Losing my religion

[natalied]

If she had said no, God would have found another worthy woman. There have been times when God's chosen have strayed.

See the story of King Saul. God ended up giving his throne to David.

If you don't intend to "rag" on Catholics, what is your intention, Ann_Driena? The Catholic Church does not require that anyone ask saints pray for them. There is power in prayer. So if I can ask my best friend, this board, my Church, and my priest to pray for me, why can't I ask St. Teresa of Avila?

Prayers like the rosary aren't about repetition. When I pray the rosary, it's my personal meditiation that draws me closer to God. While Mary is not worshiped, she is to be respected. She is the mother of Jesus. What if she had said "No" when the Lord came to her and asked her to bear His son? It is only right to pay respect to Mary, IMO. But respecting her and worshiping her are two different things.

[DelightfulFlame]

It was God's will that she was the one...so she was. Who can say no to God? You mean that God would have re-written His entire will/plan for the earth because the one woman He chose to be the mother of Christ said no?

Even if I think I'm saying no to something I think He's asking me to do...it wasn't in His will for me to do it then...or I would have. When God wants you to do something, you do it. No ifs, ands, or buts...

where did God ask Mary if she wanted to? All I recall was an angel appearing saying that she would.

[natalied]

Then why bother to worship? Why read the bible? I should just do what I want to do if I can't control antying..

It's would be much easier to believe what you believe. That way, I could do ABSOLUTELY ANTHING to anybody and say "Oh well, God's well."

Cheat on my hubby. Sorry Hubby, God's will.
Steal. Rob. God's will.
Betray a friend. Oops, God's will again.
Molest a child. umm....God's will again.

Your way would be fun. No need for jails b/c nobody should be accountable for anything they do. It was Gods will.

No need fo jails. No need fo apologies. No choice. No accountability.. God's Will.



It was God's will that she was the one...so she was. Who can say no to God? You mean that God would have re-written His entire will/plan for the earth because the one woman He chose to be the mother of Christ said no?

Even if I think I'm saying no to something I think He's asking me to do...it wasn't in His will for me to do it then...or I would have. When God wants you to do something, you do it. No ifs, ands, or buts...

[DelightfulFlame]

Nope...doesn't work like that. I don't cheat on my hubby, go to jail, etc. b/c it is not God's will for me to. The mistakes that I do make, I get convicted in my Spirit something terrible. Was it God's will for me to make those mistakes? Yep. Everything that happens on this earth is God's will...OR ELSE IT WOULDN'T HAPPEN.

How does the DIVINE creator, create something with a purpose, and then let it get out of control? Not just some joe smoe we're talking about here. It's GOD, ALMIGHTY. Who created good and evil, you and me with sinful natures.

If He wanted us to be perfect, don't you think we would?

If He didn't want us to be sinners, we WOULD NOT.

Simple as that. He's God, and He always gets what He wants.

[natalied]

Then why have jails? Why would anyone every say sorry?

Nope...doesn't work like that. I don't cheat on my hubby, go to jail, etc. b/c it is not God's will for me to. The mistakes that I do make, I get convicted in my Spirit something terrible. Was it God's will for me to make those mistakes? Yep. Everything that happens on this earth is God's will...OR ELSE IT WOULDN'T HAPPEN.

How does the DIVINE creator, create something with a purpose, and then let it get out of control? Not just some joe smoe we're talking about here. It's GOD, ALMIGHTY. Who created good and evil, you and me with sinful natures.

If He wanted us to be perfect, don't you think we would?

If He didn't want us to be sinners, we WOULD NOT.

Simple as that. He's God, and He always gets what He wants.

[DelightfulFlame]

because apparently they are part of His will too. Remember, He said He created evil. There is evil in the world. Evil has a purpose. I don't claim to know what that purpose is...I'm still trying to figure out mine. But if you do something wrong, you will be punished. And that punishment is apparently part of God's will as well. It's definitely a learning experience when I do something wrong.

I say sorry because I feel bad when I do something wrong. Apparently part of God's will too. And jails...yep...in His will to.

You think that something can exist on this earth without being apart of His will?

