Rape: Should We Change How We View Men as Christian Women?

[Shimmie]

Originally Posted by nathansgirl1908

As controversial as it sounds, yes, sometimes they do. There are countless stories of women allowing themselves to get drunk and helpless and go home with strange men they just met in a club or party setting. Then when they get raped they want to do the feminist roar and scream that regardless of the circumstances, he shouldn't have raped her.

Wellll since we know that men tend to have trouble controlling themselves, and since we learned in kindygarten that you should be careful about talking to strangers, I think the feminist roar is misplaced.

As a woman you should keep your wits about you and avoid dangerous and tempting situations. Period. Even if you aren't drunk, you should not just go into a situation with a man where you are alone and things could get out of control. Until women are willing to stop fighting the double standard and just handle themselves accordingly, it's going to continue happening.

Just wanted to thank you for 'putting this out there'.

[nathansgirl1908]

You're taking this to an extreme. And it's an extreme I often see where some women don't want to recognize that everyone has to SOMETIMeS take responsibility for putting themselves in a bad situation. I thought it was clear that the distinctions in my post were to be drawn between truly innocent situations and outright irresponsible behavior. I'm not talking about someone who has to walk to the bus stop. I'm talking about someone who goes to a man's house the same night after meeting him for the first time. I'm talking aout someone who gets so drunk they are helpless. That actually happened in NY. The cops accused of rape got off. Why? Because the woman was drunk. Too drunk. She couldn't prove anything actually occurred.

It's not too much to ask to use common sense. And that doesn't mean viewing every man as a potential rapist.

Originally Posted by LittleGoldenLamb

Good question. Perhaps we should? Paranoia isn't attractive, though.



Sent from my LS670 using LS670

So where does that leave us in our daily lives?

Having read the bolded, it seems clear the "common sense" thing to do is see all men as potential rapists if "even the ones we know" can be of "bad character" and just "knowing them" isn't enough?

And what is "vulnerable" to you may be life for someone else (like having to walk to bus stop and wait to get to work so you can feed yourself, and you can only do the swing shift at this job because you work two others, in this hard economy.)

"Vulnerable" becomes a slippery slope. (Though some things, yes, are obvious --don't walk down the street drunk and naked, though, you SHOULD be able to, safely, we know that's not how life works).

That is not how I want to live life, but I know I'll always be thrown under the bus by society (and likely the Church) if I'm working late, have to walk to my car (security isn't always there to walk you to your car, mase can only do so much, wearing Pumas only does so much, my brief case is heavy), and I bump into a guy I know from Youth Group walking his dog and "whoops!" he does something to me.

Whether I'm wary of him or I'm relieved to see a "Man of God" who I should be able to count on to protect me --I'll be blamed for any violence that occurs.

Many a churchgoer will be the first to say: You shouldn't work, you shouldn't trust him, you should have trusted him more --then he'd see you as a sister and not hurt you, you should've run faster, you should've screamed louder, you should've been barefoot and pregnant, you should've been in the kitchen, you should've had holy water with you, what-have-you, etc. instead of saying:

That was a terrible thing that happened. He needs to be punished. Come and be healed.

I find this almost as troubling as navigating this world with a vagina.

[dicapr]

It seems that the issue hear is actually the way the woman dresses and her level of intoxication. If the issue was truely about behaviors that are dangerous woman walking into work in the morning or in leaving the office late at night should be just as much to blame for any attack as a drunk woman. She knowingly and willfully placed herself in harms way just as the intoxicated woman. Even women who are not intoxicated are sometimes unable to identify their rapist.

[Shimmie]

Originally Posted by dicapr

It seems that the issue hear is actually the way the woman dresses and her level of intoxication. If the issue was truely about behaviors that are dangerous woman walking into work in the morning or in leaving the office late at night should be just as much to blame for any attack as a drunk woman. She knowingly and willfully placed herself in harms way just as the intoxicated woman. Even women who are not intoxicated are sometimes unable to identify their rapist.

This time of year, it gets dark early. Most people do not get off from work until 5:00 p.m. and it's dark. Be it a male or female, they cannot help but be in the dark while trying to get home. Especially women who have to stop at a day care to pick up their child/ren and then go home. What choice does she have? She didn't create the seasons and the time it gets dark. She has to get home

Now... a woman who chooses to leave work, goes to 'happy hour' (which is totally unnecessary), she gets drunk and leaves to go home in the dark, she has carelessly 'invited' herself to be in harm's way.

