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  #61  
Unread 04-18-2012, 09:05 PM
Crown Crown is offline
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Default Re: Do you take the Bible literally?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina18 View Post
So, does that mean you have the knowledge of the truth, at least on those parts where you have been shown what is right and wrong by God, or are you not there yet at all i.e. you don't know the truth?
It's not my first post in this forum and I said that I am learning and advancing.

What do you think?

And about you?
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  #62  
Unread 04-19-2012, 04:07 AM
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Default Re: Do you take the Bible literally?

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Originally Posted by Crown View Post
It's not my first post in this forum and I said that I am learning and advancing.

What do you think?

And about you?
I'm not saying it is. I'm trying to understand whether "learning and advancing" means you are heading towards acquiring the knowledge of the truth and do not have it yet, or whether it means you have it, and are gaining more. Just trying to gain a better understanding of your response.

I believe "having the knowledge of the Truth" is having the Holy Spirit who helps you understand the word of God, the truth, Jesus Christ, the things of God etc.:

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me (John 15:26)

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth (John 17:17)

Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty {untruth!}, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully {untruth}; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost {those without the knowledge of the truth, without the Holy Spirit, and thus unable to understand the gospel}: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ {the truth}, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord {the truth!}; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ (2 Cor 4:1-6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crown View Post
Sorry, Hebrews 10:26 is not saying this.
This is why I prefer to study the whole context :
(I will skip on some verses, no need to be too long)

Heb. 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
38 And, “But my righteous one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back.”

39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

Paul is talking about some so called Christians who willfully reject the Faith to return to their old pleasures.
Ok, so those who wilfully rejected the faith to return to their old pleasures were not forgiven of that, in light of Hebrews 10:26?

Last edited by Carolina18; 04-19-2012 at 06:06 AM. Reason: Typo
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  #63  
Unread 04-19-2012, 07:17 AM
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Default Re: Do you take the Bible literally?

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Originally Posted by Carolina18 View Post
I'm not saying it is. I'm trying to understand whether "learning and advancing" means you are heading towards acquiring the knowledge of the truth and do not have it yet, or whether it means you have it, and are gaining more.
Today, I know more than yesterday and less than tomorrow.


Quote:
Just trying to gain a better understanding of your response.
For what exactly?


Quote:
I believe "having the knowledge of the Truth" is having the Holy Spirit who helps you understand the word of God, the truth, Jesus Christ, the things of God etc.:...
I agree with you.
But go and see out there: all is claiming to have the Holy Spirit.
It does not matter if I (or someone else) tell you: I have it!


Quote:
Ok, so those who wilfully rejected the faith to return to their old pleasures were not forgiven of that, in light of Hebrews 10:26?
Please, take the time to read the entire chapter, and you will have the answer.
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  #64  
Unread 04-19-2012, 11:18 AM
Carolina18 Carolina18 is offline
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Default Re: Do you take the Bible literally?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crown View Post
Today, I know more than yesterday and less than tomorrow.

For what exactly?

You mentioned earlier to Poohbear that we should also focus on the second element of Hebrews 10:26 ("the knowledge of the truth"). I agree, and from that verse, in order for Jesus to no longer be the sacrifice for sin, one must sin wilfully AFTER they receive the knowledge of the truth through the Holy Spirit. It appears now that the disagreement in this thread is over what constitutes "wilful sin" since, unless I am wrong, we believe we have the knowledge of the truth i.e. the Holy Spirit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crown View Post
I agree with you.
But go and see out there: all is claiming to have the Holy Spirit.
It does not matter if I (or someone else) tell you: I have it!
Right, and that's why we rely on the Word. A witness must agree with scripture and we are commanded as follows:

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ (1 Peter 3:15-16)

Please don't think I'm not looking for an unnecessary argument. I'm under the impression that the purpose of this forum is for us to reason with Scripture and seek the truth, and Hebrews 10:26 is understandably an emotive verse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crown View Post
Please, take the time to read the entire chapter, and you will have the answer.
Yes, I have read the chapter, and my reason for asking you to elaborate on what you said earlier is because I don't see the difference between those who commit the same sin after they have been reproved/ repented of it, and those who "willfully reject the Faith to return to their old pleasures." Is not sin after admonition/ repentance a return to your old pleasures?

