't think that's it.

 

[Amour]

I dont think the argument is that pastors can't be rich, i think its these pastors are ALREADY making millions from their own products and still taking a profit from the church. Its the excessiveness of it all.

This!!!

Success brings glory to God, so I'm all for her being succesful and making good money. Its not about not wanting to see her excel or me personally not wanting to line her pockets at all; in fact the devotions I were reading were part of a free bible app that I use.

And I do appreciate at the very least, her ministry ensures 10% of the generated income is being used for a good cause.

Its just all the other stuff, taking a salary (for not only you, but every member of your family) when the money is not needed and could be used for God's glory and to spread further the gospel.

When you are far from in need, how can you justify taking from (potentially) some very poor to further fund your already indulgent lifestyle when that money could be used for better good?

There is a lot of corruption in this world, someone menetioned about why there is no mention of corporations/ greedy CEOs and i understand a lot of what goes on in corporate secular society, but I put a higher expectation on those representing Jesus.

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

I know of an instance where a revival services was held here locally and a popular minister was asked to speak, I can't remember if a price was established initially but the minister called back the day after she spoke and told the Pastor that the money they gave her was not enough...

Another where a well know speaker from the US said how much her 'fee' was (10k upfront) that she also gets a percentage of the offering collected...

Personally, I don't believe that one should make money off the Gospel. I'm not saying that I think pastors should be poor; I've been in congregations that were upper middle to upper class, and so it made sense that they could support their pastor in a way that is similar to their own lifestyle. Especially if you're in full time ministry, you have to live, and I wouldn't begrudge any minister what anyone else enjoys.

I think it's one of those things that you can't necessarily judge looking in, but I do think there's a reason Paul said "We are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word." There were a lot of people in his day peddling the Gospel for money, and Paul was careful to only take what was necessary so that his ministry wouldn't be hindered. I mentioned in the other thread the story of the itinerant prophet who had everyone lining up to give an offering that went directly to him. A line has definitely been crossed when a preacher won't preach unless there's an honorarium of a certain amount, or he expects to get such and such amount in money from the congregation. There's a way to handle genuine financial need, and I don't think that's it.

 

[Rainbow Dash]

I know of an instance where a revival services was held here locally and a popular minister was asked to speak, I can't remember if a price was established initially but the minister called back the day after she spoke and told the Pastor that the money they gave her was not enough...

Another where a well know speaker from the US said how much her 'fee' was (10k upfront) that she also gets a percentage of the offering collected...

Wow. This is sad. Unfortunately I have witnessed situations like this.

We had one preacher tell us upfront that if he did not receive enough offering he would not come back.

My friend told me about a prayer line/prophetic line where people had to give big money for a big word from God. After those people got fleeced, tell my why some of these people did not have enough bus fare to get back home.

This is why I do not hold back when God's people are being duped. It is time out for this foolishness.

 

[aribell]

My friend told me about a prayer line/prophetic line where people had to give big money for a big word from God. After those people got fleeced, tell my why some of these people did not have enough bus fare to get back home.

This is why I do not hold back when God's people are being duped. It is time out for this foolishness.

"Fleeced" is the perfect word. That's what shepherds do when they cut the wool off the sheep. God's sheep are getting "fleeced" by false shepherds.

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

again we'd better thank God for grace cause back in the day these pimping pastors would be no more...if it angers us like this imagine how God feels..

what bothers me is that some of them lead vey lavish lifestyles and members of their congregation are loosing their homes

Wow. This is sad. Unfortunately I have witnessed situations like this.

We had one preacher tell us upfront that if he did not receive enough offering he would not come back.

My friend told me about a prayer line/prophetic line where people had to give big money for a big word from God. After those people got fleeced, tell my why some of these people did not have enough bus fare to get back home.

This is why I do not hold back when God's people are being duped. It is time out for this foolishness.

 

[loolalooh]

Pastors who take financial advantage of their church members are also turning away genuine church goers.

For some time, I was anti-church and anti-tithing because of my experience with a pastor who seemed honest at first, but later showed otherwise. It started with him making small requests. Then one day, he called me up to the front of the church prophesying about something in my life. He then stated that I sow X amount of money to seal the prophecy. (That X amount was my week's pay check.) I was put on the spot with the whole congregation looking at me, so I sowed. Weeks went by and I didn't feel right going back to that church. Then I get a call from the pastor after a hurricane hit our city. Was he calling to ask me how I faired the hurricane or why I hadn't been back to service? No. He was calling to ask for money for a new organization the church had started (or something like that). I never went back, and was turned off from church for a while after that.

 

[Amour]

Personally, I don't believe that one should make money off the Gospel.

I don't think so either. The gospel is not yours to sell.

Also as a side point I think we as Christians, should refrain from comparing what we have to what people of worldly society has; just because someone is making millions doing what they do, does not mean we should use that as justification for the things we choose to do.