Me and you conversing right now...out of all the people on earth...at this very moment...miles away from each other...all planned and a part of His will.

[natalied]

No, he didn't create evil. He CREATED the being that started EVIL. There is a difference. Many biblical scholars who analyzed the orginal text believe this is what was meant based on the words used in the original language.

The god that you describe is cruel and heartless.

I know a God of Love. A God of Love does not reconcile with what you are saying.

Thanks for sharing your beliefs but I just can't buy it.:nono:

because apparently they are part of His will too. Remember, He said He created evil. There is evil in the world. Evil has a purpose. I don't claim to know what that purpose is...I'm still trying to figure out mine. But if you do something wrong, you will be punished. And that punishment is apparently part of God's will as well. It's definitely a learning experience when I do something wrong.

I say sorry because I feel bad when I do something wrong. Apparently part of God's will too. And jails...yep...in His will to.

You think that something can exist on this earth without being apart of His will?

Me and you conversing right now...out of all the people on earth...at this very moment...miles away from each other...all planned and a part of His will.

[DelightfulFlame]

So he created a being and didn't know or plan for it to be evil?

Thank you too for sharing. We can agree to disagree. If everyone thought the same this would be one big boring place. Peace and love.

[fine_beauty]

That's what I thought too. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

Webby,

I have on other occasions and other threads in which you participated explained my faith. Your stance is non-confrontational and I thank you. If you're still interested in learning about the Christians who belong to the universal (catholic) church. Please pm me.

Thanks and God bless,

[AnnDriena_]

Thank you pebbles. The differences are what I was highlighting.
I respect Mary and other saints but when you say a prayer to her such "Mary mother of God...." then that's what I was talking about as worshipping her. God said to pray to no one but him so that's where my stance was coming from regarding that. I do not consider that to be "ragging" on Catholics.

And I didn't say the Catholic Church requires Catholics to pray to saints. But it is part of their doctrine and it is practiced in their churches. So that's why I attributed it to them. If they do not practice it in their churches please forgive me for saying so. As for asking someone to pray for you. That is a wonderful idea but the bible says the dead can't do anything for us.

We on earth are actually saints. Yep. I'm not kidding. Saints are the children and ambassadors of God. So I also don't think the Catholic church has the right to appoint sainthood. Does that offend you? Well it shouldn't. I'm discussing the differences between Catholics and Christians which caused the offense in the first place and I'm just trying to explain my viewpoint that you said was full of errors which I have not seen any error in. So you needn't be offended on a personal level. But if my information is incorrect feel free to correct me please.

But I must say one more thing I do have a problem with the Catholic Church as an organization. Every church and denomination has it's faults and let's face it, some downright crazy people in it:lol: . But with things like the case of the little girl in whose health problem wouldn't allow her to eat the normal communion wafer because of her allergy to it and a priest volunteered to give her a wheat wafer and the Catholic church disallowed her communion and said it was not valid.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5762478?GT1=4529
And the way they have been moving priests around who have abused children instead of dealing with them and protecting the little children (whatever you do unto them you are doing unto Christ). That sickens me to no end and it angers me that people have to picket and go to court with the Church organization to get some justice and the Catholic Church is still moving pedophile priests around.
Same thing with the Southern Baptist Association, Yep, their CHRISTIAN and I can't stand the way they try and put their organizational crap into CHRISTIANITY. Did you know that Baptists aren't supposed to dance? (David danced before the Lord and the Lord was pleased with his honest worship) Well good thing I'm not Baptist or the SBA would have a little problem with me.

[Nyambura]

I haven't been on the board for the past couple of days so I'm just now able to respond to this. A glaring error that you state about Catholics, and that is not supported by the Catholic Church, is that Catholics and Christians are separate. Please point to anything from the Catholic Church stating that we are not Christians.

Stating the differences in beliefs between Catholicism and Christianity is not bashing. Explain the bashing to me. If Catholics don't go to priests and confess then I lied and as far as I know I didn't lie and I didn't bash anyone for going to a priest.
None of the Christian churches I have ever been too consider Catholics to be Christian so I separate the two and your above statement:



Supports that. You just said the statements come from people who are not Catholic and you are correct I'm not Catholic, I'm Christian.

