4b Doesn't Exist!!!

[anon123]

Yay! Breakthrough

4a = slightly looser, better defined coils

4b = small coils, less definition

None of that zigzag, crinkly, "z" shaped crap

Now... my interpretation of 4a is skewed. Who has type 4 hair with very defined, easy to see coils... like a type 3, but smaller scale? Never saw that either.

Dang!!

I guess 4a has more definition than 4b, but less than type 3's?

To the 3 lines you have in bold, I would say 1) yes, 2) yes, and 3) no. For the one about who has defined curls like type 3s but on smaller scale, aka 4a, I would say Cheleigh on this board is a perfect example of 4a. I saw a picture of Poohbear's hair when it was shorter and freshly washed and untouched and it coiled up into perfect tiny O coils all over her head, another example of perfect 4a pattern. As limited as the typing system is, I think it just wouldn't make any sense to say that that type of hair and my type are the same.

You aren't the first to make a discussion of the "no zig zag" thing. It came up on a board specifically for 4bs, the cnapp forum. I think looking at the same bit of hair, different people see different things. Even in crazy coil's and Justkiya's hair, I see zig zags as well as curls. Curls are smooth round transitions in the hair, zigzags are sharper bends. Someone on the cnapp forum said "the number 5" would be a better descriptor for most of our hair and I agree. Because the number 5 has both a round part and a sharp bend part. My hair has both patterns on every strand. Different cnapps on that forum will have more or less of one pattern or the other, some with more bends than curls, some with more curls than bends. The common factor for us is the lack of clumping.

In practice, however, the typing system for 4b seems to have taken on a definition of its own outside of what the original description was and that is now one of clumping vs. non-clumping.

 

[JustKiya]

Oooh, I like the #5 concept - that makes so much sense! I've got some 5's and some 2's and a couple of 3's, but not many 6's - and definitely no 'natural' 4's, but manipulated, I'd have lots of 4's, too.

 

[BillsBackerz67]

I always thought the difference between the 3b/3c and the 4a was the size of the curl. A 4a would have a penspring size coil (the spring that's INSIDE a pen), while a 3c would have a fatter coil (like if you wrapped your hair around the ink pen).

I think the definition depends on how 'much' 4a hair you have - the larger the percentage of pure 4a, the more defined the curls.

I think AloofOne is 4a.

I originally thought I had 4a curls because my hair looks very similar to Bublinbrnsuga's hair but when she posted a close up shot I noticed that my curls were larger in diameter than hers are. We have the same texture though.

 

[Sui Topi]

Oooh, I like the #5 concept - that makes so much sense! I've got some 5's and some 2's and a couple of 3's, but not many 6's - and definitely no 'natural' 4's, but manipulated, I'd have lots of 4's, too.

I'm confused lol



I have some of those tiny 4a penspring coils though. The do exist! I'll try to take a good picture...but I have another question to ask about typing and wet hair. I think I'll make a newwwwww threadddddddd

 

[Irresistible]

my eyes just glazed over I think

ya'll are some deep detailed thinking ladies!

 

[LaPetiteCoquette]

my eyes just glazed over I think

ya'll are some deep detailed thinking ladies!

Right! I came back in to read and was like "what the .." It's cute though. But this is why I can care less about hair typing.

 

[beautifulisaunderstatment]

I actually think alot of 3c's are really 4a's and alot of 4a's are really 4b's but dont claim it because of the stigma associated with that hair type. I mean since 3c really aint a hair type...

 

[anon123]

Here are some up close shots of my strands. Being a hair dork, I have looked at several of my hair strands. I know, it's creepy. Anyway, I have lots of different strands on my head. For all of these pictures, I let the hair sit in water for a little then took it out and let it fall on a flat surface and let it shrink up to dry as it will. This was the best I would do to get my curl pattern. In truth, looking at individual strands only tells you so much, because your head is not individual strands. Your head has lots of hair and they kinda hold each other up to a certain extent. So how individual strands look is not as relevant, seeing as how we aren't walking around with 3 isolated strands on our hair. The real test is how our hair behaves on our head as it is. But anyway, lets have a look:

