First time self perming RANT!!!!!

vkb247 said:

You all are tripping! The only reason that a neutralizing shampoo is a neutralizer is because it is acidic and counteracts the alkaline perm. So every shampoo and conditioner (they are made to be acidic like hair - check the citric acid and other ingredients added to lower the ph) is going to neutralize to some extent. I totally agree that neutralizing is a necessary and crucial step for maintaining healthy hair but not having neutralizing shampoo is not the end of the world.

Girl you just needed to rinse really well. Also wash and condition really well. If you have vinegar than do a vinegar rinse. If you have keracare poo (low ph) than definitely use that. Rinse, rinse, and rinse some more.

People are always going on about neutralizing 50-11 times but if you rinse your hair really well and get most of the perm out before you start neutralizing than all that neutralizing shouldn't be necessary.

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Because thanking you was not enough. I had to quote it to thank you "in person".

People neutralizing 50-11 times are helping themselves though but it's not the shampoo that is doing it - it's the RINSING 50-11 times that stopped the relaxer in its tracks.

I agree with Malibu, if only for this reason...if you know that something COULD be bad, why risk seeing what happens? This is the same reason that doctors encourage us to eat healthier and stop smoking and all sorts. Why risk smoking if we know it COULD lead to cancer? There's no guarantee, but the possibility is enough for most people. It's only my opinion, but if it were my hair, I would just go get the shampoo, just to be on the safe side.

Liege4421 said:

I agree with Malibu, if only for this reason...if you know that something COULD be bad, why risk seeing what happens? This is the same reason that doctors encourage us to eat healthier and stop smoking and all sorts. Why risk smoking if we know it COULD lead to cancer? There's no guarantee, but the possibility is enough for most people. It's only my opinion, but if it were my hair, I would just go get the shampoo, just to be on the safe side.

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Not using neutralizing shampoo is NOT bad. Improper rinsing is what is bad. She'll be fine. She seems to have rinsed enough with the multiple shampooing that she did that she had to rinse out and the deep conditioning treatment that she did twice that she had to rinse out.

Seriously, her hair will NOT fall out.

I don't care what anyone says! Best believe I'm using neutralizing shampoo. && I will neutralize 5 million times, rinse, and neutralize another 5 million times! better safe then sorry. it's not like the neutralizing shampoo will kill you.

ETA:if i wasnt such an IMPORTANT step it wouldnt be included in relaxer kits.

GodMadeMePretty said:

Not using neutralizing shampoo is NOT bad. Improper rinsing is what is bad. She'll be fine. She seems to have rinsed enough with the multiple shampooing that she did that she had to rinse out and the deep conditioning treatment that she did twice that she had to rinse out.

Seriously, her hair will NOT fall out.

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I completely appreciate your point, but I agree with Malibu that we are here to build healthy hair, not to say "well, the hair won't fall out, so I guess it's okay." You are correct that rinsing is one key step; however, I must point out that there is a reason why neutralizing shampoo was created, and it wasn't for beauty suppliers to make more money. In the end, if there is a risk of damage to the hair, it's a small step to use a shampoo that was created to completely rid the hair of relaxer inside the hair shaft, which rinsing alone cannnot do. Chemicals are the number one "killers" of our hair, everything else you do is almost reversible, not fully stopping an agent that was created to break the bonds of our hair doesn't make much sense to me, but I respect that everyone has their own methods. If it works for you, then do what you do!

Liege4421 said:

I completely appreciate your point, but I agree with Malibu that we are here to build healthy hair, not to say "well, the hair won't fall out, so I guess it's okay." You are correct that rinsing is one key step; however, I must point out that there is a reason why neutralizing shampoo was created, and it wasn't for beauty suppliers to make more money. In the end, if there is a risk of damage to the hair, it's a small step to use a shampoo that was created to completely rid the hair of relaxer inside the hair shaft, which rinsing alone cannnot do. Chemicals are the number one "killers" of our hair, everything else you do is almost reversible, not fully stopping an agent that was created to break the bonds of our hair doesn't make much sense to me, but I respect that everyone has their own methods. If it works for you, then do what you do!

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I'm natural so I don't relax anymore but I relaxed for years prior to going natural in 2003. Rinsing is THE key step. I just don't think she should be scared unnecessarily by constantly saying she needs neutralizing shampoo. Her hair will remain healthy despite her not using it.

Neutralizing shampoo is absolutely necessary. Just because rinsing is very important doesn't make neutralizing shampoo any less important.

