Is being in a fraternity or sorority against Christianity?!?

[divya]

Question...has anyone come across a well put-together website that explains the origins of sororities and fraternities and whether or not these Scripturally coincide with the Christian lifestyle?

Really and truly, I likely am somewhat indifferent to them because of my upbringing, lack of family legacy and my personality. However, what if my children are different from me and are interested? How should a Christian mother advise her children on these matters?

It would be great to explore this issue further...

[msa]

Do I go around my office, saying repent or be damned? No!LOL But I do speak out everywhere I go, whether it be to pass out tracks or just to ask someone if they've accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. Did I speak out when I was in a sorority? Yes! Did it change anything? No! That was when I knew it was time to get out! Frankly, the reason I speak out is because I'm not just concerned about my own eternal state. Considering over 140,000 people die each day, I am very concerned about the eternal salvation of others, not just my own. Do I still have to die daily to sin? Oh yes! Even though I will NEVA EVA be perfect it is my goal to strive for such until He returns.

You say that you have not found one scripture but I have, plenty of them. I won't share them because as you say you have consulted the bible already so my posting them here will only reiterate what you've already read to no affect. When I look back on the process to gain membership ALONE, that was enough for me to run for the hills! And I often wonder why didn't I see that!

Am I damning you to hell? NO, no absolutely not because aside from this forum I have no clue who you are.

Why isn't it your place to ask me? I am NOT condemning you for not doing it however, if you say you glorify GOD through your organization I would think that would be an excellent way. No?

Lastly, you did not answer my very last question. That's fine if you don't want to answer and my aim is not to cause strife or confuse anyone reading these post however, my goal is to just ask the questions because when my heart was open to receive the truth, I didn't have to pray for it, it was right there in the bible. I was just blind to it at first.

Since you did speak out when you were in a sorority, then you know it's possible for others to do it too. You know it's not mutually exclusive. The funny thing is, EVERYONE in my chapter is saved and is actively Christian and involved with their church.

Please please please, if you have scriptures, share them. PLEASE. I've been asking over and over and over again and no one has shared any. I want to know if I missed something or if I read something and just didn't take it to heart. This discussion would have been much richer if it had been based on scripture from start to end, and not opinion.

Let me go back and see what question I didn't answer.

[msa]

Question...has anyone come across a well put-together website that explains the origins of sororities and fraternities and whether or not these Scripturally coincide with the Christian lifestyle?

Really and truly, I likely am somewhat indifferent to them because of my upbringing, lack of family legacy and my personality. However, what if my children are different from me and are interested? How should a Christian mother advise her children on these matters?

It would be great to explore this issue further...

Divya, you can pick up the book The Divine Nine. It has a concise history of each of the BGLO's that are in it. From there you can research each one individually by going to their websites or calling their national headquarters. They all have loads of information available.

[divya]

Divya, you can pick up the book The Divine Nine. It has a concise history of each of the BGLO's that are in it. From there you can research each one individually by going to their websites or calling their national headquarters. They all have loads of information available.

Thank you! I found it at the public library. All are checked out, but I put it on hold. But I am also just interesting in frats and sorors in general, not just historically black organizations. Do you know of any general books?

[msa]

Finally, the question of all time is why oh why oh why do these orgs need secrets/oaths, letters, Egyptian symbols just to serve their community or have a sense of fellowship or sister/brotherhood.

1) GLO's do not need letters, etc. etc. to serve their community or have a sense of sister/brotherhood. That all comes from the commitment to uphold certain values and to be of service to others (whether that's your sister's or the black community in general).

2) If you want to talk about the structure, well everything has a structure. National corporations have one, churches have one, basketball teams have one. GLO's have the same basic structure that most traditional greek letter organizations have. They all have requirements for membership, some type of commitment members must make (ie an oath/vow/etc), and some outward sign to denote who they are as a group (ie letters, mascot, key, etc). I don't know about any egyptian symbols though, so I can't help you there.