See this hair how the ends are curly but the center looks more like it got bent? It didn't get bent, it is bent.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57278355@N00/910150450/in/set-72157601018650172/

This is someone with a clump of hair on another forum. I'm not going to post her pics but I will just link to them:

http://hotimg16.fotki.com/p/a/70_57/103_26/july001-vi.jpg

Compare this to this clump of hair on my head of what would be a perfect 4a clump. Stretching it out will not make it look like the picture above; it will look just like this, except elongated:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/57278355@N00/1470174126/in/set-72157601018650172/

That was also a good example of clumping vs. non-clumping hair. There are tiny sections of my hair that really want to clump. I comb those sections, too, but they want to stick together. The cottony clump right behind it had not been combed any more or less than those coils.

Okay, and I'm attaching some photos of single strands for when I was trying to see whether my hair was thick or thin (comparing to half a thread of sewing thread) and what size some of my curls were (next to a pen spring). In reality I've come to realize that I have coils on my head much smaller than that penspring (they are really tiny) and thinner than those in the sewing thread photo.

 

[Neith]

Here are some up close shots of my strands. Being a hair dork, I have looked at several of my hair strands. I know, it's creepy. Anyway, I have lots of different strands on my head. For all of these pictures, I let the hair sit in water for a little then took it out and let it fall on a flat surface and let it shrink up to dry as it will. This was the best I would do to get my curl pattern. In truth, looking at individual strands only tells you so much, because your head is not individual strands. Your head has lots of hair and they kinda hold each other up to a certain extent. So how individual strands look is not as relevant, seeing as how we aren't walking around with 3 isolated strands on our hair. The real test is how our hair behaves on our head as it is. But anyway, lets have a look:

See this hair how the ends are curly but the center looks more like it got bent? It didn't get bent, it is bent.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57278355@N00/910150450/in/set-72157601018650172/

This is someone with a clump of hair on another forum. I'm not going to post her pics but I will just link to them:

http://hotimg16.fotki.com/p/a/70_57/103_26/july001-vi.jpg

Compare this to this clump of hair on my head of what would be a perfect 4a clump. Stretching it out will not make it look like the picture above; it will look just like this, except elongated:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/57278355@N00/1470174126/in/set-72157601018650172/

That was also a good example of clumping vs. non-clumping hair. There are tiny sections of my hair that really want to clump. I comb those sections, too, but they want to stick together. The cottony clump right behind it had not been combed any more or less than those coils.

Okay, and I'm attaching some photos of single strands for when I was trying to see whether my hair was thick or thin (comparing to half a thread of sewing thread) and what size some of my curls were (next to a pen spring). In reality I've come to realize that I have coils on my head much smaller than that penspring (they are really tiny) and thinner than those in the sewing thread photo.

It was my understanding that both 4a and 4b hair tends to be so curly that it coils up on itself. Maybe that's the reasons for the bends.


But I dunno, I really just can't see a hair follicle spitting something out that isn't either straight to curved. Sharp bends? I dunno why, but it just seems fundamentally wrong to me.

Your perfect 4a clump is what most of my hair looks like especially in the nape area. I have even smaller, defined coils all over too, like tiny little coffee stirrer curls.

So anything that doesn't clump perfectly like that is 4b? I understand. I've never seen a whole head of perfect 4a hair like that though... probably because I thought it was 3c...

Kay... I gotcha

 

[PinkPeony]

Okay... that's one of her pics. Hopefully she doesn't mind me posting it here. There is a pattern there.

I'm not saying it has to be uniform, but there is a basic curl/wave pattern to all hair (besides type 1a)

I agree and the definiotion of*NO CURL/Wave pattern*doesn't fit for this type of hair.
I have a few strands like this too

Those were from last year - I'm pretty sure it was dry, then.

Conditoned and wet, it looks wavy.

Hrm, I don't know if I have any upclose of it detangled and wet without conditioner in it - lemme go see.

Okay - here's a picture, freshly washed and detangled.

I know it's hard to see clearly, but there ain't no curls. Just waves. You can kinda see it against the tile in the upper left hand corner - including a crazy bend at the end of one hair.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3258/2664578894_d0eba193e6_b.jpg is a bigger version of the same picture.