To "despise" the law is to break it, to disobey it, to reject it. As God told David: "Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon (2 Samuel 12:10). Also:

"Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Judah, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have despised the law of the LORD, and have not kept his commandments, and their lies caused them to err, after the which their fathers have walked" (Amos 2:3-5).

Numbers 15:22-36 is instructive on this point, and ties in very well with Hebrews to elaborate on the issue of wilful sin:

And if ye have erred, and not observed all these commandments, which the LORD hath spoken unto Moses, Even all that the LORD hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the LORD commanded Moses, and henceforward among your generations; Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.

And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance: And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.

And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses."

Ok, back to Hebrews 10. I prefer to use the KJV, so I will re-paste verses 26-30:

"26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

The man who despised (broke) Moses' law was stoned to death, he died a physical death, which Hebrews 10:28 reminds us of. Verse 29 goes on to say that a much sorer punishment is in store for those who "do despite unto" or "despise" the Spirit of grace - those who disobey the Holy Spirit. What is a much sorer punishment than physical death? Spiritual death, no?

So, when you have been admonished by the Holy Spirit for a sin you have committed (i.e. you have been made aware of your sin, you now know the truth, you are no longer ignorant of that sin) and you disobey the Holy Spirit by committing that sin again, you are despising the Spirit of grace. That is wilful sin. Where does that leave those who continue sinning despite being admonished by the Holy Spirit more than once not to?

Last edited by Carolina18; 04-19-2012 at 11:34 AM.
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  #65  
Unread 04-19-2012, 02:28 PM
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Default Re: Do you take the Bible literally?

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Originally Posted by Carolina18 View Post
You mentioned earlier to Poohbear that we should also focus on the second element of Hebrews 10:26 ("the knowledge of the truth"). I agree, and from that verse, in order for Jesus to no longer be the sacrifice for sin, one must sin wilfully AFTER they receive the knowledge of the truth through the Holy Spirit. It appears now that the disagreement in this thread is over what constitutes "wilful sin" since, unless I am wrong, we believe we have the knowledge of the truth i.e. the Holy Spirit.
It's not just a one point, it's a learning journey.



Quote:
Please don't think I'm not looking for an unnecessary argument. I'm under the impression that the purpose of this forum is for us to reason with Scripture and seek the truth, and Hebrews 10:26 is understandably an emotive verse!
It is not, if you are taking it in context. I don't understand the disagreement. For a Christian, some sins are instantly eradicated and for some, it takes more time, although this person is aware about this sin.

Quote:
Yes, I have read the chapter, and my reason for asking you to elaborate on what you said earlier is because I don't see the difference between those who commit the same sin after they have been reproved/ repented of it, and those who "willfully reject the Faith to return to their old pleasures." Is not sin after admonition/ repentance a return to your old pleasures?
I understand what you are saying, and believe me I am doing my best, trying to explain what is in my mind. Maybe, the real difference is who believes or not in predestination.

The difference between your belief and mine is that you take just one level on a person.

For a fervent Christian, this is WAR between the spiritual you (general) and the carnal you.
The battle won in the spiritual can take time to be manifested in the flesh.

But thanks God!
God knows his child who will be manifested as victorious and his enemy!

My life as a parent allows me to understand God, lol a little more.
He is our Father.
*Jane, why do you do this again? I told you: don’t do this! Was it not clear that you would not do this anymore?
*Yes, Father! You are right. I don’t know why I did it. I did my best to not fall again, but…
*Jane, you are my child and I love you. If you continue, I will crush you till you understand that I mean it: do not do this!
*Father, I am so needy, I am nothing without you. Oh Lord, help me!


Quote:
The man who despised (broke) Moses' law was stoned to death, he died a physical death, which Hebrews 10:28 reminds us of. Verse 29 goes on to say that a much sorer punishment is in store for those who "do despite unto" or "despise" the Spirit of grace - those who disobey the Holy Spirit. What is a much sorer punishment than physical death? Spiritual death, no?