Women have trouble with relaxers because they tend to ignore the directions or make up their own rules about relaxing, and then they wonder why "their hair just can't take a relaxer."

If someone follows the directions then 99.9% of the time there won't be any problems, but if someone keeps pushing their luck thinking that the rules don't apply to them, their hair will break.

ETA: God Made Me Pretty, I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you, my post just happened to go up after yours.

GodMadeMePretty said:

I agree with vkb. Neutralizing IS the important step, but shampoo isn't necessary for neutralizing. Rinsing for a minimum of 5 minutes will stop the processing of the relaxer. Affirm Fiberguard, if I remember correctly, has the reconstructing step in between the relaxer and the shampoo. There's even a non-professional perm that you can buy off the shelf that has an intervening step as well. Now why would they do that step prior to shampooing if you NEEDED the shampoo to do the neutralizing? Wouldn't that make your hair break off because it's still processing?

Proper rinsing is necessary for neutralizing. Shampoo is not necessary for that step. Most stylists don't rinse ANYBODY for 5 minutes after their relaxer. FIVE FULL MINUTES is what perm manufacturers recommend.

People wonder why they don't have hair on their heads and/or their hair is snapping off - because their stylists are not following manufacturer's suggestions. Rinsing does the neutralizing. Special shampoos are unnecessary.

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To the bolded: The point of the reconstructing step is to help build up the hair's strength BEFORE locking it into place with the neutralizing shampoo.

Before I started transitioning and used to texlax my hair, the relaxer I used had a "Post-Perm treatment" that required you to leave it on WITHOUT RINSING for 10 minutes THEN add your neutralizing shampoo to let that sit for a few minutes and rinse.

To the bolded: Several people have issues with chemical services because their stylists don't neutralize completely. Rinsing is common sense and obviously the first step but not the only step. The chemicals are still working, albeit slower, inside the hair. Adding a neutralizing shampoo is Part II of what rinsing started but can't finish alone.

Ok, I'm not trying to beat the deadhorse, but the average pH of skin and hair is 4.5 and 5.5 (acidic). The average pH of a relaxer is 10 (alkaline or basic). Water is 7 (neutral). Water alone cannot balance a basic process (relaxing) because it is neutral, not acidic. All shampoo is slightly acidic because hair is slightly acidic. However, neutralizing shampoos have a higher acid content to neutralize the basic relaxer and then bring the hair back to its slightly acidic, natural state. If you leave the relaxer in without neutralizing, you have a high likelihood of leaving your hair in a basic state (of about 10), which, if you do, can leave your hair rough, not very resilient, and easy to break. I found the last tidbit of information on the american association of the advancement of science website, because I really want to make sure I'm learning, too! At the very least, rinsing alone will leave the hair with a pH of 7, which, although neutral, is not the natural state of the hair. Again, if not neutralizing works for some, that's great. I've never even relaxed myself, so I suppose I'm not in a real position to offer advice if I haven't done it. Whatever decision you make, I hope it helps your hair goals!

No one is saying that you shouldn't neutralize. If you have neutralizing shampoo than use it but you can neutralize without neutralizing shampoo.

All conditioners and shampoos are acidic so if you use them after relaxing than your hair will not be at level 10 ph (if the relaxer was 10) or 7 ph (most tap water is not exactly 7ph either btw because it is not pure water). That just doesn't make sense. Shampoos like Keracare are aroung 5 ph which is why they can be used for neutralizing.

Please keep in mind that I was refering to the situation at hand. The lady didn't have the neutralizing shampoo. I don't understand why it's good advice to freak out and tell her that her hair is going to drop out. I suggested to her other ways should could accomplish what she needed to without that particular poo. I think that this is very useful information for anyone who finds themselves in her situation for whatever reason.

Bottom line: Neutralizing is simply lowering the pH. There are many ways to do this. That's simple science and factual information. Healthy hair comes with knowledge of what you are actually doing to your hair.

Thanks GodMadeMePretty, you make too much sense.

Sistaslick said:

Yeah I talk about all of this in my relaxer application article in the part where I talk about the mid-protein treatment. Once you understand how pH works, you'll be able to understand lots of things about hair. Most people think the neutralizer magically neutralizes the relaxer creme, but it's only the physical removal of the creme by rinsing and neutralizer's pH that accomplishes this. So the question of whether the relaxer is still processing during this stage is a very, very common one.



In fact, there are people who don't use neutralizer at all. I wouldn't recommend it, but you could actually get away with doing that.