I didn't put any statements in this topic to debate or offend and if something I stated about Catholics is not supported by the Catholic Church please point it out to me.

[Nyambura]

AnnDriena,
Please go back and read my post. You may not be here to debate but it does not seem like you are open to correcting your ways, either. Nowhere in my post did I say that what you have listed immediately below was offensive to me. In fact, if you had read my post, you would have seen where I agreed that the Bible doesn't support confessions to priests. I also clearly stated that you are wrong if you think Catholics are not Christians. Your analogy between Christians and Muslims is inapposite. I don't care to debate either but I will point out what you said is wrong. Since Catholics are Christians, yes, the fact that you continually separate Catholics from the rest of Christianity is wrong. As I said before, this suspect separation speaks more about human motivations and nothing about the Word of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnDriena_
Catholics
1) ask saints to pray for them
2) Pray to the virgin mary
3) Go to confession with priests




Those are the facts I stated that are apparently offensive to some. They were not meant to be offensive I just wanted to show the evidence for my belief in the difference between Catholicism and Christians.
It's like Muslims and Christians. Muslims believe in God but not the same one we believe in and to call them Christians just because they believe in God would be erroneous because the paths we believe in are different and Jesus said no man can get to the Father but by me and since Muslims don't believe in Jesus as the son of God then we don't believe in the same path.
So that's why my beliefs are the way they are.

I'm not here to debate.

[Nyambura]

I don't find your posts offensive at all, Pebbles. Differences between beliefs exist. You and I definitely agree on that. For the few who insist Catholics aren't Christians, such belief is not based on fact. And for those who insist, despite posts and evidence to the contrary, do appear to be here to bash Catholics and be offensive. It's one thing not to know something due to lack of exposure. It's another to plod doggedly on in ignorance irrespective of what is being shown to you (you in general, not you specific).

The reason is that while the members of this board, your church, and your priest are alive, St. Teresa and Avila are dead. The bible says that the dead know not what the living do. They have no knowledge of the things of the earth. Ecclesiastes 9:3-12 is pretty clear on that.

I do hope that people understand that the differences between beliefs is what is being highlighted. We're not here to bash or offend anyone.

[DelightfulFlame]

More on "free will"...someone posted this on another board. I thought it was interesting...
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QUOTE(librarising @ Feb 25 2005, 06:30 PM)
Okay. I made a huge post yesterday disputing this but it got deleted, so here goes briefly again:

You have severly contradicted yourself in that statement. As many Christians believe, God is all knowing and all powerful, the Alpha and Omega, and is all knowing. But if you believe that God knows what path you will "choose", then that path has already been predetermined. If he knows and sees time as cyclical rather than linear, where the past and the present are one, then knowing the end result means that it has already happened - you don't have and were never given a choice. For instance, if I was clairvoyant and able to see into the future, and if free will did in fact exist, I could change the outcome. I would be able to see the outcome of Path A, and make it so that Path A did not end as I had forseen. However, if I could see into the future and tried to change my destiny, but no matter what path I took it would end in the same result, then my fate was predestined. Based on what you said, only God knows the beginning and the end. Therefore, I would have no knowledge about the end result, only God would. And if he already knows what will ultimately happen, no matter what path I've "chosen" or if I change my ways, then my fate has been predetermined.

I think the Merovingian in The Matrix Reloaded said it best: Choice is a concept created by those in power for those without power. The church seems to stress this concept of free will, while still putting forth the belief that God is omniscient, a clear contradiction in terms. It's like the age old philosophical question, "Could God create a boulder that was too heavy for even him to lift?" If you say no, then God is not all powerful. If yes, then God is not all powerful. Free will seems to me to be a concept originally stressed by the church for the purposes of having a chuch hieracy while pacifying the laypeople. If you are the master of your fate, then no one can ultimately be blamed for your mistakes except you. This concept seems to have worked well in the conquering and enslavement of other cultures via Christianity. A while ago, I started a thread on African Americans and Christianity. If we hadn't been enslaved would we still be Christian? And without being Christian, would we still believe in this concept of free will?