So, when you have been admonished by the Holy Spirit for a sin you have committed (i.e. you have been made aware of your sin, you now know the truth, you are no longer ignorant of that sin) and you disobey the Holy Spirit by committing that sin again, you are despising the Spirit of grace. That is wilful sin. Where does that leave those who continue sinning despite being admonished by the Holy Spirit more than once not to?
When I don’t understand something or I think that I understand and others think differently, I put it before the throne and I wait upon the Lord.
What I am saying is not important.
Only Him reveals the truth.
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  #66  
Unread 04-19-2012, 03:23 PM
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Default Re: Do you take the Bible literally?

[QUOTE=Carolina18;15753539]


Yes, I have read the chapter, and my reason for asking you to elaborate on what you said earlier is because I don't see the difference between those who commit the same sin after they have been reproved/ repented of it, and those who "willfully reject the Faith to return to their old pleasures." Is not sin after admonition/ repentance a return to your old pleasures?

To "despise" the law is to break it, to disobey it, to reject it. As God told David: "Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon (2 Samuel 12:10). Also:

So, when you have been admonished by the Holy Spirit for a sin you have committed (i.e. you have been made aware of your sin, you now know the truth, you are no longer ignorant of that sin) and you disobey the Holy Spirit by committing that sin again, you are despising the Spirit of grace. That is wilful sin. Where does that leave those who continue sinning despite being admonished by the Holy Spirit more than once not to?[/QUOTE]


To the 1st bolded:
In Hebrews 10:26 you have to know that this letter is specifically to those who have are saying that they will reject Jesus Christ as the Messiah and go back to the Jewish faith (that still claimed the Messiah had not yet come). Thats the faith Paul is talking about. They have gone back to their old beliefs and have "eliminated" the ultimate sacrificial lamb. And if Jesus no longer fills that position then there is NO other worthy sacrifice left to give in atonement for sins.

As concerning David
2 Sam 12: 13
"Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die."
David sinned...willfully...but was forgiven, though he did NOT escape consequences for his actions.

Becuase the truth is...what sins do we really commit that we dont know are sins?

To the 2nd bolded:
Where does that leave them? Are you saying that this means that they are condemned now? Going to hell?
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Unread 04-19-2012, 04:18 PM
auparavant auparavant is offline
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Default Re: Do you take the Bible literally?

A side-question:


For those who don't believe in "hell," how do they explain the punishment for disobeying G-d and rejecting Him finally and totally? Where will that occur?
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  #68  
Unread 04-19-2012, 05:37 PM
Carolina18 Carolina18 is offline
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Default Re: Do you take the Bible literally?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoilyFields View Post
To the 1st bolded:
In Hebrews 10:26 you have to know that this letter is specifically to those who have are saying that they will reject Jesus Christ as the Messiah and go back to the Jewish faith (that still claimed the Messiah had not yet come). Thats the faith Paul is talking about. They have gone back to their old beliefs and have "eliminated" the ultimate sacrificial lamb. And if Jesus no longer fills that position then there is NO other worthy sacrifice left to give in atonement for sins.

As concerning David
2 Sam 12: 13
"Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die."
David sinned...willfully...but was forgiven, though he did NOT escape consequences for his actions.

Becuase the truth is...what sins do we really commit that we dont know are sins?
I'm glad you brought that up, because what is key about David's sin was that he repented of it and did not commit it again. It is important to see what "wilful" is to God according to scripture, rather than relying on what WE think it is. Notice David's response in verses 5-6 to Nathan's story on the rich man's use of the poor man's sheep:

"And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die: And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity." David adopted a response we would probably take: the rich man knew that act was wrong and did it, so it was wilful! Fortunately for David, God is more merciful than that but He has a clear limit. Let's see how Solomon responded to his admonition in 1 Kings 11:

1But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites:

2Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.

3And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.

4For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.

6And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.

7Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.

8And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.

9And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,

10And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.

11Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.

12Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son."