I see coils and teeny waves,just like mine

neith, I have seen this on a lady in class.

Her coils were microscopic but clearly defined.....if you've seen ladylibra's coils, well then they were about 1/2 to 2/3 the size of those. Soooo adorable with a short cut.....

I think there is truth to the 4B head.

I can't be sure what my type is but I have deep, very clearly defined WAVES that zigzag....just not on the teeny scale. When I relax of course they are softened and loosened.

Most black people I see do not have actual "coils" they have the zig zag which is just a harsher version of the wave pattern.

Yeah I got some waves,sharper waves and coils.. all on the level of type 4
i keep saying this the hairtyping system is very limited and NONE of the other systems that are out there are really helpful either at least for me

 

[DivaD04]

There are true 4bs. There is a woman named Crazycoil with a beautiful head of 4b hair. Here is her link. She has locs now.
http://www.crazycoil.sili.net/twists-6june2003.html
I love her album.

she looks happily in love w/ her hair. but her hair, this is me all the way!!! when i first chopped off my relaxer, i was in love, but when my hair grew out, ugh, i've found that i hated my hair...like a man i cannot stand, move get away from me, i'm turned off.

 

[anon123]

It was my understanding that both 4a and 4b hair tends to be so curly that it coils up on itself. Maybe that's the reasons for the bends.


But I dunno, I really just can't see a hair follicle spitting something out that isn't either straight to curved. Sharp bends? I dunno why, but it just seems fundamentally wrong to me.

Your perfect 4a clump is what most of my hair looks like especially in the nape area. I have even smaller, defined coils all over too, like tiny little coffee stirrer curls.

So anything that doesn't clump perfectly like that is 4b? I understand. I've never seen a whole head of perfect 4a hair like that though... probably because I thought it was 3c...

Kay... I gotcha

Well, it's the problem with the typing system. That typing system is kinda erplexed . Actually, I would call a lot more heads 4b than people do, but it's so unclear it's really up for individual interpretation. Especially since there are only 2 types in the 4s. I'm not sure the LOIS system does much better, but I think 4a would be more like O, maybe S, while 4b would be like L. Still not that helpful to me because a strand of my hair can have Os, Ss, and Ls.

Of course my opinion isn't any more right than anybody else's, just the way I see it. Naturalgirl, I wonder if her hair looks like her siggy when wet? If so, she looks very zigzaggy. Check out Cheleigh's hair for perfect 4a. In reality, even if I had idealized ideas of what is 3c or 4a or 4b, it's hard to find a head that has that 100% all over, so I guess we just choose the one that's closest or that's like most of our hair. Probably why lots of people choose to call themselves 4a/b on this board, too.

 

[Mook's hair]

This is a very interesting discussion. I also like the "5" description.
And I agree that a real "Z" pattern just doesn't sound natural.
mwedzi, thank you for your input. I found it very valuable. You & I have had discussions about clumping in the past and I subscribe to your theories.

I'm mad because for some reason your flickr images won't load for me **GRRR**

 

[PinkPeony]

I'm confused lol



I have some of those tiny 4a penspring coils though. The do exist! I'll try to take a good picture...but I have another question to ask about typing and wet hair. I think I'll make a newwwwww threadddddddd

They sure do..
I'm pretty sure this is a type 4a coil right there
Taken from my fotki

 

[PinkPeony]

Well, it's the problem with the typing system. That typing system is kinda erplexed . Actually, I would call a lot more heads 4b than people do, but it's so unclear it's really up for individual interpretation. Especially since there are only 2 types in the 4s. I'm not sure the LOIS system does much better, but I think 4a would be more like O, maybe S, while 4b would be like L. Still not that helpful to me because a strand of my hair can have Os, Ss, and Ls.

Of course my opinion isn't any more right than anybody else's, just the way I see it. Naturalgirl, I wonder if her hair looks like her siggy when wet? If so, she looks very zigzaggy. Check out Cheleigh's hair for perfect 4a. In reality, even if I had idealized ideas of what is 3c or 4a or 4b, it's hard to find a head that has that 100% all over, so I guess we just choose the one that's closest or that's like most of our hair. Probably why lots of people choose to call themselves 4a/b on this board, too.

