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  #61  
Old 04-08-2012, 08:21 AM
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Default Re: The Christian Left...

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Originally Posted by LadyRaider View Post
Jesus never talked about homosexuality as a sin.
Quote:
Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery…

John 4:22 You [Samaritans] worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Jesus and the Apostles were Jews. The Bible has to be understood within the framework God Himself established, not the Greco-Roman one modern man has adopted.

Quote:
Where do you get that He said to renounce anyone?

"Go forth and renounce..." No... Jesus didn't appear to be calling for a police force to go out and separate the good from the bad.
He renounced the Pharisees because of their man-made doctrines. He renounced sin, which is self (who has not thought or behaved in a way that says we know better than our Creator?).

To be holy is to be separate. Did He not separate the Israelites from the rest of the nations? Did He not separate them further by His laws and commands? Did that separating change when Jesus amended the old pact by His blood baptism? No, we became spiritual Israel (Romans 2:29, Romans 4:16, Romans 8:16, Galatians 3:7, Galatians 4:26, Galatians 6:15-16, Hebrews 12:22-23, Ephesians 2:11-13, Ephesians 2:19-20, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11 ), whom God knew before He created man (Acts 13:48, Romans 8:29-30, 1 Corinthians 2:7, Ephesians 1:3-12, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, 2 Timothy 1:9).

Quote:
What is His call for action if you are a Christian? What does He say He wants his followers to do?
“Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Me.” See Matthew 10:38, Matthew 16:24, Mark 8:34, Mark 10:21, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27.

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Isaiah is one of my favorite prophets, but he doesn't speak to this issue as in his time people were sacrificing lambs to cleans themselves of sin.
Isaiah was Israelite who already knew what sexual sin was. That has not and will never change.

Quote:
Why did Jesus die on the cross if we are capable of living sinless lives?
Through Him (His sacrifice and the indwelling of the Holy Ghost), we have a chance to become sinless. As we die to self and obey Him (doing faith), sin decreases.
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  #62  
Old 04-08-2012, 10:23 AM
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Default Re: The Christian Left...

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Originally Posted by LadyRaider View Post
Jesus never talked about homosexuality as a sin. Where do you get that He said to renounce anyone?

"Go forth and renounce..." No... Jesus didn't appear to be calling for a police force to go out and separate the good from the bad.

What is His call for action if you are a Christian? What does He say He wants his followers to do?

Isaiah is one of my favorite prophets, but he doesn't speak to this issue as in his time people were sacrificing lambs to cleans themselves of sin.

Why did Jesus die on the cross if we are capable of living sinless lives?
Jesus is God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. God said that homosexuality is a sin, and this is reiterated throughout Scripture:
  • Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."1
  • Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
  • 1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
  • Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."
Homosexuality is clearly condemned by the Bible. It goes against the created order of God who created Adam, a man, and then made Eve, a woman. This is what God has ordained as the normal means by which we carry out his command to fill the earth (Gen. 1:28).



Also, Jesus spoke about Hell 15 times in the New Testament (moreso than any other Biblical figure)--it would behoove us to heed His admonishments.


The moral truths uttered by Isaiah are still moral truths applicable to us today. All of the Bible is inspired Scripture--the Word of God.

Jesus died on the cross in order to FREE us from sin--not to let us wallow in it with impunity. Light cannot abide with darkness, holiness cannot abide with sinfulness--God is Holy; to approve of sin or make it morally permissible is contrary to His nature.
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  #63  
Old 04-08-2012, 10:32 AM
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Default Re: The Christian Left...

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The Christian Right has been wrong historically every time. They are not a force for progress, but a way to stunt progress. The Christian Left were the abolitionists. The Christian Right opposed the Civil Rights movement. Their agenda is not so much religious as it is to maintain the status quo. Their focus on abortion and gay rights as the biggest societal sin is in conflict with both the teachings of Jesus AND their own past teachings when they supported slavery (a societal sin) and elevated "PERSONAL" relationships with God as the way to go.

Every great human movement toward progress came from the left and was opposed by the right. They are just wrong wrong wrong every time.
This statement is very biased and untrue, and once again it elevates a political ideology (one that often conflicts with the Gospel) to the status of pseudo-religion.
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  #64  
Old 04-08-2012, 12:14 PM
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Default Re: The Christian Left...

Again... the Hebrew/Jewish Texts are great. Love them. Why did Jesus die on the cross?

