Just had an epiphany: lye vs. no lye ,protein vs. ceramides

delp

Well-Known Member
I am no way an expert so I invite others to chime in.

When I was reading the book Shamboosie (sp): I remember the advice given was 1. to switch to lye from no lye. 2. If you use lye then protein is needed and 3. if you use no-lye "moisture" was needed. 4. They advocated keraphix/ (humectress) was the only solution to no lye users..

My experience with nolye (affirm fiberguard): my hair would shed and break when I would try to take care of it at home but when my stylist took care of it it was always healthy. What was the difference. She would always use fiberGuard conditioner on my hair. She used it after the relaxer and on a weekly basis. When I tried to substitute that conditioner with another my hair did not thrive.


The Epiphany: What does keraphix/(humectress) and fiberGuard have in common? Ceramide technology. Ceramides act like a protein but moisturizes the hair very well.


I may be wrong but from my own personal experience and remembering what shamboosie(sp) said this might be correct.


Ceramides are important oil-soluble compounds (or lipids) within hair, responsible for maintaining proper moisture and elasticity. When hair is overprocessed, these essential Ceramides are depleted, causing hair to become dry, brittle and frail.


A study was done:

Ceramide binding to African–American hair fibre correlates with resistance to hair breakage
Repetitive hair-relaxing treatments often applied to African–American hair weaken the hair structure. Therefore hair breakage is a common feature of African–American hair and an important cause of hair loss. Recently, by analysing the lipids extracted from human hair, a fraction of free-ceramide was isolated in which sphinganine was predominant. This study shows that this sphinganine-derived ceramide (i.e. C18-dhCer) binds to African–American hair and protects it from weakening caused by chemicals. To show this binding, we used two methods: radioactivity detection with a microimagerTM and secondary ion mass spectrometry.

We evaluated the benefits of C18-dhCer on African–American hair fibre, relaxed by guanidine hydroxide, using a new method called the Break'in Brush Technique (BBT®). This method determines the hair breakage resistance during a brushing. Using this technique, we have shown less breakage when applying a shampoo with ceramide.

The present study opens new prospects for the development of products able to increase the protection, provide better care and meet the needs of African–American hair thanks to the effect of ceramide binding.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/do...5463.2001.00106.x?cookieSet=1&journalCode=ics

pure products:

http://www.matrix.com/products/biolage/cera_repair.aspx
Cera-Repair Pro4™- hydrathérapie in-salon treatment

• Cera-Repair Pro4™, in-salon treatments, use patented ceramide to dramatically repair and reinforce hair’s natural protective layer.
• A unique fusion of Matrix science and customized formulas enriched with
hibiscus, algae or ginseng, tailored to treat hair-type specific needs.



http://www.amazon.com/Kerastase-LOreal-Vita-Ciment-applicator/dp/B000G0HZA2



Product Description
Vita Ciment has been proven for over twenty years to repair damaged hair. It work immediately. Use it twice for the first month then once monthly thereafter. Simple to use. Simply apply on towel dried hair and allow to set 10-20 minutes, then rinse.

I may be wrong about all of this but I am just throwing an idea out there. Please comment ladies.


The links below are some products that use this technology:

http://www.nexxus.com/hair_care_brands/signature_line/conditioner_humectress_moisturizing_3.html


http://www.drugstore.com/qxp148259_...re_replenishing_conditioner_and_detangler.htm

http://www.just4beauty.com/731.html

http://www.mizani-usa.com/?m=35&rid=100

http://www.hairproducts.com/view_product_CON-NEX106.htm

http://www.ciao.co.uk/Reviews/L_Oreal_Elvive_Ceramide_R_2in1_Shampoo_Conditioner__67244

http://www.amazon.com/Nexxus-Diametress-Luscious-Thickening-Shampoo/dp/B000JOMT4W

http://www.dclskincare.com/hair.html

http://www.centerchem.com/PDFs/Cerasperse_III+H.pdf

http://www.campo-research.com/campo/formula/intro-shampoo.html

http://www.hairproducts.com/view_product_SHA-NEX105.htm

http://www.monstermarketplace.com/Health/Landing2541a706.html

http://auctions.overstock.com/item/40037258

http://www.folica.com/Kerastase_Solei_d3063.html

http://www.amazon.com/Breakthru-Bre...9-2044020?ie=UTF8&s=hpc&qid=1182404644&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.com/Natures-Thera...9-2044020?ie=UTF8&s=hpc&qid=1182405552&sr=1-2
 
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delp

Well-Known Member
Precious_1 said:
Thanks delp! this is great information, i am just curious, i may have misunderstood your post, so are you saying if you are lye user, your hair needs protein? and are these products for lye or no lye users?