People discuss free will in similar contexts everyday. Take affirmative action, for example. Those in power say, "We are all created equal and we have equal opportunities in life." The opposing faction says, "No, we stated on unlevel playing fields. Many of the mistakes I made, the chances that I did not get in life, and the things that I can't overcome were as a result of where I began and the situation I was born into." I'd say that most of us on this board might agree with the opposing faction. However when it comes to placing this in a religious context, many switch to the former statement where we proclaim that, "I am the master of my own destiny and my own choices because the Bible says so." thebibleheavilyeditedbythechurchsaysso

I would like to know how other cultures and religions view the concept of free will. The closest I've gotten to researching any opposing belief system in this area is the philosophical concept of existenialism via writings by Albert Camus such as The Stranger. As far as religious beliefs, I believe that free will could work if you were a Deist. As a Deist, you believe that God is the Clockmaker and Architect of the universe and that is where he ends. In this belief system, divine intervention does not exist and you are the master of your own destiny. However, if you are a Christian and believe in divine intervention and the omnipresence of God (where he sees and knows all before it happens), then I believe that you have underestimated the limits that this belief system has on the concept of free will.

[pebbles]

More on "free will"...someone posted this on another board. I thought it was interesting...
-------------------------------------
QUOTE
(librarising @ Feb 25 2005, 06:30 PM)
Okay. I made a huge post yesterday disputing this but it got deleted, so here goes briefly again:

You have severly contradicted yourself in that statement. As many Christians believe, God is all knowing and all powerful, the Alpha and Omega, and is all knowing. But if you believe that God knows what path you will "choose", then that path has already been predetermined. If he knows and sees time as cyclical rather than linear, where the past and the present are one, then knowing the end result means that it has already happened - you don't have and were never given a choice.
No need to read any further. Here's the problem. This person believes that because God already knows what your decision is going to be, your destiny is "fixed." Yes, the Father knows what decisions you will make, but it's not because He made you make that decision. We have choices to make, and He knows what choices we will make. That does not mean that He made the choice; we made the choice. It is the Father's will that we have a choice. I wish I could explain better. I'll keep trying, though. :)

[AnnDriena_]

AnnDriena,
Please go back and read my post. You may not be here to debate but it does not seem like you are open to correcting your ways, either. Nowhere in my post did I say that what you have listed immediately below was offensive to me. In fact, if you had read my post, you would have seen where I agreed that the Bible doesn't support confessions to priests. I also clearly stated that you are wrong if you think Catholics are not Christians. Your analogy between Christians and Muslims is inapposite. I don't care to debate either but I will point out what you said is wrong. Since Catholics are Christians, yes, the fact that you continually separate Catholics from the rest of Christianity is wrong. As I said before, this suspect separation speaks more about human motivations and nothing about the Word of God.
No. I didn't say the Catholic church says that Catholics and Christians are separate. I said no church that i've ever been to has accepted Catholics as Christians. On the contrary ever since I became a Christian at age 13 whenever pastors are talking about the differences in religion many point to the differences between Muslims, Christians and Catholics
A glaring error that you state about Catholics, and that is not supported by the Catholic Church, is that Catholics and Christians are separate. Please point to anything from the Catholic Church stating that we are not Christians.

As I've stated before I'm perfectly open to correction but besides the separations of Catholics and Christians which I never said was supported by the CATHOLIC CHURCH, so I don't know why you asked me to find where the catholic church supports that, I haven't found out the answer to my previous post.
What was so full of errors about my post. The catholics praying to Mary when God said only pray to him? Or the asking the saints to pray for them? or the other points? Please point the "full of errors" part out to me.


But again please show me in my posts where I said the Catholic Church supports this separation. To the contrary The Mormon church is also calling themselves Christian. This nation being founded on Christian principles and Christianity being the majority they have found that it is less alienating and it helps with acceptance to be called Christian. But whenever there are differences being highlighted I've found that believers and non-believers alike will call to attention the differences between Catholics, Muslims, Christians, Mormons, Buddhists and etc.

If they thought any of those were the same religion it would confusing as to why they would contrast and compare them as such. They being the educated clergy and everyday laymen.