In the time of the Hebrew texts, people sacrificed lambs to clear their sins.

After Jesus died, there was a new covenant. Why did he die? Just a dramatic act so we could know how powerful he was and be fearful?

This is Easter. Jesus died and now he is risen. Why?
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  #65  
Old 04-08-2012, 12:28 PM
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Default Re: The Christian Left...

No power in the sky above or in the earth below--indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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  #66  
Old 04-08-2012, 12:42 PM
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Default Re: The Christian Left...

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Again... the Hebrew/Jewish Texts are great. Love them.
They are also the infallible Word of God and make up most of the Bible.

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Originally Posted by LadyRaider View Post
Why did Jesus die on the cross?
1. To establish the New Covenant by sacrificing Himself as our Paschal Lamb and atoning for sin.
2. To free us from sin and death.
3. To reconcile us with God and establish us as His holy people


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In the time of the Hebrew texts, people sacrificed lambs to clear their sins.
Yes, and Christ is the Lamb of God, whose sacrifice is sufficient and eternal. The sacrifices offered under the Mosaic Covenant was the foreshadowing of Christ.

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This is Easter. Jesus died and now he is risen. Why?
To be victorious over death, for the wages of sin is death. By dying He destroyed our death, by rising He restored our life. We are to imitate Jesus Christ and live as children of God, in righteousness and purity.
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  #67  
Old 04-08-2012, 12:58 PM
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Default Re: The Christian Left...

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No power in the sky above or in the earth below--indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Indeed! But you confuse this with acceptance of sin or overlooking sin.

1 John 5:16
16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality.

1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.

Luke 12:5
"But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

2 Peter 2:1-22
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.


In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.


For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)—if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.


Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.



They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.



These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.



It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”
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  #68  
Old 04-08-2012, 02:17 PM
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Default Re: The Christian Left...

None of us are perfect. No one is without sin. If you put homosexuality on the sin scale, I daresay it'd be lesser ranked than mean gossip about a co-worker.

Jesus died for our sins. We are saved by Grace. We do nothing and can do nothing to deserve the Grace of God. It is a gift. It is a beautiful gift that I am not worthy of having, but that He gave it to me anyway. I'm not going to devalue that gift by thinking I'm some how more deserving that someone else. No one is more deserving than anyone else. God knows we can't be perfect, He knows we are merely dust.

He died on the cross. God gave His only begotten son so that we might have everlasting life. That's a huge sacrifice. It wasn't done for just the "good" people. Or for only the people who did certain things for him. To think that cheapens the gift. A regular old mother and father will do things for their children without expecting something in return. Why would God be less of a parent? It was done for everyone.

Nothing can separate us from the gift of God's love.

Our call as Christians? To be Christ in the world. And to care for the least of these. There's no renunciation duties, no judgement duties listed. To be Christlike is to love.

Whose sin is worse than someone else's? How would I know? God knows, but I can't know. I know everyone is a sinner.

And you don't get to say, "but I'm trying not to sin, so I'm different" 1. I don't see how that matters because you are human and you WILL fail. and 2. You don't know what that gay person is thinking in his heart. We all have our struggles.

In Romans 7, the verse before Paul writes how we can not be separated from Jesus's love, he writes of his own sinful flesh. He writes how he can't control his sinful flesh. Yet he knows he is Christ's beloved.

Listen! Jesus' death meant something monumental. And wonderful. We are saved by His Grace. And lucky for ALL of us. Because none of us can earn God's love.

Politically, what's best for the United States is not always the Christian thing, though people tend to try and rationalize things. Politically, might makes right. The United States is the most powerful country in the world and its priority is to stay that way. That's not a Christian concern at all.

What government's duty is usually does NOT coincide with a Christian's duty. When it does, there can be problems. For instance we are BOTH Christians, but we have radically different views on the role Christians should play AND what Christ's death on the cross meant. If two Christians can't agree, how can the US government act as representatives for even the both of us, much less the Jews, atheists, etc that are American citizens?

PS: You quoted Leviticus earlier. Leviticus has some pretty stringent rules in there. Something about the sin of wearing two different fabrics?

Some nice sermons from the Christian Left: http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/u...ch/id422114994 #34 somewhat applies to this discussion.


Happy Easter! He is risen indeed!
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  #69  
Old 04-08-2012, 09:39 PM
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Lightbulb Re: The Christian Left...