It's not that orgs "need" all those things, but since they're a certain type of org they generally have certain things as part of their organizational structure. Just like an NBA team has an owner, general manager, a team mascot, etc. etc.

3) Secrecy about the internal workings of an organization is not inherently evil, and many different entities require it. Oaths and vows are not inherently evil either, so I'm not seeing the problem there. Members of the armed forces have to take an oath. Doctors take an oath. The president took an oath.

[msa]

Thank you! I found it at the public library. All are checked out, but I put it on hold. But I am also just interesting in frats and sorors in general, not just historically black organizations. Do you know of any general books?

Hmmm. I can't think of any off the top of my head. I know almost nothing about the white glo's, and only very little about the christian glo's.

Google the National Pan-Hellenic Council. They should list all the glo's that are under them and maybe you can get more info that way.

[star2008]

3) Secrecy about the internal workings of an organization is not inherently evil, and many different entities require it. Oaths and vows are not inherently evil either, so I'm not seeing the problem there. Members of the armed forces have to take an oath. Doctors take an oath. The president took an oath. It's the type of oath, at least the one I know I took that I took issue with. Even before I got out, I used to ask myself why the founders chose to use greek symbols, letters, terms? And what was the meaning behind the process, why we had to go through certain things. After going back and looking at what I went through and comparing it to things that happened in the bible my answer was that there is a natural world, the one we live in, and there is a spiritual world. So things that happen in the natural world have a great spiritual impact that we don't see.

Hmmm.....Let's see some scriptures that were potent to me.

Ephesians 6:12 - Why? Because when I started to see how certain processes, mimicked certain things that happened in the Bible, I knew it was no coincidence and these things had a spiritual meaning behind them that had nothing to do with the organization.

Exodus 20:3-5 - Why? Because the oath that we took, and certain songs and chants that are even sung in stepshows today contradict this commandment.

I John 2:5-17 - Why? Because these organizations are BIG on community service and the websites are packed full of accomplishments of the sorority. You have to admit, there is nothing humble about it. Regardless of what I thought when we did community service. When we did something great for the community the sorority was exalted, NOT God and the sacrifice of Christ. My work was going to the benefit of the sorority. Whenever we were out in the community at certain events we made sure to where para so that people would know who we were representing.

I will post more if you want.

As far as the symbols, (this is purely my opinion) the only symbol I need is Christ and He is the only one I need to identify with. From Him I get my wisdom, understanding, strength, light and whatever else.

I guess this is important to me, because we see blatant sin, and works against God everyday and know this country is full of examples however, it's the things that are not so obvious that are the most dangerous.

[Princess4real]

I say this to 'Princess4real' with the utmost respect but when we come to know GOD's character, we should know that GOD could care LESS about the works ANY of us do!!!! We are all a stench in his nostrils and it is ONLY because of the sacrifice of Jesus dying on the cross that any of us have a chance to gain salvation! My question to you is, as a Christian, with the Great Commission as your motivation, why are members focused so much on the community service that these orgs do when that will NOT get other members who are not saved or the communities that you reach eternal salvation? A lot of the current members of these orgs are saying that they don't participate in the parties, underground hazing, etc, but are you speaking out against it? We can easily say that it's not our problem but I would not want ANYONE to even risk losing their soul so that is why it is our job as disciples of Christ to warn and pray for repentance hearts before God's judgement is cast down.

*Correction* I didn't speak out against partying, I still hang out when I can and I don't see anything wrong with it. When did you become a disciple? Have you always been a disciple? Why do you think the Lord only talks to you and a few others on the LHCF? I can't speak for everyone, but why do you and others assume that we don't know God and that we don't talk to other people about God???

Some people like to shout on corners and some people live to praise the Lord private. Just because you don't see people praising God in the streets, it doesn't mean that they are not doing it. Some people wear their religion on their sleeve and that's fine for them. I know you are going to find this hard to believe, but I love God and thankful for everything he has done for me.

