No Hardcore Protein for 2 weeks after relaxer

Supergirl

With Love & Silk
I inquired of my stylist today if my at- home post-relaxer-protein treatment is what made my hair revert last time around. She confirmed that this is what it was and said to wait two weeks for a treatment like such. The soft proteins are okay, but not Keratin or keratin amino acids, or cysteine/cystine.

Just a tip! Learning something new every day...
 

LABETT

Well-Known Member
THANKS! for the tip supergirl.
I just got my relaxer today and was wondering how long to wait before I do a drc treatment.
 

AngieK

New Member
<font color="brown">Hmmm . . . No disrespect toward your stylist, but I wonder what her logic is for saying that?


I know plenty of people who get "hardcore" protein treatments (ie. ApHogee, Joico, Sebastian, etc.) after a relaxer, and their hair does not revert. I have used products containing keratin and/or cysteine after relaxing and my hair has never reverted . . .

It would be interesting to learn why she comes to her conclusion (scientifically or otherwise).

AngieK </font>
 

Tebby1017

New Member
Yeah, I've heard the same thing...."hardcore" protein treatments were good for the hair after chemical treatments.

Tebby
 

Supergirl

With Love & Silk
Angie,

It's happened to me several times and it was my guess that the hard-core protein was doing it. I just asked her if I was right. She said yes.

Scientifically, it makes since though (and by the way I get a lye relaxer) . Shamboosie says that the no-lye locks the hair into whatever degree of straightness it gets to and cannot be altered--not even by another chemical service. He also said that most conditioner treatments will not have a profound effect on hair treated with no-lye for the reason stated above.

Lye however, if say under-processed can be further straightened with another app. of the chemical on down the line. The hair is also more receptive to conditioning treatments.

Relaxers break the cysteine bonds in our hair. These are the bonds that are responsible for curly hair. The more curly the hair, the more cysteine it has. By breaking the cysteine bond--the hair straightens out. (naturally straight hair is not as high in cysteine).

So--by adding back the cysteines (in the form of a Hardcore Keratin protein, amino acids, or cysteine condtioner) then the hair gets back some of it's curl because the cysteine is what makes it curly in the first place.

I hope that made since.

CBG,

Soft proteins would be like wheat protein, silk, even collagen. Keratin is the main one that is hardcore. I believe (not certain though) that Polyquaternium-32 is a moisturizing agent. But it is definitely not a protein so no need to worry.
 

AngieK

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
Supergirl said:
Angie,

It's happened to me several times and it was my guess that the hard-core protein was doing it. I just asked her if I was right. She said yes.

Scientifically, it makes since though (and by the way I get a lye relaxer) . Shamboosie says that the no-lye locks the hair into whatever degree of straightness it gets to and cannot be altered--not even by another chemical service. He also said that most conditioner treatments will not have a profound effect on hair treated with no-lye for the reason stated above.

Lye however, if say under-processed can be further straightened with another app. of the chemical on down the line. The hair is also more receptive to conditioning treatments.

Relaxers break the cysteine bonds in our hair. These are the bonds that are responsible for curly hair. The more curly the hair, the more cysteine it has. By breaking the cysteine bond--the hair straightens out. (naturally straight hair is not as high in cysteine).

So--by adding back the cysteines (in the form of a Hardcore Keratin protein, amino acids, or cysteine condtioner) then the hair gets back some of it's curl because the cysteine is what makes it curly in the first place.

I hope that made since.

CBG,

Soft proteins would be like wheat protein, silk, even collagen. Keratin is the main one that is hardcore. I believe (not certain though) that Polyquaternium-32 is a moisturizing agent. But it is definitely not a protein so no need to worry.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="brown">But given how the relaxing process actually occurs, it doesn't really make scientific sense because the chemistry behind it does not support the explanation . . .

Once the bonds have been chemically broken and rearranged, the hair is softened (relaxed) and can be smoothed into a straight pattern. Once neutralized and acidified, processing stops and the hair has been chemically altered into its new form. What your stylist is implying is that the mere topical application of cysteine or keratin will somehow rebreak the newly formed bonds AND move them back to the original configuration! Truly, hair that has been properly relaxed will not "revert," and proteins and amino acids just do not have the ability to reconfigure the bonds. They can temporarily fill and/or coat weak portions of the hair, but they cannot rearrange the bonds. I wish I could somehow show you some diagrams of the "before and after" chemical configurations.