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Originally Posted by LadyRaider View Post

None of us are perfect. No one is without sin.

If you put homosexuality on the sin scale, I daresay it'd be lesser ranked than mean gossip about a co-worker.
The key you are missing here is to 'STOP'... No one can remain a gossip, neither can anyone remain in a homosexual lifestyle.

As with any other sin, there is no defense for homosexuality. Along with every other sin, this was dealt with on the same cross that Jesus died upon. It was not singled out as the exceptional sin which can go without repentence.

Out of all the sins, this is the one sin that rises up to be defended and feels that it deserves to be excluded from the Cross.

Don't continue to defend it for there is no defense of it... none.
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  #70  
Old 04-09-2012, 09:07 AM
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Default Re: The Christian Left...

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This is what I think is a large part of the problem with groups like the "Christian Left," they try to sublimate their political ideology into some type of para-religious dogma. Hence their continual suggestions that Jesus was a political Messiah, a social revolutionary, etc. In the end they create a Christ of their own making who condones their sins.

My critique (and many others' critique) of them stems from a clear, firm, and rooted understanding of Christ and the Gospel, and moral objectivity.

Democracy has never (and will never) be undone because of criminalizing abortion. The democratic foundation of our society is not abortion. Abortion is the unjust murder of unborn children--this is morally true. (I agree) Scripture says that willful murder is one of the sins that cry out to God for justice.

Pro-choice and Pro-abortion are the same thing.
I just can't agree with you on that. But as many have said, its just too political. I am not pro-abortion and I never will be FOR the killing of babies. You just can't put everyone in one big box. Nor is it really fair.

Question: What right does a government have to tell you what to do with your body?

This country is supposed to be a separation of church and state, which the Right is blurring the lines (trying to have their cake and eat it too).....As a result, you have these groups such as Christian Left spreading the wrong message and pulling people into the fold for wrong reasons. Both ends of the stick are going about this the wrong way and are not helping improve the Kingdom of God not one bit. All they are doing IMO is creating more extremists...Almost a Christian version of radical Islamic extremism. I suppose a Christian version of Sharia law is what the (far) Right really wants....except when it comes to their money and to be held accountable for being adulterous. As a Christian I don't feel they represent the truth or the Kingdom of God, or me at all.

I won't argue scripture, but its not fair to put everyone in a box based on so-called political terms.
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:16 AM
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Default Re: The Christian Left...

I agree somewhat with @LadyRaider.

I think for me the Biblical law is the Biblical Law. Unfortunately is subject to interpretation. I'm okay with that.

My concern is more with how Christians DECIDE to hold people accountable for certain things. @LadyRaider asked who's sin is worse? My answer is NO ONE's...The liar (little white lies too) burns in the same pit as the homosexual, the adulterer, the murderer....I will say put "unrepentant" in front of all of these.

People can quote scripture to me all day, but what matters is the individual relationship one has with God, and its not going to be the same as others. Even a literal interpretation of the Bible is still subject to that person's interpretation...but what matters to me is what you do in action. Maybe I just know too many hipocrites(sp?)....May be I just respect that everyone is not perfect and I allow for that. I think Jesus does too. Me accepting that doesn't make me a person who accepts sin. I don't have that power or authority. Jesus accepts what he accepts. God loves who he loves. A great example is David and Solomon. Sinners...But loves God. Whom God loves.
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:44 AM
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Default Re: The Christian Left...

Quote:
Hebrews 5:7-10 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to Him who was able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence. Although He was a son, He learned obedience through what He suffered. And being made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.
Everything Jesus taught is in the Old Testament and He quoted it often. He did not abandon His Father’s teachings and to assume such is an insult to the pure, living water of His word and the unleavened bread of His knowledge. It, the Law now written in our hearts, has nothing to do with one sin being greater than another, but true faith and love of Him requires obedience, which should increase over time, not stagnate at a “comfortable” level.

Sacrifices did not cover sins; the holocaust of innocent animals was to be a reminder that Israel deserved the treatment and sometimes got it when the stench of her sin was too great. See Hebrews 9-10, Mark 12:33, 1 Samuel 15:22-23, Psalm 40:6, Psalm 51:16-17, Proverbs 21:3, Ecclesiastes 5:1, Isaiah 1:11-20, Jeremiah 7:20-23, Hosea 6:6, Micah 6:6-8, Amos 5:22-27.