Verse 9 says God admonished Solomon twice before rending the kingdom from him because he did not repent of that sin. David on the other hand confessed his sin and repented of it after his first admonition. And I believe two admonitions by God are the "space to repent" spoken of in Revelations 2:20-22:

"Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds."

From Solomon's example, the "space to repent" we are given by God is "two admonitions". Failing to repent after two admonitions is wilful sin. That is when our heart is no longer right with God, and that is why believers are commanded thus:

"A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself" (Titus 3:10-11)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoilyFields View Post
To the 2nd bolded:
Where does that leave them? Are you saying that this means that they are condemned now? Going to hell?
My point is, our belief must be based in scripture, including our definitions of sin. It doesn't matter what we think "wilful", or "those born of God do not sin" mean, if it is not backed up with concrete scriptural examples of how those things play out. That is the only way we can know that we are on the right path.

It is not scripturally correct to claim that all sin if wilful. Our ability to commit sin does not mean it is always wilful. The Numbers 15 verses I pasted in my response to Crown speak of sins done in "ignorance". Luke 23:34 says, "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots."

Last edited by Carolina18; 04-19-2012 at 05:46 PM.
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Unread 04-19-2012, 08:38 PM
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Default Re: Do you take the Bible literally?

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Originally Posted by Carolina18 View Post
I'm glad you brought that up, because what is key about David's sin was that he repented of it and did not commit it again. It is important to see what "wilful" is to God according to scripture, rather than relying on what WE think it is. Notice David's response in verses 5-6 to Nathan's story on the rich man's use of the poor man's sheep:

...

Verse 9 says God admonished Solomon twice before rending the kingdom from him because he did not repent of that sin. David on the other hand confessed his sin and repented of it after his first admonition. And I believe two admonitions by God are the "space to repent" spoken of in Revelations 2:20-22:

...
From Solomon's example, the "space to repent" we are given by God is "two admonitions". Failing to repent after two admonitions is wilful sin. That is when our heart is no longer right with God, and that is why believers are commanded thus:

"A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself" (Titus 3:10-11)
In this case, how do you explain Matthew 18:21?

Mat. 18:
20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus answered,
“I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

And just before, the Messiah was saying : I am in the midst of who gather in my name, His Church, the ecclesia.
Note that Peter is not talking about anyone, he is talking about a brother (in the Greek, the word is adelphos : http://biblos.com/matthew/18-21.htm)

I am not excusing the sin of someone, it's not my purpose : I hate sin.
But, do you think that God expects of us what He will not do for us?


Quote:
My point is, our belief must be based in scripture, including our definitions of sin. It doesn't matter what we think "wilful", or "those born of God do not sin" mean, if it is not backed up with concrete scriptural examples of how those things play out. That is the only way we can know that we are on the right path.

It is not scripturally correct to claim that all sin if wilful. Our ability to commit sin does not mean it is always wilful. The Numbers 15 verses I pasted in my response to Crown speak of sins done in "ignorance". Luke 23:34 says, "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots."
This is so true for all of us!
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Unread 04-19-2012, 09:15 PM
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Default Re: Do you take the Bible literally?

Quote:
Originally Posted by auparavant View Post
A side-question:


For those who don't believe in "hell," how do they explain the punishment for disobeying G-d and rejecting Him finally and totally? Where will that occur?

I am only responding to my statement not to anyone else, I personally didn't say that I didn't believe in hell. It's not an existence now is what I was saying. Please forgive if I jumped the gun

Hell is actually this entire earth at the End of the world. No one is in Hell and burning. The Majority believes that right? Based on what? Hell more times then one in the bible mean the grave, which makes sense because that is what it really is when it completes its task it's just a grave. but an any case hell most times in the bible really means the grave. This would be a really good study if anyone is serious about finding the real meaning in the bible for its existence now. I personally think it would be a great study to break down the scriptures that cause others to believe hell is in existence and that people are actually in it. It would be full of way to many contradictions with other scriptures, I think it would be very interesting and helpful to my studies though.
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Unread 04-20-2012, 03:20 AM
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Default Re: Do you take the Bible literally?

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Originally Posted by Crown View Post
In this case, how do you explain Matthew 18:21?