Anyway, it sounds more like your hair is not getting straight from either the relaxer product itself, or that the application or smoothing process is not adequate. Usually when this happens, you don't notice that the hair has been "underprocessed" until the next wash. It just may be coincidental that you are associating the occurrence with the use of a keratin conditioner.

Of course, if you don't feel comfortable using a keratin conditioner after a relaxer, then you should use something else. But I just don't think the conditioner is the true reason for your problem.

AngieK
</font>
 

Supergirl

With Love & Silk
No Angie,

I swear--I leave the salon with straight hair:) Before I started doing my clarify, protein conditioner routine after relaxers--my hair never reverted.

That's the thing about Hydrolyzed Keratin--hydrolyzed means that it has been chemically broken down (in a lab somewhere) to a small enough molecular weight to actually penetrate the hair shaft. So hydrolyzed keratin is one of the ones that doesn't just fill or coat the hair.

Pretty cool, huh?
 

Supergirl

With Love & Silk
I think the main protein in Keraphix is collagen ( I say that because it's the one that is hydrolyzed) The keratin is not hydrolyzed so based on my "research", this one might not cause a problem. Have you ever had the "reverting" problem before Luna wiith another conditioner?
 

northernbelle

New Member
Thank you, Supergirl for the information.

Actually, I was wondering the same thing myself.

So, is this to say that Aubrey Organics GPB is an example of a soft protein, and the Joico K-Pak is an example of a hard protein?

Just asking for my own clarification.

northernbelle
 

Supergirl

With Love & Silk
NB,

not sure about Aubrey GPB. I know that it does contain cysteine. To check it out, you could try it on a small section of hair first to see what happens
 

AngieK

New Member
<font color="brown">Supergirl,

Your statement about leaving the salon with straight hair really sounds like your hair just is not being relaxed straight. When my old stylist was using the Affirm Fiberguard relaxer on my hair, it NEVER relaxed straight (which I did not mind since I don't like it bone straight). Once she neutralized and conditioned my hair, it was usually set on rollers and then doobie wrapped. My hair was ALWAYS straight when I left the salon. But after the first wash, it was evident that it was not relaxed straight. This really sounds like what is happening with your hair.

Anyway, I am going to see if I can find a link to a few resources that explain actual hair chemistry. That way you will have a better understanding of how topical proteins actually work, and you will find out that there are only certain chemical processes that can change the molecular structure of hair. Topical products may CLAIM to repair hair, but we all know that the most they can do is temporarily reinforce and improve the look and feel. They certainly cannot alter the molecular bonds in our hair.

It is obvious that you have a lot of product knwoledge (which we all appreciate
). But I just want you to understand the CHEMISTRY so that you will be better able to differentiate between product claims and actual hair facts. I just don't want people getting misled about this protein issue.

AngieK

P.S. It may take me a few days because my last remaining grand-aunt just passed away
. Funeral plans are up in the air, but if they do not decide to cremate, I will be taking a trip to Wash., D.C. for her funeral sometime this week. In the meantime, KMS has a great educational resource with a chapter on hair chemistry. You can find it at www.kmshaircare.com. </font>
 

Allandra

Well-Known Member
Sorry to hear about your last remaining grand-aunt passing away. I'll keep your family in my thoughts.
 

Supergirl

With Love & Silk
AngieK,

I'm very sorry to hear about your aunt. I'll also look forward to the info. that you find, but my info. about hair structure, bonds, and why some conditioners do XY &amp; Z was learned in a college chemistry course(of which I had 25 hours) I didn't have a clue before then.
 

jasmin

Well-Known Member
I did a hardcore protein treatment the 5th week of my relaxer and it reverted my hair big time around the edges. I don't know what happen. I can normally go 9 weeks before seeing that happen so I had to go get a last minute touch up because I had a engagement to go to. If I didn't have anything to go to then I would have let it go for awhile. Just so guys know I used the Elucence protein treatment. I just bought Keraphix. I hope this one is ok.
 