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Sistaslick said:

It is the pH that stops the action of the relaxer, not necessarily a "neutralizer." Everything you apply to the hair after you rinse the relaxer, including the water, has a neutralizing effect on the hair. The chemical reactions needed for processing the hair are not compatible or possible at low pHs.

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Can we get an update????

bump. update please

OMG thanks so much for the overwhelming response!! I'm sorry I haven't been up here to respond quicker but basically my hair is fine (for now) I didn't have the neutralizing shampoo because the kit I got was Mizani and it didn't come with any. So anyway, after being terrified after I saw the initial responses, I went to sleep and just hoped for the best. From reading sistaslick's article, I knew that neutralizing was necessary part of relaxing ur hair but I was hoping that neutralizing shampoo wasn't necessary - that rinsing and conditioning really well would neutralize the hair. But I called Mizani technical hotline (isn't that crazy, they actually have a technical hotline) and the white lady on the phone told me to RUN and get some neutralizing shampoo and rewash my hair. I was at work so I told my boss I was feeling crappy and took the rest of the day off

The pharmacy I gotten the perm from only had higher end relaxers and none of them come with shampoo (so the more u pay, the less u get I guess?) so I had to go to the other side of town and try and find some

I ended up at CVS and they didn't have neutralizing shampoo by itself so I had to buy an entire perm kit just for the neutralizer that it comes with. I went home and got to work. I knew that if the suds were pink I'd prob cry bc my hair would probaly be going down the drain along with the soap but if it were white I'd be a little resentful because I just missed out on a whole day's pay and bought a perm kit that I'll never use again for nuttin.....
the suds were white but I wasn't really resentful because better safe than sorry. I neutralized and neutralized and then DC'd after. I was gonna roller set but I felt bad for my hair.... all the washing and pulling and perming I been doing to it in the last 24 hr... I just let it air dry in two pig tail braids.... I'm hoping for the best. I took some pics for the thread but my ends look so tired and ragged (definitely time for a cut) that I'm a little ashamed to put em up.

vkb247 said:

Bottom line: Neutralizing is simply lowering the pH. There are many ways to do this. That's simple science and factual information. Healthy hair comes with knowledge of what you are actually doing to your hair.
.

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Thank you so much for the advice. I called my hair dresser at home to tell her that I permed my hair myself and didn't use neutralizing shampoo. She said that she doesn't exactly use neutralized shampoo on my hair because my hair has never responded well to it and its very drying but she uses shampoos that neutralize namely keracare or mizani. I don't know how to react to that bc the mizani technical woman told me that using neutralizing shampoo is a MUST but my hair dresser of 10 yrs admitted she hasn't used it on my hair for the last few years.

anti-babymama said:

I'm sorry that happened, but I'm confused as to why you had to run out and get a perm solely based on his comments. I hope your sweet, caring, wonderful, boyfriend who loves you just as you are went and got you some neutralizing shampoo....

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aww it wasn't his fault... I was clearly not thinking with my head. The only thing running through my mind was that if Mr. Oblivious over here took notice that my hair has been looking rough, then everyone at my job noticed about 2 weeks ago and everyone at my school has been snickering for bout a month... now I know it was DEFINITELY not that serious but man, vanity can kill ya

Liege4421 said:

Ok, I'm not trying to beat the deadhorse, but the average pH of skin and hair is 4.5 and 5.5 (acidic). The average pH of a relaxer is 10 (alkaline or basic). Water is 7 (neutral). Water alone cannot balance a basic process (relaxing) because it is neutral, not acidic. All shampoo is slightly acidic because hair is slightly acidic. However, neutralizing shampoos have a higher acid content to neutralize the basic relaxer and then bring the hair back to its slightly acidic, natural state. If you leave the relaxer in without neutralizing, you have a high likelihood of leaving your hair in a basic state (of about 10), which, if you do, can leave your hair rough, not very resilient, and easy to break. I found the last tidbit of information on the american association of the advancement of science website, because I really want to make sure I'm learning, too! At the very least, rinsing alone will leave the hair with a pH of 7, which, although neutral, is not the natural state of the hair. Again, if not neutralizing works for some, that's great. I've never even relaxed myself, so I suppose I'm not in a real position to offer advice if I haven't done it. Whatever decision you make, I hope it helps your hair goals!

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u guys are so knowledgeable... thank u!

Okay and lastly, my hair is pretty underprocessed in lots of places. And its a little rough - i dk if this is from me washing it so much or the air dry but its usually really soft so thats my only concern right nwo

Glad you and your hair made it thru ok!