Only God’s shed blood could atone men and satisfy the Law He established.

The problem is when we get caught into any religion (like politics) or mindset, we miss the full measure of His truth. We seek things to shore up our position, holding on to it, but we end up locking out the chance to be further refined (or chastened) into Yeshua’s, the Father’s, image. No individual, group, or institution has the full truth, or immunity from any aspect of human behavior, good or bad. This is why it is imperative to hunt down His Word on our own and let Him teach us (2 Corinthians 7:15, Philippians 1:5-6, Philippians 2:12).

The religion of man’s ego leads to…

Quote:
Matthew 12:25, Mark 3:24-25, Luke 11:17 Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall.
…because…

Quote:
2 Timothy 2:4 No soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to please the one who enlisted him.
…since…

Quote:
Ephesians 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
…for…

Quote:
Mark 11:23 “Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain (symbol for government or leadership), ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him.”
…and…

Quote:
Mark 12:17a Jesus said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.
…therefore…

Quote:
John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But My kingdom is not from the world.”
We have a spiritual war to prepare for and fight. Politics is and will always be yet another distraction. Repent of it, die to it and don on your armor of light!
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:45 AM
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Default Re: The Christian Left...

There is a lot of picking and choosing of sins. If we look at the 10 commandments in total, you not only have "Do not kill," there's also "Do not commit adultery." When Paul runs down his list of those who will not inherit the Kingdom of God (I Cor. 6), plenty of sins are on there that Christians don't look to the government to punish. The question is what things are appropriate for the government to address, not whether we believe that such and such is actually a sin in God's sight.

I believe the insistence of many Christians to get the government to police social morality reflects failure in the Church. What congregations have been unable to accomplish through evangelism and discipleship, they look to accomplish through the coercive power of the state. We can look at the divorce rate, as well as the rate of pre-marital sex in evangelical churches (as well as scandals in other denominations) to see clearly that Christian leaders have, on the whole, not been able to bring the culture of their own churches into line with God, let alone the rest of society. If those with the power of God cannot do it, Congress stands much less of a chance in doing so.

I don't believe the government should recognize gay marriages. But why is the political arena the Christian's battleground? Didn't Paul tell us that we battle not against flesh and blood, and that our weapons are not carnal? Allowing gay people to marry or not to marry is not going to make one person gay or not gay. However that issue turns, it won't make a difference for anyone's deliverance from a sinful life.

The democratic process is purely a reflection of whatever the society is. If enough people in the country want a certain thing, eventually that is what the laws will reflect. For that reason, Christians can't rely on the political process to control the actions of people, because once it becomes a genuine political fight, that means the culture has already changed significantly, and if it continues to do so, the question is not "if" such and such happens, but simply "when." We really have to put our energy into the Great Commission and engaging people one-on-one.
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:53 AM
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Default Re: The Christian Left...

This is a horrible analogy, but when Christians feel as if it is their role to renounce others, I can hear Jesus' voice like I hear the 911 dispatcher in the Zimmerman case: "We don't need you to do that."

But yeah, I think people here have said it so much better than I could. The government's role is far different than the church's role. I am against abortion and could counsel anyone not to do it. There are just too many places where that little soul is needed and can be loved. And who knows what kind of artist or teacher that baby might become. But I feel real uncomfortable with the government making women have babies they don't want.
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:16 AM
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Default Re: The Christian Left...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpened View Post
Everything Jesus taught is in the Old Testament and He quoted it often. He did not abandon His Father’s teachings and to assume such is an insult to the pure, living water of His word and the unleavened bread of His knowledge. It, the Law now written in our hearts, has nothing to do with one sin being greater than another, but true faith and love of Him requires obedience, which should increase over time, not stagnate at a “comfortable” level.

Sacrifices did not cover sins; the holocaust of innocent animals was to be a reminder that Israel deserved the treatment and sometimes got it when the stench of her sin was too great. See Hebrews 9-10, Mark 12:33, 1 Samuel 15:22-23, Psalm 40:6, Psalm 51:16-17, Proverbs 21:3, Ecclesiastes 5:1, Isaiah 1:11-20, Jeremiah 7:20-23, Hosea 6:6, Micah 6:6-8, Amos 5:22-27.

Only God’s shed blood could atone men and satisfy the Law He established.

