4a, 4b vs. C-Napp Hair: What's the Difference?

[Nonie]

Originally Posted by rosa praeclara

This thread is among the most helpful I've come across. I find typiing confusing (as evidenced in my siggy) but I think having generally accepted hair categories based on curl size, pattern, uniformity, texture, density, porosity, sheen/shine is very helpful in figuring out what works best for one's hair. Even if we can't arrive at a consensus, the discussion that's taken place in this thread has really opened my eyes to the different characteristics of my hair that I should be taking note of.

I'm tempted to say I'm a 4b/z but that's based on my hair pre-relaxer (and a few times when I've let it grow out natural under weaves) but back then a boar-bristle brush was my best friend, so who knows? I just vividly remember having no waves, let alone curl definition when my hair was styled in fat twists, braids and buns as a child...

I bet my bottom dollar that brushing is what hid your true texture from you.

[mwedzi]

Originally Posted by Nonie

ETA: Mwedzi, I forgot to comment on point you made that "pattern" is what differentiates 4A and 4B. Why that definition is wrong is because the definition assigned to 4B hair "no coil/curl pattern" or whatever it is that Andre said, only applies to manipulated 4B hair. No hair grows out of anyone's head all willy nilly without taking some form of uniform pattern that repeats itself throughout its length, whether it's a wave, curl, coil, or just straight.

In that case, we are making up our own definition of 4b. If that's what folks want to do, okay, but the original definition is not that. The addendum was added by readers. I can accept it because it does make sense.

I see plenty of bends (i.e. "kinks") in the closeup of your lovely unmanipulated hair, just like I see them in mine every time I would wash. At some point, what is relevant is how the hair behaves. If my hair grows in perfect coils, I have never seen it other than 2 regular dime-sized patches on my head. If I have never seen it (and that includes not manipulating it or trying to manipulate it), then functionally it is true that that is not how my hair is. For all real purposes, perfect coils are not how this hair type is, so why define a classification based on something no one ever sees and which is not realized on anyone's actual head?

[Nonie]

Originally Posted by mwedzi

In that case, we are making up our own definition of 4b. If that's what folks want to do, okay, but the original definition is not that. The addendum was added by readers. I can accept it because it does make sense.

I see plenty of bends (i.e. "kinks") in the closeup of your lovely unmanipulated hair, just like I see them in mine every time I would wash. At some point, what is relevant is how the hair behaves. If my hair grows in perfect coils, I have never seen it other than 2 regular dime-sized patches on my head. If I have never seen it (and that includes not manipulating it or trying to manipulate it), then functionally it is true that that is not how my hair is. For all real purposes, perfect coils are not how this hair type is, so why define a classification based on something no one ever sees and which is not realized on anyone's actual head?

OK, once again, I do not disagree that 4B hair is made of kinks. It bends and twists and curls and coils. But guess what, so does 4A.

Nadia Turner's hair is the epitome of 4A hair:



And just as you say of your hair, Nadia's has defined coils in some parts and not in others. But there's a circular structure to the strands whether they bend or not. Like a phone coil, the strands can have a bend that isn't spirally but just coz a phone coil might bend awkwardly in one spot that doesn't take away the fact that the general shape of the phone coil is spirally/curly. Likewise no one questions whether Nadia's hair is curly even though in some parts it seems to have no pattern because the hairs are all separated and mixed together. It clearly is as Andre described it:"tightly coiled hair that, when stretched, has an "S" pattern, much like curly hair."

Andre's definition of 4B hair IMO was based on how he saw our hair not from how it's truly structured. Methinks after the 400 years without a comb, people with 4B hair couldn't wait to comb their hair. If it wasn't combed into an afro, it was brushed back with a wooden brush. So it either looked like my afro puff :

Or it looked somewhat like this

So the only way he could think to describe it was "hair which has a "Z" pattern, less of a defined curl pattern (instead of curling or coiling, the hair bends in sharp angles like the letter "Z"). As I've shown you all before the only time hair gets corners that might be called Z's is after it's been braided. This is a characteristic that I don't thick occurs in other hair types but 4's.