Mat. 18:
20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus answered,
“I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

And just before, the Messiah was saying : I am in the midst of who gather in my name, His Church, the ecclesia.
Note that Peter is not talking about anyone, he is talking about a brother (in the Greek, the word is adelphos : http://biblos.com/matthew/18-21.htm)

I am not excusing the sin of someone, it's not my purpose : I hate sin.
But, do you think that God expects of us what He will not do for us?
Hey Crown. I believe that verses on sin must be looked at in the context of Hebrews 10, 1 Kings 11, Numbers 15, 2 Samuel 12, Titus 3 etc. So, Jesus had to be talking about ignorant sin in order for His instruction to tie in with the other passages. Note that my previous post said, failing to repent after two admonitions is wilful sin, not sinning twice; the number of admonitions, not the number of times that sin is committed. The key is whether you have been admonished of a particular sin by the Holy Spirit on two occasions i.e. shown your fault clearly on both occasions and instructed to repent of it. God gives us a "space to repent" of it. [/QUOTE]

As you noted earlier, the process of being cleansed of sin is a gradual one, it does not happen at once, but the dividing line I see in the Bible is ignorant v wilful, not habitual v occasional or anything else. We are cleansed and forgiven of ignorant sins (those we have not been admonished of yet) continually, but not wilful sins.

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This is so true for all of us!
I agree, and that is why I have been asking questions, and asking for scriptural examples of people's statements on what "sin" is. We can't just rely on what feels right to us or what we think is right if there is no scriptural backing for it, and I believe the answers we need are in the Bible.
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Default Re: Do you take the Bible literally?

Hey @Carolina18 forgive me if I just hazed over but I'm confused on whether or not you actually answered "the 2nd bolded" directly and with scripture. Does that mean, in your interpretation, that those who continue to willfully sin, whether it's after two or a million admonitions can no longer repent and will not inherit the kingdom?
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Default Re: Do you take the Bible literally?

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Hey @Carolina18 forgive me if I just hazed over but I'm confused on whether or not you actually answered "the 2nd bolded" directly and with scripture. Does that mean, in your interpretation, that those who continue to willfully sin, whether it's after two or a million admonitions can no longer repent and will not inherit the kingdom?
Hi LaFemmeNaturelle. That is what I believe the scriptures I pasted above to be saying, in terms of a particular sin that one has been admonished of. I haven't found Biblical examples of believers who committed the same sin again after being admonished of it twice, repenting of it and being made right before God again. What is your take on 1 Kings 11? Is there an indication anywhere in the Bible of Solomon repenting of that sin and having a heart that was right before God again, as David's was?

My point is that our definitions of "sin" e.g. "those born of God should not sin" should be backed up by examples of those who were born of God in the Bible.

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Default Re: Do you take the Bible literally?

Honestly, I do not debate on here. I am a medical student and do not have time for that. I ask questions to consider later on during my studies but I cannot just look things up on hand. It will probably be weeks before I have an answer for you. The only thing I can think of now is Luke 17 and I believe someone brought the point up earlier of why would God ask us to (and say that we MUST) rebuke and forgive our brother who sins against us and repents repeatedly when he does not do the same for us. My understanding of rebuke and admonish are that they are quite similar in definition. So we are expected to forgive the sins of others but God will no longer forgive us? I'm sure he too is forgiving that "brother" if he tells us that we should as well. Maybe I'm taking it out of context. I'll make a note to study it later.

Hopefully I don't sound like I'm dismissing you. I only check these forums during study breaks so I just don't have the time to really get into it.
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Default Re: Do you take the Bible literally?

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Honestly, I do not debate on here. I am a medical student and do not have time for that. I ask questions to consider later on during my studies but I cannot just look things up on hand. It will probably be weeks before I have an answer for you. The only thing I can think of now is Luke 17 and I believe someone brought the point up earlier of why would God ask us to (and say that we MUST) rebuke and forgive our brother who sins against us and repents repeatedly when he does not do the same for us. My understanding of rebuke and admonish are that they are quite similar in definition. So we are expected to forgive the sins of others but God will no longer forgive us? I'm sure he too is forgiving that "brother" if he tells us that we should as well. Maybe I'm taking it out of context. I'll make a note to study it later.