The problem is when we get caught into any religion (like politics) or mindset, we miss the full measure of His truth. We seek things to shore up our position, holding on to it, but we end up locking out the chance to be further refined (or chastened) into Yeshua’s, the Father’s, image. No individual, group, or institution has the full truth, or immunity from any aspect of human behavior, good or bad. This is why it is imperative to hunt down His Word on our own and let Him teach us (2 Corinthians 7:15, Philippians 1:5-6, Philippians 2:12).

The religion of man’s ego leads to…

…because…

…since…

…for…

…and…

…therefore…

We have a spiritual war to prepare for and fight. Politics is and will always be yet another distraction. Repent of it, die to it and don on your armor of light!
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Originally Posted by nicola.kirwan View Post
There is a lot of picking and choosing of sins. If we look at the 10 commandments in total, you not only have "Do not kill," there's also "Do not commit adultery." When Paul runs down his list of those who will not inherit the Kingdom of God (I Cor. 6), plenty of sins are on there that Christians don't look to the government to punish. The question is what things are appropriate for the government to address, not whether we believe that such and such is actually a sin in God's sight.

I believe the insistence of many Christians to get the government to police social morality reflects failure in the Church. What congregations have been unable to accomplish through evangelism and discipleship, they look to accomplish through the coercive power of the state. We can look at the divorce rate, as well as the rate of pre-marital sex in evangelical churches (as well as scandals in other denominations) to see clearly that Christian leaders have, on the whole, not been able to bring the culture of their own churches into line with God, let alone the rest of society. If those with the power of God cannot do it, Congress stands much less of a chance in doing so.

I don't believe the government should recognize gay marriages. But why is the political arena the Christian's battleground? Didn't Paul tell us that we battle not against flesh and blood, and that our weapons are not carnal? Allowing gay people to marry or not to marry is not going to make one person gay or not gay. However that issue turns, it won't make a difference for anyone's deliverance from a sinful life.

The democratic process is purely a reflection of whatever the society is. If enough people in the country want a certain thing, eventually that is what the laws will reflect. For that reason, Christians can't rely on the political process to control the actions of people, because once it becomes a genuine political fight, that means the culture has already changed significantly, and if it continues to do so, the question is not "if" such and such happens, but simply "when." We really have to put our energy into the Great Commission and engaging people one-on-one.
Christians CANNOT and SHOULD not depend on the political process to mandate the actions of people!


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Originally Posted by LadyRaider View Post
This is a horrible analogy, but when Christians feel as if it is their role to renounce others, I can hear Jesus' voice like I hear the 911 dispatcher in the Zimmerman case: "We don't need you to do that."

But yeah, I think people here have said it so much better than I could. The government's role is far different than the church's role. I am against abortion and could counsel anyone not to do it. There are just too many places where that little soul is needed and can be loved. And who knows what kind of artist or teacher that baby might become. But I feel real uncomfortable with the government making women have babies they don't want.
A big Fat AMEN all day to everything here.

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Old 04-09-2012, 11:14 AM
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Default Re: The Christian Left...

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None of us are perfect. No one is without sin.
Sometimes we do fall into sin through weakness or attachment to certain vices, however God tells us that we should repent (repent literally means to do an about-face and turn away). Repentance isn't just feeling guilty or sorry about what we did, it means to have true moral and spiritual sorrow for having offended God through sin, asking for His forgiveness, and resolving to AVOID sin and situations that would encourage us to sin.


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If you put homosexuality on the sin scale, I daresay it'd be lesser ranked than mean gossip about a co-worker.
That's not what the Bible says. Do you not believe that the entire Bible (both Old and New Testaments) are the inspired Word of God?

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Jesus died for our sins. We are saved by Grace. We do nothing and can do nothing to deserve the Grace of God. It is a gift.
Agreed

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It is a beautiful gift that I am not worthy of having, but that He gave it to me anyway.
Again, I agree, and share this sentiment, Lady.

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Originally Posted by LadyRaider View Post
I'm not going to devalue that gift by thinking I'm some how more deserving that someone else.
I do not think I (or those who agree with what I'm saying) feel more deserving than anyone else. In fact, I am constantly amazed by God's mercy and grace. Each time I go to Church, we always begin worship by asking for Christ's mercy and for His forgiveness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRaider View Post
No one is more deserving than anyone else.
No one is more deserving, but that is not my argument. My argument is not that I deserve God's grace more than an adulterer, or homosexual, or abortionist. My argument is that the adulterer, homosexual, abortionists must heed God's call to repentance and completely turn away from their sins. We cannot love sin and love Christ at the same time. We cannot have two masters.