How would you like it if I told you I think I love him more than you and that if you really love him you would have to prove it to me? Why do I have to leave my sorority in order for you to believe that I love the Lord? He may have told you not to join an organization, but he told me to go for it and do good things and I'm cool with that.

P.S. Thanks for not wanting me to lose my soul, but I'm comfortable with my walk with God.

[missann]

No, I do not believe their elite, but people wanting to know why people join sororities comes up alot around these parts and it always turns into bashing and that is what I do not understand. To bash something you don't know about and to go off of he say or she say is ridiculous to me. Some people have explained 19 million times why they joined one and it never fails that someone will come in and try to provide proof that sororities are bad. One of my all time favorite reasons for not to join one is, I was more mature than the other ladies on campus.

So why is that reason (or any reason) so funny? Do you think it's impossible for a certain group of ladies to come across as immature or simply "extra"? I can understand a mature person not feeling the need to pledge an organization in order to conduct community service or other activities.

This sentiment is confusing. Again it seems as though you assume everyone desires to join a sorority and is jealous if they aren't in one. You're projecting the same "bashing" dynamic you accuse non-members of exercising.

[myoung]

So why is that reason (or any reason) so funny? Do you think it's impossible for a certain group of ladies to come across as immature or simply "extra"? I can understand a mature person not feeling the need to pledge an organization in order to conduct community service or other activities.

This sentiment is confusing. Again it seems as though you assume everyone desires to join a sorority and is jealous if they aren't in one. You're projecting the same "bashing" dynamic you accuse non-members of exercising.

Let me start by some organizations no longer say Pledge because of the stigma behind it. This is their way of speaking out against those things that they do NOT believe in.

I think that what Princess4Real might have been trying to say is that if a person does not want to join a certain organization for whatever reason then there isn't anything wrong with that....clearly there is something for everyone and this is the reason why there are a variety of organizations. But in the meantime, don't try to put yourself on a pedestel or more importantly, down others in order to justify your reason for not wanting to join. If the mature person was really interested in the organization and their mission they would look at the big picture and possibly wait to join a grad chapter instead of downing the entire Organization or organizations. If not, maybe they can just find another one (a Church ministry, NAACP, educational field or whatever) that is more in line with their interests.

Another thing, I hear alot of people saying that they do not need to join a Sorority to perform community service. The funny thing is those are the same folks that I have yet to see perform any community service.

Just my two cents...now we can get back to whether or not it is against Christianity.

[Princess4real]

So why is that reason (or any reason) so funny? Do you think it's impossible for a certain group of ladies to come across as immature or simply "extra"? I can understand a mature person not feeling the need to pledge an organization in order to conduct community service or other activities.

This sentiment is confusing. Again it seems as though you assume everyone desires to join a sorority and is jealous if they aren't in one. You're projecting the same "bashing" dynamic you accuse non-members of exercising.

When people say that it seems like they think only immature women join a sorority, IMO. I'm sorry, but I do find that to be funny if that is what the person believes. I see we are not getting anywhere, enjoy your weekend Miss Ann.

[Princess4real]

Let me start by some organizations no longer say Pledge because of the stigma behind it. This is their way of speaking out against those things that they do NOT believe in.

I think that what Princess4Real might have been trying to say is that if a person does not want to join a certain organization for whatever reason then there isn't anything wrong with that....clearly there is something for everyone and this is the reason why there are a variety of organizations. But in the meantime, don't try to put yourself on a pedestel or more importantly, down others in order to justify your reason for not wanting to join. If the mature person was really interested in the organization and their mission they would look at the big picture and possibly wait to join a grad chapter instead of downing the entire Organization or organizations. If not, maybe they can just find another one (a Church ministry, NAACP, educational field or whatever) that is more in line with their interests.

Another thing, I hear alot of people saying that they do not need to join a Sorority to perform community service. The funny thing is those are the same folks that I have yet to see perform any community service.