Hopefully I don't sound like I'm dismissing you. I only check these forums during study breaks so I just don't have the time to really get into it.
@the bold - I did not say that. 2 Samuel 12 clearly indicates that David was given a chance to repent of his sin after being admonished by God through Nathan. God IS forgiving, much more so than we are (as 2 Samuel 12:5-6 shows!), but 1 Kings 11 indicates that He also has a limit. I agree with Jesus' teaching about forgiveness. We are instructed as follows:

"Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted" (Galatians 6:1)

But we are also told:

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject. Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself (Titus 3:10).

@the red - no worries. I'm getting quite busy myself and will likely not check this thread for a while, but if there is anything you find out later during your studies please PM me.

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Default Re: Do you take the Bible literally?

@Carolina18

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Verse 9 says God admonished Solomon twice before rending the kingdom from him because he did not repent of that sin. David on the other hand confessed his sin and repented of it after his first admonition. And I believe two admonitions by God are the "space to repent" spoken of in Revelations 2:20-22:

From Solomon's example, the "space to repent" we are given by God is "two admonitions". Failing to repent after two admonitions is wilful sin. That is when our heart is no longer right with God, and that is why believers are commanded thus:

"A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself" (Titus 3:10-11)



My point is, our belief must be based in scripture, including our definitions of sin. It doesn't matter what we think "wilful", or "those born of God do not sin" mean, if it is not backed up with concrete scriptural examples of how those things play out. That is the only way we can know that we are on the right path.

The scripture you gave is example of Church discipline (titus). It spoke about those who were divisive in church and how to deal with them. It didnt say not to forgive them and welcome them back into right fellowship upon repentance. Another example of this would Matt 18:15-18
" Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

The scripture @Crown gave was evidence of Jesus admonishing us to forgive constantly (regardless of weather willful or unwillful offences.)

Solomon was admonished twice and punished. That was him. I dont see where this is established as Gods only standard to all. Nor do I see where Solomons punishment meant that he was not forgiven. David suffered punishment as well. God gave Jezebel space to repent...it doesnt say he told her twice. So labeling "willful" sin as something you commit after being admonished twice simply has no scriptural basis. God struck Ananias and his wife dead after having lied. Peter rebuked them...and God passed judgement. There was no space of two admonitions.
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Default Re: Do you take the Bible literally?

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@Carolina18




The scripture you gave is example of Church discipline (titus). It spoke about those who were divisive in church and how to deal with them. It didnt say not to forgive them and welcome them back into right fellowship upon repentance. Another example of this would Matt 18:15-18
" Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

The scripture @Crown gave was evidence of Jesus admonishing us to forgive constantly (regardless of weather willful or unwillful offences.)

Solomon was admonished twice and punished. That was him. I dont see where this is established as Gods only standard to all. Nor do I see where Solomons punishment meant that he was not forgiven. David suffered punishment as well. God gave Jezebel space to repent...it doesnt say he told her twice. So labeling "willful" sin as something you commit after being admonished twice simply has no scriptural basis. God struck Ananias and his wife dead after having lied. Peter rebuked them...and God passed judgement. There was no space of two admonitions.
It seems that much of our disagreement stems from semantics (KJV v NIV). For example, @ the first, bold, I take it you are looking at "heretick" in the sense of the NIV's "divisive"? Rather than go into it, all I'll say is that a Google search on "heretic or divisive" would indicate that some believe (as I) that the NIV departs from the Greek meaning of that word to mean something that was not intended.

@the second bolded, I have at least provided a scriptural example for the ignorant/ wilful sin distinction, and have seen none for your habitual v occasional distinction. And my point remains the same throughout. If God says "those born of God do not sin", He would clearly tell us how that sin works. It is not enough to simply believe what we think it says if there is no clear example supporting our interpretation of a particular scripture.

I guess we will just have to disagree on these points. I won't be able to come on the Forum for a while, so I guess that's it from me. I've enjoyed the discussion.