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Originally Posted by LadyRaider View Post
God knows we can't be perfect, He knows we are merely dust.
This should not be an excuse or license to sin though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRaider View Post
Nothing can separate us from the gift of God's love.
You have to keep that quote in its appropriate context. Obviously the souls in Hell are separated from God's love.

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Originally Posted by LadyRaider View Post
Our call as Christians? To be Christ in the world.
And what did Christ do? OBEY His Heavenly Father, WALKED the path of righteousness. Christ said go and sin no more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRaider View Post
And to care for the least of these.
Caring for the poor, the sick, the downtrodden is definitely a good thing, but this does not mean we should neglect the most important ills of our society--the ones that kill souls and send them to Hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRaider View Post
There's no renunciation duties,
We are to renounce the world, renounce sin, renounce Satan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRaider View Post
no judgement duties listed. To be Christlike is to love.
God does not separate His love from His Justice. Loving us does not mean excusing our sins. Also, when we sin, we are saying to God that we are rejecting Him and His love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRaider View Post
Whose sin is worse than someone else's? How would I know? God knows, but I can't know. I know everyone is a sinner.
The Bible says (and I quoted this earlier) that there are sins not unto death, and then there are sins unto death (mortal sins).

So there are clearly, according to the Bible, some sins that are more grave than others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRaider View Post
And you don't get to say, "but I'm trying not to sin, so I'm different" 1. I don't see how that matters because you are human and you WILL fail. and 2. You don't know what that gay person is thinking in his heart. We all have our struggles.
I may fail, but with God's grace I won't. Sinning is a symptom of being broken, when we are lacking God's sanctifying grace. However sinning is not intrinsic to human nature. What do I mean by this? That we don't sin BECAUSE we're human--we sin because we lack God's sanctifying grace.

Let me give you an example of humans who lack personal sin:

1. Jesus Christ (who is fully God and fully human). Scripture says Christ was like us in every way except sin.
2. The Blessed Virgin Mary, who was conceived and born with God's sanctifying grace infused into her soul. In Luke 1:28 when the archangel Gabriel says "Hail, full of grace..." the "full of grace" is the Greek Kerecharitomene which means to possess the qualities of sanctifying grace.
3. Infants and children under the age of reason
4. The severely mentally disabled
5. ETA--all saints in Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRaider View Post
In Romans 7, the verse before Paul writes how we can not be separated from Jesus's love, he writes of his own sinful flesh. He writes how he can't control his sinful flesh. Yet he knows he is Christ's beloved.
You left out the part where Paul says that Jesus Christ's grace frees him from concupiscence. You also forget Paul's rhetorical question "Should we then sin, or sin more so that grace will abound?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRaider View Post
Politically, what's best for the United States is not always the Christian thing, though people tend to try and rationalize things. Politically, might makes right. The United States is the most powerful country in the world and its priority is to stay that way. That's not a Christian concern at all.
Insofar as we live in this society and vote in its leaders, Christians have a duty to resist laws, ideologies, etc. that counter both civil and moral good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRaider View Post
What government's duty is usually does NOT coincide with a Christian's duty.
A government's job is to enforce civil order and protect our life, liberty, and God-given rights. It does not and should not have authority over that which the Church has authority over, and that which the family has authority over. I believe government, Church, and family are three spheres of authority. I agree that governments can conflict with Christian values, and even persecute Christians, so government is not synonymous with our Faith.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRaider View Post
PS: You quoted Leviticus earlier. Leviticus has some pretty stringent rules in there. Something about the sin of wearing two different fabrics?
I think you're confusing religious law with moral law. It seems as if you're dismissing the Old Testament teachings on the immorality of homosexuality based on Jewish religious law. This is incorrect.

Religious law governed how adherents carried out and interacted with the tenets of the faith, and with Temple ceremony.

Moral Law is eternal, revealed directly by God, and does not change, because it reveals the moral truth of what is good and what is evil.
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Last edited by Galadriel; 04-09-2012 at 12:28 PM.
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  #77  
Old 04-09-2012, 11:17 AM
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Default Re: The Christian Left...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRaider View Post
This is a horrible analogy, but when Christians feel as if it is their role to renounce others, I can hear Jesus' voice like I hear the 911 dispatcher in the Zimmerman case: "We don't need you to do that."