I would like others to chime in. I am just repeating what the book shamboosie said: if you use no-lye--> you need moisture. The best way to get this moisture is ceramides. It acts like a light protein. A combo of moisture and protein.

From the book: Lye users were advised to keep their hair intact with protein. Moisture was less of an issue. So use light protein and maybe once a month heavy protein to maintain.

Again, I am not an expert. I would like everyone to chime in. Alot of the products esp. Nexxus products have ceramides. Some women might have stumbled on the prefect regime just by trial and error without understanding the true reason.

I don't think that the products I mentioned is for lye or no lye users. I think it is just for dry and brittle hair in general. I just noticed that Affirm after relaxer conditioner for its no lye relaxer had ceramides and for its lye relaxer had a wheat protein base.

Correction--> Shamboosie advocated humectress (which is based on ceramides) for no lye.
http://www.nexxus.com/hair_care_brands/signature_line/conditioner_humectress_moisturizing_3.html
Kerphix and humectress is both based on ceramides. Keraphix is more conditioning and humectress more moisturizing.
Anyway, I still think this is interesting research and I still want others to offer more insights.
 
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Lioness

New Member
This is fantastic information, Delp!!!!!:)

My hair is healthy, but I just feel it can be healthier, and I wasn't sure what was missing from my conditioning products. But itmakes sence now, as none of my hair products contain ceramides, and my hair was texlaxed with ORS No Lye relaxer.

When I use aphogee 2 min reconstructor without deep conditioning with a moisturizing conditioner afterwards, my hair feels VERY strong, but very dry. So when I did use a moisturizing conditioner after doing the aphogee reconstructive 2 min treatment, my hair felt not as strong, but very moisturised.... I need a balance!!! i.e. Stronger hair (from the protein part of the treatment) with an optimal moisture level (from the moisturizing part of the treatment).

I will definitely get a conditioner which has ceramides in it!

Can someone please provide any examples of conditioners/leave ins which have ceramides?

Thanks in advance!
 

Serenity_Peace

Genius never dies!
delp said:
I would like others to chime in. I am just repeating what the book shamboosie said: if you use no-lye--> you need moisture. The best way to get this moisture is ceramides. It acts like a light protein. A combo of moisture and protein.

From the book: Lye users were advised to keep their hair intact with protein. Moisture was less of an issue. So use light protein and maybe once a month heavy protein to maintain.

Again, I am not an expert. I would like everyone to chime in. Alot of the products esp. Nexxus products have ceramides. Some women might have stumbled on the prefect regime just by trial and error without understanding the true reason.

I don't think that the products I mentioned is for lye or no lye users. I think it is just for dry and brittle hair in general. I just noticed that Affirm after relaxer conditioner for its no lye relaxer had ceramides and for its lye relaxer had a wheat protein base.

You are definitely on to something. I've been using No-Lye all my life. The good news is that No-Lye always made my hair "white girl" bouncy, with body. Bad news: I wonder why my hair always looks dull and lifeless only after a few weeks post-relaxer. It's gotten worse as I've gotten older...something to do with calcium buildup over the years.

Anyway, I am definitely thinking about trying Lye when I relax again. I wonder why it's so hard to find a good moisturizer no matter what I try and how hard I try.

Thank you so much for this information. I hope other ladies chime in...;)
 

delp

Well-Known Member
THis might also interest some no lye users:

http://bobsanj.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=61_65&products_id=3021

MIZANI PHORMLA 7 NEUTRALIZING AND CHELATING SHAMPOO

* Provides a pH balanced conditioned cleansing which entraps undesirable dulling chemicals and facilitates their removal.
* Gives rise to bright, shining healthy hair.
* Dual-purpose, post relaxer shampoo is formulated to remove any remaining relaxer or mineral deposits from the hair while the protein conditioner helps restore moisturization during chemical services.

 
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Radianthealth

Well-Known Member
I have a lye relaxer and fine hair so protein is great for me. I prepoo with hairmayo at least once perweek. I mix aphogee into my prepoos as well. This keeps my strands strong and healthy. I think for me I had to find really good protein treatments and really good moisturizing/softening treatments. I think Aveeda, Aphogee, NTM and Roux help my hair to stay healthy and strong.
 

Artemis

New Member
trimbride said:
I have a lye relaxer and fine hair so protein is great for me.

Same here. That is why I love Joico so much (human hair keratin protein in every product), but I definitely want to incorportate 1-2 ceramide products in my regimen for added support.
 