Major difference....

Important: @dicapr

This is for you My post responses are not addressed to you personally nor anyone else in this thread.

It's the topic, not you.

Happiest of New Year Blessings to you and your loved ones.

[Shimmie]

Originally Posted by nathansgirl1908

.... between truly innocent situations and outright irresponsible behavior. I'm not talking about someone who has to walk to the bus stop.


I'm talking about someone who goes to a man's house the same night after meeting him for the first time.

I'm talking aout someone who gets so drunk they are helpless.

That actually happened in NY. The cops accused of rape got off. Why? Because the woman was drunk. Too drunk. She couldn't prove anything actually occurred.

It's not too much to ask to use common sense. And that doesn't mean viewing every man as a potential rapist.

What bothers me is that many women who drink become very 'flirty' and it gives men the impression that they are being propositioned by the woman.

As I shared in my post upwards and I truly know that you agree, is that no one deserves to be raped. No one

But there are behaviours of some women which need to be addressed. It's not fair to the innocent victims of rape who truly deserve to seek and obtain justice in the legal system, yet many of their cases have been deteriorated due to the mishaviours of women who were just plain 'out there' and didn't care how they behaved, where and with whom.

It breaks my heart to say this, but not all women are innocent victims.

In saying this, I still maintain for those reading that I do not dismiss anyone who has been raped; i do not validate rape for any reason. I never did and never will.

[nathansgirl1908]

Originally Posted by Shimmie

What bothers me is that many women who drink become very 'flirty' and it gives men the impression that they are being propositioned by the woman.

As I shared in my post upwards and I truly know that you agree, is that no one deserves to be raped. No one
But there are behaviours of some women which need to be addressed. It's not fair to the innocent victims of rape who truly deserve to seek and obtain justice in the legal system, yet many of their cases have been deteriorated due to the mishaviours of women who were just plain 'out there' and didn't care how they behaved, where and with whom.
It breaks my heart to say this, but not all women are innocent victims.
In saying this, I still maintain for those reading that I do not dismiss anyone who has been raped; i do not validate rape for any reason. I never did and never will.

Youre right i agree with you that No one deserves to be raped. I find it sad that any attempts to analyze situations and discuss preventive measures is typically characterized in such a way.

And to piggyback on point you have made, Katt Williams tells a joke about women in the club acting a certain way and then being offended when a man approaches them in a certain way. He said, "you're a ----- over there. I thought you'd be a ----- over here." The language is crass but the point is well taken.

[Shimmie]

Originally Posted by nathansgirl1908

You're right i agree with you that No one deserves to be raped. I find it sad that any attempts to analyze situations and discuss preventive measures is typically characterized in such a way.

And to piggyback on point you have made, Katt Williams tells a joke about women in the club acting a certain way and then being offended when a man approaches them in a certain way. He said, "you're a ----- over there. I thought you'd be a ----- over here." The language is crass but the point is well taken.

Kat Williams is raw but he's telliing the raw truth about raw behaviour.

And it's not just the ladies in the club. Some of the ladies in Church are misbehavin' for the wrong attention and then cry 'offended'. And these are not 'newbies' in the pew. They know better.

Holy 'Cheese Cakes'....

I don't want to see or hear of any one getting hurt (raped) for any reason. When possible that we all render caution by all means necessary. My prayer is that God's grace continues to fall upon all of us wherever we are in this life. And the healing of God rests upon those who have been violated. In Jesus' Name, Amen.

[LoveisYou]

Originally Posted by Shimmie

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There's no way around this issue. It will always be unacceptable especially for a Christian woman. The 'world' has a carefree attitude that it doesn't matter or that it depends upon the people / situations. However, it's still not acceptable.

@LoveisYou ...

There's always compromise when a man and a woman share the same living space. He 'hears' you in the shower/tub and his mind is 'wondering' and wandering. You're in separate bedrooms, yet he still 'wonders'.

It's far different than living with a sister or a female roommate.

Note: I'm using 'first person singular' ('you', 'your') in the general sense, not 'you' personally.

There's no validation if he is a 'Christian', for why would 'you' tempt your brother in Christ or to put him in such a position to be tempted.