But yeah, I think people here have said it so much better than I could. The government's role is far different than the church's role. I am against abortion and could counsel anyone not to do it. There are just too many places where that little soul is needed and can be loved. And who knows what kind of artist or teacher that baby might become. But I feel real uncomfortable with the government making women have babies they don't want.
You're right, it's a horrible analogy .
If murder is illegal, then why not the murder of unborn children?
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  #78  
Old 04-09-2012, 11:23 AM
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Default Re: The Christian Left...

Quote:
Originally Posted by naturalgyrl5199 View Post
I just can't agree with you on that. But as many have said, its just too political. I am not pro-abortion and I never will be FOR the killing of babies. You just can't put everyone in one big box. Nor is it really fair.
They are the same thing. Especially if you vote for pro-abortion politicians, and vote YES on laws that perpetuate or spread abortion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naturalgyrl5199 View Post
Question: What right does a government have to tell you what to do with your body?
The fetus is not her body, it is another person, and a life.
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  #79  
Old 04-09-2012, 12:26 PM
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Default Re: The Christian Left...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicola.kirwan View Post
There is a lot of picking and choosing of sins. If we look at the 10 commandments in total, you not only have "Do not kill," there's also "Do not commit adultery." When Paul runs down his list of those who will not inherit the Kingdom of God (I Cor. 6), plenty of sins are on there that Christians don't look to the government to punish. The question is what things are appropriate for the government to address, not whether we believe that such and such is actually a sin in God's sight.

I believe the insistence of many Christians to get the government to police social morality reflects failure in the Church. What congregations have been unable to accomplish through evangelism and discipleship, they look to accomplish through the coercive power of the state. We can look at the divorce rate, as well as the rate of pre-marital sex in evangelical churches (as well as scandals in other denominations) to see clearly that Christian leaders have, on the whole, not been able to bring the culture of their own churches into line with God, let alone the rest of society. If those with the power of God cannot do it, Congress stands much less of a chance in doing so.

I don't believe the government should recognize gay marriages. But why is the political arena the Christian's battleground? Didn't Paul tell us that we battle not against flesh and blood, and that our weapons are not carnal? Allowing gay people to marry or not to marry is not going to make one person gay or not gay. However that issue turns, it won't make a difference for anyone's deliverance from a sinful life.

The democratic process is purely a reflection of whatever the society is. If enough people in the country want a certain thing, eventually that is what the laws will reflect. For that reason, Christians can't rely on the political process to control the actions of people, because once it becomes a genuine political fight, that means the culture has already changed significantly, and if it continues to do so, the question is not "if" such and such happens, but simply "when." We really have to put our energy into the Great Commission and engaging people one-on-one.
I agree that our society and gov't reflect more or less what's in the collective hearts of many. True conversion of heart starts with ourselves, then our family and friends, etc. An immoral society with corrupt laws is the symptom of many unrepentant hearts.

However I do think Christians should care about and engage in civil society (i.e., voting, petitioning, supporting laws, etc.) for two main reasons:

1) To curb injustice

  • throughout history we have seen civil governments commit injustices. When a government passes an unjust law, or enact unjust mandates, it is our duty to resist and promote what is right. Whether it's the Christian abolitionists who defied slavery and fugitive slave laws, or the Christians who hid Jews in Nazi occupied territory, etc. the Body of Christ is sometimes the only counter to unjust and destructive forces in society.
  • If our values are truly internalized, it won't just show in how we conduct ourselves privately, but also publicly and in civil discourse.
  • When we do not participate in civil life, unjust laws often come back to bite us.

2) To have a voice in the public square to protect our religious liberty

  • It's all too easy for our rights and religious liberty to be curtailed, ignored, or attacked when we stay silent and stick our heads in the sand.
  • What do we do when the government passes a law that tells us we must do X (which we find to be wrong and undoable) or else face fines or go to jail? Or what about laws (such as in communist China) where adhering to our religion or possessing a Bible could be a death sentence?
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Old 04-09-2012, 02:39 PM
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Lightbulb Re: The Christian Left...

@Galadiel...

I just want to say thank you for sharing God's word with so much love and the truth.

I'm typin from my phone so my post is limited.

@Nicola.kiran.... thank you too. Sorry the short post and typos.
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