Just my two cents...now we can get back to whether or not it is against Christianity.

Exactly!

[NitaChantell]

I'm soooooooo excited about this thread!!! I am seriously considering two NPHC Sororities, but I'm sooo indecisive.I'm doing A LOT of research, but it can go both ways! I have a few questions for you ladies in BLGOs:
1.How did you chose? Like, how did you know "this is for me?"
2.What about hazing..it's supposed to be illegal...but I hear a lot of scary/crazy things on my campus
3. What's the purpose of social isolation??????
4.Why does it cost so freaking much????????????????

[Mai Tai]

I am not greek but I agree with the fact that regardless of what organization you choose, whether it is a GLO, a professional or social org., etc the key is that you have to pray about it first.

I think we live in a world where anything secret, hidden, or privileged is automatically deemed evil. Instead of people having their own beliefs, and respecting those of others, many people find comfort in condemning others, thus exhaulting(sp) themselves. It is such a hypocrisy.

If I understand the tone of this thread correctly then I can conclude that all GLO are evil-doing organizations, that are rooted in satanism and the occult because members take a vow, are sworn to secrecy, and wear letters and symbols? Was that the whole point of the thread? Or was this subject matter introduced so that Non-greek Christians, can learn about Christians in GLOs and hopefully form some sort of understanding that can help someone decide whether joining a sorority is a good choice to make?

Were the extreme religious views in this thread meant for people who take other types of vows also? Are we supposed to go through life never making promises to anyone or anything in fear of being struck down?

What about those who take marriage vows? Or the soldier who pledges to protect his country? Should we not pledge allegiance to the flag in grade school? Should Obama be wearing a cross on the lapel of his suit jacket, instead of the American flag?

If one can vow to a marriage in the PRESENCE of GOD, recite an oath of loyalty to the Republic of the United States of America to remain one nation UNDER GOD, then why can't one join a sorority/fraternity still PRAISE GOD?

[Princess4real]

I am not greek but I agree with the fact that regardless of what organization you choose, whether it is a GLO, a professional or social org., etc the key is that you have to pray about it first.

I think we live in a world where anything secret, hidden, or privileged is automatically deemed evil. Instead of people having their own beliefs, and respecting those of others, many people find comfort in condemning others, thus exhaulting(sp) themselves. It is such a hypocrisy.

If I understand the tone of this thread correctly then I can conclude that all GLO are evil-doing organizations, that are rooted in satanism and the occult because members take a vow, are sworn to secrecy, and wear letters and symbols? Was that the whole point of the thread? Or was this subject matter introduced so that Non-greek Christians, can learn about Christians in GLOs and hopefully form some sort of understanding that can help someone decide whether joining a sorority is a good choice to make?

Were the extreme religious views in this thread meant for people who take other types of vows also? Are we supposed to go through life never making promises to anyone or anything in fear of being struck down?

What about those who take marriage vows? Or the soldier who pledges to protect his country? Should we not pledge allegiance to the flag in grade school? Should Obama be wearing a cross on the lapel of his suit jacket, instead of the American flag?

If one can vow to a marriage in the PRESENCE of GOD, recite an oath of loyalty to the Republic of the United States of America to remain one nation UNDER GOD, then why can't one join a sorority/fraternity still PRAISE GOD?

AMEN!

[divya]

I am not greek but I agree with the fact that regardless of what organization you choose, whether it is a GLO, a professional or social org., etc the key is that you have to pray about it first.

I think we live in a world where anything secret, hidden, or privileged is automatically deemed evil. Instead of people having their own beliefs, and respecting those of others, many people find comfort in condemning others, thus exhaulting(sp) themselves. It is such a hypocrisy.