Last edited by Carolina18; 04-20-2012 at 09:19 AM.
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Default Re: Do you take the Bible literally?

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Hey Crown. I believe that verses on sin must be looked at in the context of Hebrews 10, 1 Kings 11, Numbers 15, 2 Samuel 12, Titus 3 etc. So, Jesus had to be talking about ignorant sin in order for His instruction to tie in with the other passages. Note that my previous post said, failing to repent after two admonitions is wilful sin, not sinning twice; the number of admonitions, not the number of times that sin is committed. The key is whether you have been admonished of a particular sin by the Holy Spirit on two occasions i.e. shown your fault clearly on both occasions and instructed to repent of it. God gives us a "space to repent" of it.

As you noted earlier, the process of being cleansed of sin is a gradual one, it does not happen at once, but the dividing line I see in the Bible is ignorant v wilful, not habitual v occasional or anything else. We are cleansed and forgiven of ignorant sins (those we have not been admonished of yet) continually, but not wilful sins.


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Hi LaFemmeNaturelle. That is what I believe the scriptures I pasted above to be saying, in terms of a particular sin that one has been admonished of. I haven't found Biblical examples of believers who committed the same sin again after being admonished of it twice, repenting of it and being made right before God again. What is your take on 1 Kings 11? Is there an indication anywhere in the Bible of Solomon repenting of that sin and having a heart that was right before God again, as David's was?

My point is that our definitions of "sin" e.g. "those born of God should not sin" should be backed up by examples of those who were born of God in the Bible.
I wonder if you are not confounding punishment and forgiveness.

What is a particular sin? How do you define a particular sin?
The Bible tells us that sin is transgression of the law.

We are living in the time of Grace, is not failing to love God and to love your neighbor a sin, a wilfull sin?


Let’s look at the two great commandments:

Mat. 22: 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

And another one:
Mat. 6: 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

How many times we sin against these commandments?
How many times the Father is saying to us : you are selfish or you are wasting my time, seek Me first or you have to die on your SELF?
How many times God have admonished each of His children and will continue to do so by His grace?

I have nothing more to add on this subject.
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@Crown & @CoilyFields

I wanted to comment on the scripture in Matthews 18. I know you have made comments to my other posts that I have not addressed yet, but I just wanted to go through the whole context of this scripture about forgiveness in a civil manner, not to debate or argue, just to discuss, please take this into consideration.

I will start with verse 21:

21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.



Right here we see where Jesus has instructed Peter to forgive a brother who sins against him seventy times seven, which we assume means over and over. But we must read further. Jesus did not stop there...


23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.


Right here we see Jesus giving us a parable about a servant owing 10,000 talents to this lord. This lord basically was saying if you don't pay, then you, your wife, children, and everything you have will be sold. But then this servant fell down and worshipped him offering to pay it all. So the lord decided to forgive his debt where he wouldnt have to pay it. Then Jesus continues on with his parable:


28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.


Right here we see that the servant had a fellowservant of his own who owed him money. Only a hundred pence which is probably way less than ten thousand talents. The servant would not forgive his own fellowservant and decided to throw him into prison. This is after the lord had forgiven him of a greater debt.


31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


Right here we see that someone told the lord what happened. He called the servant and questioned him about not forgiving his own fellowservant after he done forgave him. And then we see in verse 34 that the lord decided to make the servant pay his debt. It was no longer forgiven.

So in this parable, Jesus is really wanting us to show love and compassion to others. This is one of his greatest commandments. It's not that God will forgive you over and over for sin that you know is wrong (non-ignorant sin), but that God will not forgive you or show compassion on you if you do not forgive your brothers, neighbors, and people here on earth.

Let me know if you understand, need clarity, or if this makes any sense to you.

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Default Re: Do you take the Bible literally?

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I personally think it would be a great study to break down the scriptures that cause others to believe hell is in existence and that people are actually in it. It would be full of way to many contradictions with other scriptures, I think it would be very interesting and helpful to my studies though.
That would be interesting indeed, because most Christians in most times and places have always held that Hell exists, and that the souls of the damned are in it.
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