I sooo agree.
*In best Iverson voice!*
Only two... twooo.. no really ...two types for the 4's.erplexed
That's just nonsense and the other hairtyping systems leave alot to be desired as well.

 

[NYAmicas]

Zigzag, my hair isn't.

Crinkly, it definitely is. I don't know if 90 degree angles is what 'they' meant when they said zig zags - but, my hair does go one direction, and then make a sharp turn in the middle and go another direction. Might not be a 90 degree turn (I've never whipped out the protractor on my hair ) but it's definitely not a 'curve'

I have some curls. I definitely, however, do not have a curl pattern. I call my hair 'kinkywavy', as I think that's the best description of what it actually looks like - it's not smooth, even waves, it's wild, frizzy, unpatterned waves/bends.

Here's a couple examples.... (yeah, I was taking pictures of split ends. )

Those might not be 90 degrees, but they are pretty sharp.

A clump of hair. No curls, some 'waves' but mostly just - madness.

So, I think that 'zigzag' was simply the best way to describe it..... I can't think of a better phrase off of the top of my head.

What kind of camera do you have?
Im mad Im looking at these pics like it's art! lol

 

[Angelicus]

I hate the hair typing system. But I have hair on my hair that is perfectly described as 4b. There is no curl pattern at all. In fact, it looks very straight unless you look at it with a maginifying glass.

Why am I even trying to explain myself Hairtyping is overrated and it's abolished in my vernacular pretty much. That's why when people ask me my hairtype, I tell them, "6f."

 

[FemmeCreole]

I have 4b hair at the back....the fron is 4a and you can see the curl pattern...... it clumps and forms spirals when moisturized......on the same head there is a totally different texture....the back is woolly, doesn't clump....looks forever dry no matter what I do to it....it does have some zigzag-ish look to it. (BTW zigzags are not in 90 degree angles)

 

[JustKiya]

What kind of camera do you have?
Im mad Im looking at these pics like it's art! lol

Girl, nothing special - a Canon S600, I think it is? One of the little Elphs..... That was the macro setting, I think.

I hate the hair typing system. But I have hair on my hair that is perfectly described as 4b. There is no curl pattern at all. In fact, it looks very straight unless you look at it with a maginifying glass.

Why am I even trying to explain myself Hairtyping is overrated and it's abolished in my vernacular pretty much. That's why when people ask me my hairtype, I tell them, "6f."

It really is - the only only only thing that I think hairtyping has ANY use for is to attempt to predetermine what hairstyles you will be able to easily accomplish. Otherwise - it doesn't tell you a dangone thing about how your hair will react/needs to be treated/products it'll like, etc, etc.....

 

[Irresistible]

I'm losing my hair type with this thread


whats the point anyway, we all got so many types going on in our heads

 

[gymfreak336]

Interesting thread. There are so many responses I agree with...JustKiya, mwedzi, Yall are so on it

I just also want to add that the reason why soo many hair types are possible is that the degree and direction of curl or lack there of is largely determined by the shape of the hair follicule. Asians have a very round follicule, AA's have a follicule that is crimped kinda like a kidney bean and White folk have ones that fall in the middle of the two. Every follicule on your head isn't shaped the same which is why many of us notice patches of hair that seem to have a different type than the rest. Also, your follicles can change and rotate position which can change your hair type.

 

[JustKiya]

Interesting thread. There are so many responses I agree with...JustKiya, mwedzi, Yall are so on it

I just also want to add that the reason why soo many hair types are possible is that the degree and direction of curl or lack there of is largely determined by the shape of the hair follicule. Asians have a very round follicule, AA's have a follicule that is crimped kinda like a kidney bean and White folk have ones that fall in the middle of the two. Every follicule on your head isn't shaped the same which is why many of us notice patches of hair that seem to have a different type than the rest. Also, your follicles can change and rotate position which can change your hair type.

What, what???!?! Can you break this down a little more? I had made a comment a while ago around how 'baby hair' changes, and I mulled over whether it might be because as their heads grow, the position/angle of the follicle in the skin might shift - but follicles can actually - move?