If I understand the tone of this thread correctly then I can conclude that all GLO are evil-doing organizations, that are rooted in satanism and the occult because members take a vow, are sworn to secrecy, and wear letters and symbols? Was that the whole point of the thread? Or was this subject matter introduced so that Non-greek Christians, can learn about Christians in GLOs and hopefully form some sort of understanding that can help someone decide whether joining a sorority is a good choice to make?

Were the extreme religious views in this thread meant for people who take other types of vows also? Are we supposed to go through life never making promises to anyone or anything in fear of being struck down?

What about those who take marriage vows? Or the soldier who pledges to protect his country? Should we not pledge allegiance to the flag in grade school? Should Obama be wearing a cross on the lapel of his suit jacket, instead of the American flag?

If one can vow to a marriage in the PRESENCE of GOD, recite an oath of loyalty to the Republic of the United States of America to remain one nation UNDER GOD, then why can't one join a sorority/fraternity still PRAISE GOD?

Marriage and sorority/fraternity life are not comparable for purposes of this discussion. The first is an institution given to humanity by God, the second is not. I believe we stand in dangerous ground when we demote Divine institutions to the level of human ones...

ETA: Under God was added to the Constitution in 1954, and it is not required for one to recite the pledge.

[LovinLocks]

Yeah, it is!

I haven't even read the entire thread but I am almost sure some good Christian here answered the why-fors. Read any post about allegiance and there you have it.

This was "interesting" for me to acknowledge 'cause nobody was more 'down' for DST than I. Yet, I love it when the Bible speaks of being "a two-edged sword; discerning intentions of the heart". God's word ain't no joke.

[LovinLocks]

[COLOR=Blue]

Please please please, if you have scriptures, share them. PLEASE. I've been asking over and over and over again and no one has shared any. I want to know if I missed something or if I read something and just didn't take it to heart. This discussion would have been much richer if it had been based on scripture from start to end, and not opinion.

Okaaay ya wanna talk scripture lemme take a stab at this, please. I have counted no less than 13 scriptures and could go on and on, but the discerning individual will see. These scriptures were chosen based upon the reader having inside knowledge of what sorority/fraternity pledging is allllll about and keeping it real.

Jehovah’s Jealousy. Jehovah describes himself as “a God exacting exclusive devotion.” (Ex 20:5, ftn; De 4:24; 5:9; 6:15) He also says: “Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, he is a jealous God.” (Ex 34:14) Over what and with what kind of jealousy? Not with the envious, selfish jealousy of humans. It is a jealousy, a zeal or ardor for his holy name, concerning which he himself says: “I will show exclusive devotion for my holy name.”—Eze 39:25.

The Scriptures make it clear that, to please God, one must “flee from idolatry.” (1 Cor. 10:14) It is also well known that the second of the Ten Commandments says: “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion.” (Ex. 20:4, 5) Yet national emblems bear such likenesses, and they are viewed as sacred, which means that saluting them takes on a religious significance. As pointed out by Arnold Toynbee, it is worship that is given to the flag; and, bearing this out, the governor of Virginia in the United States not long ago declared: “I not only respect, I worship the flag of my country.” In the light of these facts it can be seen that it is not out of disrespect for the flag, but out of obedience to Jehovah God, that Christians refrain from saluting the flag.

But, someone may protest, how can you say that flags come under that Scriptural prohibition when the Bible itself shows that even the Israelites had ensigns or standards around which their three-tribe divisions gathered while in the wilderness? (Num. 2:2) In this connection the comment made in McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopædia is of interest. After discussing the Hebrew words used, it says: “Neither of them, however, expresses the idea which ‘standard’ conveys to our minds, viz. a flag.” Furthermore, they were not viewed as sacred, nor were any ceremonies associated with their use. They simply served the practical purpose of signs, showing the people where to gather.

NATIONAL ANTHEMS

Standing while the national anthem is played carries with it a significance similar to saluting the flag. In fact, the flag is frequently displayed when the anthem is played, so that, to Jehovah’s witnesses, participation in one ceremony would be comparable to participation in the other.