Seriously Andre can't have really believed anyone's hair grew out of their heads in Z shapes.

Until 2003 or 2004, I would've sworn my hair was made of Z's. I did so much to it. I combed it dry. I applied so many things to it and fought it to make it succumb to my styling desires. Instead of just allowing my hair to reveal itself to me, I wrestled with it to make it do my bidding.

It wasn't until one day when I suspected that CON shampoo was coating my hair and leaving it dull and switched to another (L'Anza?) and that baking soda made my hair rough and so conditioned over and over with some moisturizing conditioner and then ACV rinsed,that I beheld the most beautiful hair ever! First of all, my hair had a sheen I'd never seen before. Secondly my hair had a softness that was so foreign to me. And as I looked at my hair in the mirror, hardly able to take my eyes off it, I noticed something else: my hair was made of tiny curls that looked like pen springs. I'd seen that description on the forum here but had never understood it. Not until that day.

These were the twists I had just washed the day I saw my hair in a new light:


And here is a close-up of how my twists looked:


These photos were taken in the fall of 2004.

Now before you tell me that the twists caused the spirals to happen, let me assure you that this wasn't the first time I'd washed my hair in twists. But in the past, the ends would just look frayed. It's as if I had finally got my hair to its optimum pH. I will have to see if there is anyway to determine if I had ever ACV rinsed my hair before this. Another thing I just found out is that I was using a spritz of glycerin, ACV, distilled water and EOs to keep my hair "moisturized". So I guess you could say that may have had something to do with it.

But years later, when I don't even use a spritz, my hair hasn't changed its characteristics as discovered that day in 2004. I'm going to undo a section of my hair (I'm in braids) and wash it. Then I'll take pics of it dripping wet unmanipulated (no products). I'll let it dry without manipulating it and take another pic (no products) and then I will apply moisturizer and take a pic of what it looks like. I've taken pics before of my hair at the side of my head, at the front, at the back so I'll pick a section at the crown and do this experiment. Since I've never really paid attention to how it looks with product, I'm curious to see what happens when I apply product...

BB in a few.

OK, here are pics of my hair as umanipulated as possible without letting it turn into big ol' knot.

After washing my hair and conditioning then rinsing out, I left it dripping wet (I didn't ACV rinse to save time). Notice how loving my strands are (awww) getting all cuddly and cozy with each other


I had to keep tilting my head every few minutes so the hair stays as separated as possible and would take the pics in that position so the hair could be visible and not camouflaged by my big 'ead Here's the unmanipulated hair no products dry:


And then I applied S Curl to see what difference that makes. I smoothed it from base to ends so there was some manipulating but not as much as a comb would:


I'd get tired of leaning and trying to get a clear pic so I would straight up every now and then and also took pics of my head upright:






To get perspective of which part of my head you are looking at, I took these two pics:


And so I still maintain my stand that my 4B hair behaves just like 4A hair but the coils are so much smaller than those of 4A that they cannot be seen from afar the way 4A coils can. I think the addendum from the members of Naturally Curly was a very good observation and a definite improvement of Andre's weird definition of 4B. And as I pointed out, this very insightful addendum agrees with me that both 4A and 4B are made of wave patterns and tight curls/coils (also known as kinks), but those of 4A are pen size and clearly visible--something that isn't true of 4B which are teeny in varying sizes (I think you once found a coil in your hair the size of the D in the word DIME on the coin itself and for you to point it out, I'm guessing it was smaller than you'd ever seen before?). And I further showed using photos that 4A hair does have bends (which are what you call kinks, while for me the word encompasses curls and twists and coils as well) in addition to having curls and coils just like my 4B hair does.

[Nonie]

Originally Posted by shan_2001

I remember crazycoil, she was very inspirational. I see people with her hair type every blue moon. This was her hair up close:

And styled:

(Will remove upon request!)