If he is a non-Christian ... that's alone speaks for its self.

it is a known fact that men think about sex every two seconds of their waking hours. Ummmm yeah. 'Google' it.

Another thing to consider:

What happens when God brings a man into your life? What then? How will he (a potential husband) feel or think about you living with another man?

Men KNOW Men.... (Men know how 'men' think about women and sex and what arouses them). It will never be an innocent or valid reason that will settle in his heart. He will always wonder if 'anything' ever came close to happening between you and your 'male' room mate.

Male and female roommates are just another 'trap' of satan to get people into sexual sin. It's a known fact that most such arrangements do end up with sexual involvement and seldom a permanant relationship.

Just in case it's a thought, living with a gay man is not acceptable either.

@Shimmie I was responding to the idea that "there's always more" I wouldn't necessarily think there is something else going on between a man and a woman who are roommates. I wouldn't make such an assumption or draw such a conclusion. I don't automatically think "sexual involvement" when I hear of opposite sex roommates. I can't and won't make that call without more.

I am not debating the "rightness" or "wrongness" of a man and woman living together. I m not debating the risks etc. I am simply talking about drawing conclusions not based on facts.

I think you bring up some great points to think about, I just wanted to address that particular assumption, which I understand but don't support.

[Shimmie]

Originally Posted by LoveisYou

@Shimmie I was responding to the idea that "there's always more" I wouldn't necessarily think there is something else going on between a man and a woman who are roommates. I wouldn't make such an assumption or draw such a conclusion. I don't automatically think "sexual involvement" when I hear of opposite sex roommates. I can't and won't make that call without more.

I am not debating the "rightness" or "wrongness" of a man and woman living together. I m not debating the risks etc. I am simply talking about drawing conclusions not based on facts.

Okay, Please help me to understand exactly what you are sharing.

For the record, I'm not being confrontational. I'm just trying to understand the reason for the question of men and women roommates?

Do you agree with a man and a woman (unmarried to each other) living together as roommates?

Do you feel that there are reasons to validate this?

Are you saying that a man and a woman have a right to live as such and not be 'suspect'?

I agree that no one should falsely accuse anyone, however, why would a Christian put themselves in such a position of 'suspect'. God isn't going to place anyone in that position.

The fact is that it's unnecessary and should never be validated. It's a human choice which indeed becomes suspect and a lack of faith, that God has better living arrangements for them which will not put them in a position of being tempted or suspected of such.

This is why 'folks' get messed up, by using rhymns and reasons for doing what the world does and the Church needs to come correct on this deception. God simply doesn't place us in positions of compromise.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

James 1:13

The word 'evil' is a strong word .... it's not being applied to you. Okay? I just want to make that clear.

Again, this is not controversy nor an afront towards you. I'm just trying to understand the reason for the question.

Blessings to you...

[LoveisYou]

Originally Posted by Shimmie

Okay, Please help me to understand exactly what you are sharing.

For the record, I'm not being confrontational. I'm just trying to understand the reason for the question of men and women roommates?

Do you agree with a man and a woman (unmarried to each other) living together as roommates?

Do you feel that there are reasons to validate this?

Are you saying that a man and a woman have a right to live as such and not be 'suspect'?

I agree that no one should falsely accuse anyone, however, why would a Christian put themselves in such a position of 'suspect'. God isn't going to place anyone in that position.

The fact is that it's unnecessary and should never be validated. It's a human choice which indeed becomes suspect and a lack of faith, that God has better living arrangements for them which will not put them in a position of being tempted or suspected of such.

This is why 'folks' get messed up, by using rhymns and reasons for doing what the world does and the Church needs to come correct on this deception. God simply doesn't place us in positions of compromise.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

James 1:13

The word 'evil' is a strong word .... it's not being applied to you. Okay? I just want to make that clear.

Again, this is not controversy nor an afront towards you. I'm just trying to understand the reason for the question.

Blessings to you...

@Shimmie I am not questioning the validity of a man and woman living together, I have heard both sides of the issue from Christians and actually lean toward your reasoning.

I was simply explaining to you that I was responding to another poster's statement that there is always something more. I don't believe there is always something more, I am careful in making conclusions about people's lives based on assumptions alone - that is the specific issue that I responded to in my second post. Again I am not debating the validity of opposite sex roommates, I asked a question, someone responded, and I responded to that poster. You responded to my response, and I provided clarification (I hope). That's all.