LynnieB

Well-Known Member
and for the budget conscious :D:

there's an entire optimum care line devoted to ceramides:

Optimum Care Anti Breakage Therapy Stay Strong Shampoo
(i still love and use the poo now and again)


http://www.walgreens.com/store/product.jsp?CATID=304575&navAction=jump&navCount=0&id=prod2663079

and

SoftSheen-Carson Optimum Care Anti-Breakage Therapy Stay Strong Conditioner

http://www.walgreens.com/store/product.jsp?CATID=304666&navAction=jump&navCount=6&id=prod2663075

as well as an entire selection of products:
http://www.walgreens.com/search/search_results.jsp?_dyncharset=ASCII&term=optimum+care&x=0&y=0

hth the cheapos in the audience :grin:
 

Daisimae

Member
This thread sent me to Wal*Mart this morning to buy Suave Professionals Extra Strength shampoo and leave in. They along with the conditioner all contain ceramides and are advertised as knock-offs of the Redken Extreme Strength line. That line has received rave reviews at Drugstore.com.

Like all Suave products these were inexpensive, under $2 each. I'm going to use the shampoo with my Aphogee 2-min reconstructor. The leave-in will be applied once a day. I think this, along with a bit of humectress placed first, is just what my ends need to keep them strong, moisturized and to get rid of the frizz.

Thanks for posting this info!
 

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SvelteVelvet

Well-Known Member
EXCELLENT info! Makes perfect sense. :yay: :yay: The health of our hair REALLY is a science that all black women who relax should learn & discover. This is the sort of wealth of knowledge that makes being a member here pay off! :yay:
 

Seeking8Rights

New Member
Delp-

Does the book state why he recommends switching to a lye relaxer? I curious because I currently use Affirm Sensitive Scalp relaxer which is a guanidine hydroxide (aka no-lye) relaxer as opposed to the sodium hydroxide (lye relaxer) Affirm original.

I do remember though when my stylist used the Affirm original (lye formula) on my hair, my hair seemed to have moisture, but it was thin and I had a lot of shedding & breakage (my scalp was also always dry and tight) Because of that I switched stylist and she used the Sensitive scalp relaxer along with the dry & itchy scalp con/shampoo line and my hair over a period of a year became thick and grew like a race champ.
 

Lioness

New Member
I've just had a look at the ingredients of the Soft Sheen Carson Stay Strong conditioner that LynnieB posted (Thanks LynnieB :kiss: The PJ in me loves cheapies...)

The product description says that it has ceramides in it, but How can you tell in the ingredients if the product has ceramides apart from looking at the product description? Is there a particular ingredient to look out for?
 
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Artemis

New Member
@ Keclee23--I know you asked Delp the question but I just wanted to give my thoughts on this...

As a general rule I think of it like this:

Lye relaxers: better on the hair, hell on the scalp

No-Lye relaxers: better on the scalp, hell on the hair

With calcium hydroxide and guanidine hydroxide, the cuticle is left open after the relaxer process, which leaks all the moisture out of the hair (making it more dry and brittle). Lye relaxers smooth the cuticle after the relaxer process (maybe the pH is lower--can someone check on that??) so the strands can better retain moisture than no-lye relaxed strands. I think the exception to the rule would be Phytorelaxer, but I'm not even close to being an expert on that.

While I don't as a whole think that one type is better than the other (they both can deplete the hair), for me, it's a "Pick your Poison" type of situation.

HTH
 

Artemis

New Member
Actually it does logically follow that using ceramides (being a lipid) on hair that is relaxed w/a no-lye relaxer would be greatly beneficial, as the ceramides act as a moisture-binding agent where the cuticle fails to close itself, due to the nature of how no-lye relaxers work...Hmm, interesting...:scratchch
 

Artemis

New Member
Summa Bliss said:
I've just had a look at the ingredients of the Soft Sheen Carson Stay Strong conditioner that LynnieB posted (Thanks LynnieB :kiss: The PJ in me loves cheapies...)

The product description says that it has ceramides in it, but How can you tell in the ingredients if the product has ceramides apart from looking at the product description? Is there a particular ingredient to look out for?

I want to know this as well! I wish I could leave the office right now and go do some "research" at the Ulta thats 3 blocks down from my job :lol:
 

Lioness

New Member
artemis_e. said:
I want to know this as well! I wish I could leave the office right now and go do some "research" at the Ulta thats 3 blocks down from my job :lol:

:lol: I know exactly what you mean. This is the most interesting thread I've come accross in a long time. It's highlighted the importance of science when it comes to hair care. I'm gonna do some research into this.