Islandgirl

New Member
i have to agree with angiek, i have had times that i came out of the salon with what appeared to be straight hair, but upon washing my hair a week later, i discovered that my hair was underprocessed. My hairdresser made some lame excuse (not saying that yours did, mine was just terrible, i left her after another chemical service). I also believe that the treatments cannot change the molecular structure, but improve the look and feel, like its temporary. That's why i continually put protein in my hair until i trim the damaged parts, that way it won't fall out. I got this info from articles posted here, other boards, and websites. Whatever it is, i hope you get to the bottom of it .

AngieK, sorry to hear about your aunt.
 

Supergirl

With Love & Silk
By the way AngieK,

I know you know your stuff too b/c your moisture mix with the Elucence and the Kenra was off the hook!

Jasmin,

Elucence doesn't give out the ingredients to the Extended Moisture Repair and I thought it was exactly the same as the Elasta Breakage Control. But Allandra talked to Lisa Pleasant who said it was similar and I talked to a Kenra rep. who said they were similar, but not the same. So, to get to the point: I suspect that the Elucence Extended Moisture Repair might have some keratin in it because when I first tried Angie's moisture mix, I used way to much of the EMR and my hair dried really hard. When I used less, it did just fine. Wheat proteins (the one in the Elasta) don't harden the hair. So if my suspicion is correct Jasmin, then I can see how it would've reverted your hair. But after 5 weeks--Whew!
 

jasmin

Well-Known Member
5 weeks...isn't that crazy. Everything was fine except that I can tell my Humecto didn't work as well as after using the Elucence. My edges were still smooth that night and then the next morning I don't know what happened. Delayed reaction I guess. For now I have the Elucence bottle hanging by a thread over the garbage bag because I'm not going have my hair reverting that early. That's never happened to me.
 

Supergirl

With Love & Silk
Jasmin,

Don't give up on the Elucence yet. It's really a quality product. Try it again (maybe on a small section of hair) just to double check your results.
 

ineedmoney

New Member
hmm well i don't know who is right but supergirl's explination makes since to me. i get them little straight hair from pressing and protein treatments kind of help my afro "snap back" after a period of pressing
 

sylviaetc

New Member
since we're discussing protein treatments, and when we should do them, let me ask you this... anyone...

i plan on using an aphoggee treatment a week before i get my relaxer (the hardcare aphogee not 2min) so since it's supposed to last 6 wks, do the same 1 wk before 1 week after rule concerning protein treatments apply to the aphogee treatment? and after i relax my hair should i deep condition with a non protein treatment or use keraphix? (that same day)or would that be too much protein?
 

AngieK

New Member
<font color="brown">Okay, this will be my last post on this subject because I don’t want this thread to begin to degrade itself. Also, I need to pack suitcases and plan for a LONG drive to DC since my father won’t fly.


Supergirl, since you already have your books about hair chemistry from college, then there really isn’t a need for me to dig up and copy the structural diagrams about hair chemistry as it relates to relaxing, disulfide bonds, hydrogen bonds, etc. You can just refer back to the info if you want. But no one should expect to rearrange chemical bonds with conditioner . . .

However, I did find some information that I thought would be helpful for anyone who is confused by now! It is not really important for me to be “right” about this, and I don’t want it to appear that we are “at odds.” But I at least want to provide some easily understood information so that people can make up their own minds about what they want to believe about hair care products. Please know that I have the utmost respect for everyone that has contributed to this conversation - - after all the purpose of this forum is to share information, and we have all benefited from each other at some time or another.
</font>

--------------------------------------------------
Excerpt from Chapter 3 of Don’t go Shopping for Hair Care Products Without Me by Paula Begoun (2nd Edition)

CONDITIONER

For all the claims about conditioners penetrating, restructuring, regenerating, and rebuilding hair, they have no ability to do any of that. Conditioners strictly modify the cuticle layer of hair - - temporarily. The scaled layers of cuticle covering the hair shaft need to be held down tight to make the hair feel silky and soft. To that end, conditioners need to “glue” the cuticles down onto the hair shaft or fill in the damaged spaces, to bandage up the tears and breaks in the cuticle that make the hair feel rough and dry. This bandaging is done by ingredients that have an attraction to the cuticle and the ability to bond with it. Cuticles are much like any dead, inanimate surface: Not everything wants to stay put on them. Only certain substances have the physical properties to attach themselves to the unique physical characteristics of the hair.