 

[Neith]

Interesting thread. There are so many responses I agree with...JustKiya, mwedzi, Yall are so on it

I just also want to add that the reason why soo many hair types are possible is that the degree and direction of curl or lack there of is largely determined by the shape of the hair follicule. Asians have a very round follicule, AA's have a follicule that is crimped kinda like a kidney bean and White folk have ones that fall in the middle of the two. Every follicule on your head isn't shaped the same which is why many of us notice patches of hair that seem to have a different type than the rest. Also, your follicles can change and rotate position which can change your hair type.

What causes that?

 

[Neith]

JustKiya - great minds think alike

 

[gymfreak336]

What, what???!?! Can you break this down a little more? I had made a comment a while ago around how 'baby hair' changes, and I mulled over whether it might be because as their heads grow, the position/angle of the follicle in the skin might shift - but follicles can actually - move?

I started a thread before about hair type changing. I was asking before about hair type changing and if some else was experiencing that because mine has changed within the last 6-7 months. I mean like a noticable difference. Me and mother even pulled out my pics from childhood to compare. My whole family has been all up in my scalp and everyone sees the change. Even my father that doesn't notice crap I have gone from not having a noticable pronounced curl pattern to having trademark 4a coils. Now with the megatek/ovation, its even thicker and the coils are bigger. I asked for opinions about it and many people agreed with me. I then asked my derm. which comfirmed it all. He said alot of it is hormonal which is why some women notice changes when they are pregnant and even after the baby is born, it doesn't change back. He said that the follicules can rotate and shift position which will change the direction in your hair growth which can then change your overal hair type.

 

[Neith]

I started a thread before about hair type changing. I was asking before about hair type changing and if some else was experiencing that because mine has changed within the last 6-7 months. I mean like a noticable difference. Me and mother even pulled out my pics from childhood to compare. My whole family has been all up in my scalp and everyone sees the change. Even my father that doesn't notice crap I have gone from not having a noticable pronounced curl pattern to having trademark 4a coils. Now with the megatek/ovation, its even thicker and the coils are bigger. I asked for opinions about it and many people agreed with me. I then asked my derm. which comfirmed it all. He said alot of it is hormonal which is why some women notice changes when they are pregnant and even after the baby is born, it doesn't change back. He said that the follicules can rotate and shift position which will change the direction in your hair growth which can then change your overal hair type.

eeek! That's scary. I don't want that happening to me. I already got it mostly together with the hair I have now... I don't wanna start over.

 

[gymfreak336]

eeek! That's scary. I don't want that happening to me. I already got it mostly together with the hair I have now... I don't wanna start over.

Its weird going through it Its pretty interesting though, watching and seeing the change.

 

[Irresistible]

eeek! That's scary. I don't want that happening to me. I already got it mostly together with the hair I have now... I don't wanna start over.

It could be a good thing, my sister got pregnant and had my nephew and her hair shot down her back, unlike some other ladies her hair stayed that way, thick and long as f&%%! This explains why her hair changed and my hair stayed scrugglin!

and just think they say our grays can be a different hair type too, we aint got nothin to look forward to but total unpredictability just when we think we got it.

 

[Always~Wear~Joy]

They sure do..
I'm pretty sure this is a type 4a coil right there
Taken from my fotki

so cute!!! I have these coils throughout my hair too

 

[JustKiya]

I started a thread before about hair type changing. I was asking before about hair type changing and if some else was experiencing that because mine has changed within the last 6-7 months. I mean like a noticable difference. Me and mother even pulled out my pics from childhood to compare. My whole family has been all up in my scalp and everyone sees the change. Even my father that doesn't notice crap I have gone from not having a noticable pronounced curl pattern to having trademark 4a coils. Now with the megatek/ovation, its even thicker and the coils are bigger. I asked for opinions about it and many people agreed with me. I then asked my derm. which comfirmed it all. He said alot of it is hormonal which is why some women notice changes when they are pregnant and even after the baby is born, it doesn't change back. He said that the follicules can rotate and shift position which will change the direction in your hair growth which can then change your overal hair type.

Fascinating!! Now I'm going to have to go and dig up your old thread.