In this connection the Bible records an incident that is very much in point. The third chapter of Daniel reports that in ancient Babylon King Nebuchadnezzar set up an image, a symbol of the State, and commanded the people to worship it when certain music was played. It was in effect a patriotic ceremony, and participation was viewed as evidence of loyalty. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, three faithful Hebrew servants of God, refused to participate, not because of any disloyalty to the State but because they reserved their worship for Jehovah God, who requires exclusive devotion. When officials took steps to punish them, Jehovah unmistakably demonstrated his approval of the course of his servants by delivering them unsinged from the fiery furnace.

Oftentimes national anthems are, at least in part, hymns or prayers that have been set to music. They give expression to petitions or praise to God. For that reason, as reported in the New York Times of August 30, 1962, after the United States Supreme Court had ruled that school officials could not compose a prayer and then have the students repeat it as part of their school activities, the school board involved in the case wanted to adopt part of the national anthem as the official school prayer.

Since the matter of prayer is involved in the national anthem, what the Bible has to say on this subject is also pertinent. It is true that there are many religious leaders who regularly in their churches pray for the various institutions of the world and who would therefore see nothing amiss in a patriotic anthem that expressed like sentiments. However, those who are governed by the Word of God cannot pray for the perpetuation of a system that the Bible shows to be out of harmony with God and for that reason due to pass away. (Jas. 4:4; 1 John 2:17) They recall God’s command to his prophet Jeremiah, who lived in the midst of a people who professed to serve God but whose society was permeated with stealing, murdering, committing of adultery, false swearing and idolatry: “Do not pray in behalf of this people, neither raise in their behalf an entreating cry or a prayer nor beseech me, for I shall not be listening to you.” (Jer. 7:9, 16; 11:14; 14:11) The situation today is not at all unlike the one that prevailed in Jeremiah’s time, and Christians wisely take note of God’s specific command regarding prayer under such circumstances. They also are aware of the precedent that Jesus Christ set when he said: “I make request, not concerning the world.” (John 17:9) Therefore, it is not out of any self-righteousness on their part, but in imitation of Christ and out of obedience to God that Jehovah’s witnesses refrain from indicating their participation in the sentiments of the occasion by standing when the national anthem is played.

Of course, it is true that not all national anthems include petitions to God. Some are war songs extolling the country and recounting the nation’s fight for independence or the wars fought to preserve its sovereignty. But this does not change the situation as far as the Witnesses are concerned. They cannot exult over the wars of any nation. They are governed by the inspired scripture that says: “Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly.” (2 Cor. 10:3, 4) They submit to the judgment of God that requires his people to be at peace. As foretold at Isaiah 2:4:God “will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears . . . neither will they learn war any more.” All this emphasizes the fact that Christians are to be no part of the world. This is as Jesus said it would be. With reference to his followers he declared: “They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.” (John 17:14)

[msa]

^^^LovinLocks, maybe I'm just dense and not making the connection, but what does that article have to do with the subject at hand?

[LovinLocks]

^^^LovinLocks, maybe I'm just dense and not making the connection, but what does that article have to do with the subject at hand?

Hello msa,

Your question just made me realize something. I started out by saying "These scriptures were chosen based upon the reader having inside knowledge of what sorority/fraternity pledging is allllll about and keeping it real." Well other people's pledging experience and knowledge may have been unlike mine (duh, to self). So, the article may seem like gobblety gook. I was trying to respond without dogging out sorority practices (again which is why I was targeting folk with knowledge of pledging which is not too far fetched from what many have seen portrayed in the media). So, even going by that example alone exclusive devotion (as far as Christianity is concerned) and as far as scripture goes to one . . . Jehovah God. The article goes on to discuss idolatry . . . again, I can not speak for everyone's Greek experience however I have firsthand knowledge that it is ripe with idolatry among other things. That's what the article has to do with whether or not Frats and Sor. are against Christianity.