Blessings to you.

[LittleGoldenLamb]

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[nathansgirl1908]

Originally Posted by LittleGoldenLamb

Perhaps not as clear as you thought.

hmmm. I guess. I just figured since my post was heavy on the drunken behavior comments and situations where you are alone and tempted, that it was clear I wasn't talking about the average situation where someone is accosted at a bus stop or mugged or something.

I'm just noting what is "common sense" for one is not for another --sometimes it is because people are willfully missing the obvious, other times it's not as obvious.

You may be right. But deep down I think most people know they shouldn't drink to the point of oblivion. Maybe they aren't as aware on the other issues like not going to a man's house after a date if you just met him or something lie that. But I have to wonder why that would even be the case why DON'T they know that? Is it because instead of teaching women things like that, women want to focus more on labeling rape as an act of dominance and get deep about it and focus on telling women they should be able to go to his house and not have anything happen?

[Laela]

You know what is sad about all this? There are men (and women) with questionable character who can put up a good facade. Saying "I'm Christian" is not enough. Sadly, this is how people get shocked and appalled when a 'pastor' or 'uncle' or someone they think they know does something vile to a child or woman. It's an age-old "secret" in the black community where family members are molesting children and the mothers/girlfriends are looking the other way (sometimes blaming the child) instead of dealing with the issue. "I know why the Caged Bird sings" the book, and "Precious" the movie attempted to address this issue.
Rape is not a sex crime, it's an act of violence by someone who feels they have no control. The devil goes to church, too.
When Jesus handpicked the 12 disciples, He said "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!". The devil goes to church, too.

Originally Posted by nicola.kirwan

I don't think we need to change our view of men. Women are capable of molestation...but should every woman be treated as a potential abuser?

There's an element of common sense to it. Don't put yourself in situations where you are vulnerable to men whose character you do not know. Many women are victimized by men they know, but simply knowing a man does not mean he is of good character. And I wouldn't leave my children with someone just because they're family.

Sent from my LS670 using LS670

[Shimmie]

Originally Posted by LoveisYou

@Shimmie I am not questioning the validity of a man and woman living together, I have heard both sides of the issue from Christians and actually lean toward your reasoning.

I was simply explaining to you that I was responding to another poster's statement that there is always something more. I don't believe there is always something more, I am careful in making conclusions about people's lives based on assumptions alone - that is the specific issue that I responded to in my second post. Again I am not debating the validity of opposite sex roommates, I asked a question, someone responded, and I responded to that poster. You responded to my response, and I provided clarification (I hope). That's all.


Blessings to you.

Okay... I'm sorry for misunderstanding.

[LittleGoldenLamb]

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[dicapr]

LittleGoldenLamb, I couldn't have said it better myself. Yes women make silly and dangerous decisions everyday. We should teach one another how to stay safe. However, as long as society still views rape as an act of sex rather than a voilent act there will be those who see prevention as part of a woman's responsibility.

[LoveisYou]

@LittleGoldernLamb I couldn't agree more! Let every man be responsible for his own actions.

[nathansgirl1908]

*sighs and shakes head*

[LittleGoldenLamb]

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[nathansgirl1908]

There's no degree of powerlessness that we fail to acknowledge. Here's my perspective:
I'm a practical person. I generally have little tolerance for sitting around and trying to be deep and philosophical about this. I just look at what is happening and desire a solution/remedy. Having said that, I will be blunt and say that it doesn't matter how you characterize rape. It's a violent sex act. Duh. That doesn't require as much thought or debate as people would like. What does require thought is what women can do to protect themselves. At this point, it's not WORKING to just sit there and say the men shouldn't do it. That's not accomplishing anything. I believe we would much more progress if women in general would stop trying to be philosophical about it and be more proactive. Teaching women that no matter what, he shouldn't touch you is not getting the job done. They need to be taught, if they don't already know, to be more cautious and careful. It's not rocket science that he shouldn't rape you. But I'm sure women see how difficult it is to deal with a rape case in court. As cold as it sounds, don't give them ammunition to work with. And if we want to be honest with ourselves, there also tend to be red flags in a man's character and behavior that women willingly ignore until it's too late.