Why can’t conditioning agents penetrate the hair shaft? Because the whole purpose of the cuticle is to protect its insides, and that means preventing things from getting inside. The cuticle layer and the cortex are there to keep the interior of the hair shaft intact and keep everything else out. Think about it this way: molecularly tiny hair-dye ingredients need a very elaborate, strong chemical process to get the new hair color into the hair shaft and keep it there. It also takes a very elaborate strong chemical process to get your existing color stripped out of the hair’s interior. Hair likes holding on to what it has and it doesn’t want to let anything inside or let out what is naturally inside.

That conditioning agents can’t get inside of hair isn’t a bad thing because they do attach on the surface, where you need them. Conditioning ingredients migrate and cling to the hair’s cuticle layers, helping to shore up what’s there and fill in (temporarily) what might be missing, which is exactly what the hair needs. In order to get as much of the conditioning agents to migrate over, around and under the cuticles, you need to leave the conditioner on the hair for a while so the conditioning ingredients have more time to get where they need to be.

PROTEINS

Proteins are large-chain molecules that cannot be absorbed into the hair shaft. Proteins are often partially hydrolyzed to help them cling better to hair. Regardless, proteins coat the outside of the hair, filling in gaps between the cuticles, which provides protection and a soft feeling. Proteins are a range of ingredients that include plant and animal by-products. Even though proteins are an elemental component of the hair’s makeup, adding protein to hair-care products does not restructure or add to the hair’s composition. To imply that any protein can somehow repair hair or permanently attach to hair is sheer alchemy and fantasy. Ironically, plant proteins, despite their desirability, don’t cling well to hair, at least not as well as the animal by-product alternatives such as collagen or elastin (Hair and Hair Care, Dale H. Johnson, ed.)

Collagen and elastin are proteins that like to cling to hair. They serve several important roles in conditioning the hair. Both nicely coat the outside layer of the hair, filling in the gaps of the damaged cuticle and adding a slight feel of thickness to the hair. Collagen and elastin also have water-binding properties that are delivered mostly to the surface, which is good for the hair.

Collagen and elastin can be broken down with water (hydrolyzed), creating a smaller molecule form that has a better chance of getting in and around the cuticle. (We’re talking a microscopic level of penetration, so don’t get excited or carried away thinking hydrolyzed collagen or elastin will repair your hair or somehow mend it. They won’t. ) Unfortunately, very little of the specially treated collagen or elastin can penetrate and be absorbed, because after they have been hydrolyzed - - partially broken down with water - - they are more prone to being washed away. Hydrolyzed collagen and elastin work best when given time to penetrate a dry or slightly damp hair shaft.

AMINO ACIDS

Hair is made of 22 known amino acids, including cystine, histidine, serine, glutamic acid, tryptophan, and proline. Proteins are assembled from amino acids, and in theory amino acids have a better affinity for hair because they are smaller and have a better chance of penetrating the cuticle layer and providing water-binding properties deeper in. But that’s only in theory. Most cosmetic chemists feel that because amino acids are so small, they are also quite unstable and easy to rinse away, and therefore never get a chance to penetrate and do their thing.

(end excerpt)
 

AngieK

New Member
<font color="brown">Thanks for your sentiments regarding the passing of my Aunt. She lived a full life. I just hope her trifling son did better for her in her final days than he did during the past 10 years . . . I hate to sound so bitter, but there were some issues of elder abuse and neglect.

Maybe later I will be able to share on the off-topic board.
(feeling both emotions . . .)

AngieK</font>
 
B

ballet_bun

Guest
AngieK,

I remember nothing from chemistry. Maybe if you have the time, you could post the information on a new thread. I know I would appreciate it, and I'm sure osme others would too. Or, if you could refer me to a source that is reliable to help me (and others if interested) refresh my memory, I would appreciate it.

Ballet Bun ...
 

Allandra

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
ballet_bun said:
AngieK,

I remember nothing from chemistry. Maybe if you have the time, you could post the information on a new thread. I know I would appreciate it, and I'm sure osme others would too. Or, if you could refer me to a source that is reliable to help me (and others if interested) refresh my memory, I would appreciate it.


[/ QUOTE ]
D I T T O
 
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