My hair would love a treatment which works as a protein but moisturises like a moisturising treatment :love: , and it seems that Cermaides is the key to this.

But there must be a particular ingredient(s) which denotes whether Ceramides are present in the product. I really wanna know now becuase it would really help me when picking out whicch poos and cons to buy.

Side note example---- in the description on the back of some 'daily' moisturisers, they don't mention ANYTHING about being a protein treatment, but then when you look into the ingredients, and you see 'Keratin' you're like:eek: - I never knew what keratin was before LHCF. and I probably wouldn't have known what using it everyday could do to the hair without proper moisture balance if it wasn't for LHCF (Thank God for LCHF...!).
 
Delp your the HAIR HERO of the month! I use ORS no lye and I rely on Keraphix and Suave Humectress. This is fabulous information and I might have to check out that suave cermaides line. This is a 5 star thread.
 

jasmin

Well-Known Member
Great advice...thanks for posting it.

I have lye...can I use the fiberguard and still get benefits.
 

mspm

Active Member
Thank you for this thread Delp! You are definitely reading my mail. :) The same thing happened to me when I was switched to the Affirm no-lye, and I have been trying to find a conditioner that works for my hair since it doesn't seem to like 'hard protein'. Can anyone tell me if Phyto is considered a no-lye relaxer? Thanks and God bless.
 

Seeking8Rights

New Member
artemis_e. said:
@ Keclee23--I know you asked Delp the question but I just wanted to give my thoughts on this...

As a general rule I think of it like this:

Lye relaxers: better on the hair, hell on the scalp

No-Lye relaxers: better on the scalp, hell on the hair

With calcium hydroxide and guanidine hydroxide, the cuticle is left open after the relaxer process, which leaks all the moisture out of the hair (making it more dry and brittle). Lye relaxers smooth the cuticle after the relaxer process (maybe the pH is lower--can someone check on that??) so the strands can better retain moisture than no-lye relaxed strands. I think the exception to the rule would be Phytorelaxer, but I'm not even close to being an expert on that.

While I don't as a whole think that one type is better than the other (they both can deplete the hair), for me, it's a "Pick your Poison" type of situation.

HTH

Thank you that answered my question. I think because I already have dry skin in my case it might be beneficial to stick with the no lye relaxer. I just remember those days where my scalp felt like it was on flame all the time, with the lye relaxers.

I do use the Cephra (sp) every 4 to 8 weeks and my hair looves that stuff. I haven't used it in a while so I guess it's time to re-up.
 

Artemis

New Member
mspm said:
Thank you for this thread Delp! You are definitely reading my mail. :) The same thing happened to me when I was switched to the Affirm no-lye, and I have been trying to find a conditioner that works for my hair since it doesn't seem to like 'hard protein'. Can anyone tell me if Phyto is considered a no-lye relaxer? Thanks and God bless.

I think Phyto is a no-lye, but b/c of the science behind the product they somehow removed the "hydroxide" part that makes it hard to keep the cuticles closed, so that's why in my previous post I said it MIGHT be an exception to the rule. I'd say to ask some long-term Phyto users what kind of moisture levels they can retain and then go from there.

HTH :)
 

PinkSkates

New Member
Originally posted by Kelcee
Does the book state why he recommends switching to a lye relaxer? I curious because I currently use Affirm Sensitive Scalp relaxer which is a guanidine hydroxide (aka no-lye) relaxer as opposed to the sodium hydroxide (lye relaxer) Affirm original.

I do remember though when my stylist used the Affirm original (lye formula) on my hair, my hair seemed to have moisture, but it was thin and I had a lot of shedding & breakage (my scalp was also always dry and tight) Because of that I switched stylist and she used the Sensitive scalp relaxer along with the dry & itchy scalp con/shampoo line and my hair over a period of a year became thick and grew like a race champ.

To answer your question:
I have his book and on page 151 Shamboosie states:
Contrary to popular belief, a conditioning lye relaxer is the best relaxer for your hair and scalp. It will leave the hair silkier and softer by conditioning as it relaxes the hair. The conditioning lye relaxer allows the hair to receive the moisture from conditioners it needs to retain its softness and to remain pliable. There is no calcium buildup and no extreme dryness, which you will always get with a no-lye relaxer. The conditioning Lye relaxer leaves the cuticle layer of the hair healthier with every application (and this is no lie).

The biggest problem with the No-Lye relaxer is that the calcium buildup locks the hair, sealing the cuticle, and will not allow the hair to receive the moisture from shampoos and conditioners it needs to remain soft to the touch, pliable and capable of holding its curl and style.
 
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