I know there are differences in the way some Christians worship but if they believe and follow the biblical tenents of the bible and the way Christ taught then they are following Christ. But things like praying to anyone other than God is more than a difference in the way worship is done. That seems to be a difference in beliefs. The bible teaches about repititious prayer so when an organization such as the Catholic Church trains priests who then go out and give instructions to their parishoners such as 50 Hail Marys for forgiveness of this or that. That to me is a difference in belief and is a practice that is in direct contradiction with what the bible teaches.

[AnnDriena_]

No need to read any further. Here's the problem. This person believes that because God already knows what your decision is going to be, your destiny is "fixed." Yes, the Father knows what decisions you will make, but it's not because He made you make that decision. We have choices to make, and He knows what choices we will make. That does not mean that He made the choice; we made the choice. It is the Father's will that we have a choice. I wish I could explain better. I'll keep trying, though. :)

That's excellent. It sounds like something I heard in a sermon once where our pastor said God didn't want a bunch of robots worshipping him because if he did he'd make better robots than us who keep turning against him.:lachen:

[DelightfulFlame]

No need to read any further. Here's the problem. This person believes that because God already knows what your decision is going to be, your destiny is "fixed." Yes, the Father knows what decisions you will make, but it's not because He made you make that decision. We have choices to make, and He knows what choices we will make. That does not mean that He made the choice; we made the choice. It is the Father's will that we have a choice. I wish I could explain better. I'll keep trying, though. :)

:) that still doesn't make sense to me. You don't get to choose how you begin your life, yet you get to choose how you end it? Unless of course God's will calls for you to do something spectacu lar...then you don't get a choice about that...but you do get to choose the rest of it? I've never read that it is the God's will that we have a choice...where is that?

Is your destiny changeable? If the Father already knows the beginning and the end...what can you change about it? And if you can't change it...where is the free will?

[pebbles]

That's excellent. It sounds like something I heard in a sermon once where our pastor said God didn't want a bunch of robots worshipping him because if he did he'd make better robots than us who keep turning against him.:lachen:

LOL! I know that's right! :lol:

[pebbles]

:) that still doesn't make sense to me. You don't get to choose how you begin your life, yet you get to choose how you end it? Unless of course God's will calls for you to do something spectacu lar...then you don't get a choice about that...but you do get to choose the rest of it? I've never read that it is the God's will that we have a choice...where is that?

Is your destiny changeable? If the Father already knows the beginning and the end...what can you change about it? And if you can't change it...where is the free will?

Yes. Your destiny is changeable in that you have the choice of what direction you will take and the decisions that you make. People either choose to believe and serve the Lord, or they choose to live apart from Him and do their own thing. If someone living a riotous life suddenly decides to stop and turn his live over to Jesus, he has just changed his destiny. And the reverse is true. We know that God is Omniscient, but that does not mean that He is forcing or manipulating us to choose one thing over another. We are making those choices for ourselves. And since we all have the ability to make our own choices, we are thus held accountable for our actions.

First understand that if a person is without true "Free Will," he could not be held responsible for his or her actions. Free will was first demonstrated with Adam. If Adam did not have the free will to sin against God, God would not have punished him for something beyond his control. That goes against the very nature of a loving God. Does it really make sense that God would force Adam to fall into sin then punish him for something he couldn't control in the first place? Of course not. As I've stated before, that would be manipulation. And God would not be the just God we know Him to be. You can't be punished for something you have no control over. The whole story of the bible is ordinary people making good and bad decisions of their own free will, the consequences involved, and God's mercy towards His people by sending the Savior.

Could God have kept Adam from sinning against Him? Certainly He could have. But then Adam would be a robot or a puppet. God wants us to choose Him of our own free will.

Does any of this mean that man's free will supersedes God's will? Absolutely not. No matter the choices we make, it is God's will that we have a choice. You are either operating in God's perfect will or God's permissive will, but either way, His will is still sovereign over all. Yes, He knows what we're going to choose. No, He doesn't manipulate us, and yes, for those of us who sin yet choose to believe in Jesus Christ, we are given a means of redemption.

Hope that was a little bit more clear. :)