Crazycoil's hair behaves exactly as I expect 4B hair to behave. When at rest and not styled, it is clearly made of curls/coils/spirals/bends. When styled it takes on an appearance of what folks call CNapps. My hair does the same thing. I think we might be twins.

ETA: I think the best definition for 4B hair would be to keep the NC addendum but add to it that "when styled, 4B hair has an appearance of CNapps" and then just post photos of CNapps coz I think CNapp hair is pretty self-explanatory.

[scarcity21]

^^^^ without quoting ur pics and all, Nonie I just love the way u break it down....we are definitely hair twins

[AfroKink]

Originally Posted by Nonie

Crazycoil's hair behaves exactly as I expect 4B hair to behave. When at rest and not styled, it is clearly made of curls/coils/spirals/bends. When styled it takes on an appearance of what folks call CNapps. My hair does the same thing. I think we might be twins.

ETA: I think the best definition for 4B hair would be to keep the NC addendum but add to it that "when styled, 4B hair has an appearance of CNapps" and then just post photos of CNapps coz I think CNapp hair is pretty self-explanatory.

But 'when styled' can't 4a hair take on the appearance of 4b? and 3c take on the appearance of 4a? The determining factor being that 4b cannot naturally be made to look like 4a and 4a cannot naturally be made to look like 3c... Like when people say that their hair looks like 4a when they wash it, but if they put gel and shake it looks like 3c. Then to me it means that they really are 3c. Like the pictures recently posted of Terri. Her hair can look like this:


or it can look like this


With manipulation a person with a 'lower hair type" like 3a, 3b, 3c can manipulate their hair to look like a 'higher hair type" like 3b, 3c, 4a. But NOT vice versa. I tried Terri's method and just not tangles. What I'm saying is that yes, 4b hair can look like cnapp, but cnapp is not going to look like 4b hair. Just because your hair can form defined curls/coils in certain conditions doens't mean that those with cnapp hair can.

[mwedzi]

Originally Posted by Nonie

Nadia Turner's hair is the epitome of 4A hair:



And just as you say of your hair, Nadia's has defined coils in some parts and not in others. But there's a circular structure to the strands whether they bend or not. Like a phone coil, the strands can have a bend that isn't spirally but just coz a phone coil might bend awkwardly in one spot that doesn't take away the fact that the general shape of the phone coil is spirally/curly. Likewise no one questions whether Nadia's hair is curly even though in some parts it seems to have no pattern because the hairs are all separated and mixed together. As I've shown you all before the only time hair gets corners that might be called Z's is after it's been braided. This is a characteristic that I don't thick occurs in other hair types but 4's.

Seriously Andre can't have really believed anyone's hair grew out of their heads in Z shapes.

Okay, Nonie. The last things I will say are these. First, you are right about 4a potentially having bends (though Nadia's hair is manipulated in those photos). Yes, I agree. I don't know that it all does, which is what I was talking about in the other thread I started on smooth coils or kinked coils.

The other thing is about the Zs. After some reading about the structure of hair follicles, it seems safe to say that some people's are structured to give a smoother coil while others' coils bend more sharply. This is just a natural progression. Just as wavy hair bends very softly and slowly, as the follicle hooks/curves or the more to the side of the follicle that the hair bulb lies, the sharper the turns and bends. So the smaller the coil, the more tightly it will turn, and this is what gives the appearance of "z"s. After all a "z" is an "s", just with a tight bend.

Interesting discussion in which I've learned a lot. Our hair is fascinating. For a closeup of our hair shaft and the way it kinks/curls, try googling "african sub-saharan hair". You'll get a Google Book result from Human Hair Diversity with a nice microscope view of our strands on pg. 30 and some informative text on our kinks.

btw, I don't think Crazy Coil's hair is that rare. The closeup of her hair looks just like mine. That closeup and a few other pictures on her site also show that her hair doesn't have to look as matte as it does in her wrap bun pic. While hers does naturally reflect light less than many others' hair, those particular pics, I think, are a result of lighting, her hair color, and not using certain types of moisturizers. Also, I've seen her shrinkage vs. stretched hair photos and it's just like mine. I'm sad her site is gone.

[Nonie]

Originally Posted by MissAlyssa

But 'when styled' can't 4a hair take on the appearance of 4b? and 3c take on the appearance of 4a? The determining factor being that 4b cannot naturally be made to look like 4a and 4a cannot naturally be made to look like 3c... Like when people say that their hair looks like 4a when they wash it, but if they put gel and shake it looks like 3c. Then to me it means that they really are 3c. Like the pictures recently posted of Terri. Her hair can look like this:


or it can look like this


With manipulation a person with a 'lower hair type" like 3a, 3b, 3c can manipulate their hair to look like a 'higher hair type" like 3b, 3c, 4a. But NOT vice versa. I tried Terri's method and just not tangles. What I'm saying is that yes, 4b hair can look like cnapp, but cnapp is not going to look like 4b hair. Just because your hair can form defined curls/coils in certain conditions doens't mean that those with cnapp hair can.
[IMG]file:///C:/Users/asmall08/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG][IMG]file:///C:/Users/asmall08/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.jpg[/IMG]

I think the day I'll believe CNapp doesn't have curls/kinks/coils/bends like my hair is the day I myself am trusted with CNapp hair for a week to be in charge of it and to simplify the regimen (even if just of one section) and it never ever goes into a "resting mode" where it looks like my hair. Until then, I'm not going to believe it. Why? Because as I stated before I had CNapp hair until the new millennium. I had never seen my hair any differently. And as Mwedzi said, Crazycoils hair looks different in different states, which is what I've noticed with my hair. Also I think the darker the hair the more it appears to shine, and Crazycoil's hair is the blackest of black w/r/t mine. Mine looks like a faded black. Yet there are times when moisturized it appears to have a sheen and other times it's just as dull as can be.

Anyway, I don't think we'll ever get to agree and I don't think it's that serious. But if ever I do get my hands on CNapp hair and I'm entrusted to do with it as I please, I'll be sure to take pics and report back.

BTW, I'd be interested in knowing Crazycoil's regimen if anyone knows it.

ETA: Mwedzi, you mentioned that Crazycoil's hair is like yours. I have told you before that I believe we have the same hair and yesterday after seeing CC's hair w/o even knowing that you thought it looked like yours, I exclaimed she and I are twins. I see my hair in yours all the time which is why I still maintain my definition of 4B and that yours is 4B.

Oh and Nadia's hair I believe is most manipulated in the parts where it's not clumping, like to the right where it looks frizzy. If she were to wash her hair and just let it be, I can bet my bottom dollar the same features I pointed out would be evident throughout her hair. Anything that coils like a phone coil is bound to have a bend here and here that interrupts the uniform pattern, especially if its diameter is as small as that of hair.

[ladylibra]

Originally Posted by Nonie

Nadia Turner's hair is the epitome of 4A hair:



... but those of 4A are pen size and clearly visible

What's with all that fluff on the right side of Nadia's picture? Is that supposed to be 4a or 4b? And someone tell me, how come Nadia's looser coils are being depicted as 4a, but mine are always called 3c?

About the bolded. I thought 4a was pen-size to penspring-size, no?

I soooooooo can't stand hair typing... the more peoople talk about it, the more it confuses me...

[mwedzi]

Originally Posted by Nonie

Oh and Nadia's hair I believe is most manipulated in the parts where it's not clumping, like to the right where it looks frizzy. If she were to wash her hair and just let it be, I can bet my bottom dollar the same features I pointed out would be evident throughout her hair. Anything that coils like a phone coil is bound to have a bend here and here that interrupts the uniform pattern, especially if its diameter is as small as that of hair.

Okay, Nonie, your powers of persuasion have won me over. I'm convinced.