A "Lesser Existence"

[Aviah]

Had a conversation with SO yesterday, stating that I wanted to have fun. He asked what I meant, and I told him play dodgeball, football, tag, be goofy (something childish and energetic). He asked me if I meant I wanted to be male:look:. I said something along the lines of is it only men that can play sports or have fun? He left the conversation off there and we didn't speak properly for the rest of the day (we were both at work emailing one another). I was the kind of girl that loved that kind of stuff as a kid, wrestling with boys, racing them (and winning) playing football with them, all of that. It was great fun. Is it that its "manly/boyish" to want to do those things as a 20 year old? I see it as me being playful and energetic.
In any case he said (not in direct reference to me ) that women were trying to be men these days (meaning that women try to do "manly" things, doing extreme sports, being power hungry, competitive etc). So it makes me wonder, where do the lines of reasonable godly feminism lie? Are we just meant to sit in skirts and talk among ourselves, fluffing about makeup, cooking and cleaning (no offense to anyone)? Not aspiring to compete with men in anything (the work force), be submissive, gentle and suscribe to what I call a "lesser existence", because to me , God has made us with differences but beyond marriage and ministry, what is social conditioning, and what is God?

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

In any case he said (not in direct reference to me ) that women were trying to be men these days (meaning that women try to do "manly" things, doing extreme sports, being power hungry, competitive etc). So it makes me wonder, where do the lines of reasonable godly feminism lie?

I'm reminded of Jean d'Arc? She lead armies! Deborah the judge? Wow, just wow. Now, SO is probably feeling that competition right on his back. He didn't marry his mother, he married you who likes sports and play. You both need to talk. Cooking and cleaning...and when men do it in the professional kitchen, they tell the women they don't have the same talents lol! Men are buttheads sometimes. :lachen:

It's social conditioning. We're all just a minute out of a veil and chadoor covering up everything. Well, in my own culture, women were highly respected and chose the leaders and the direction for the tribes. There was much more equality than European women had. But largely, American males still have a puritan mindset and that means that women are still low on the totem pole. It's social conditioning. You gotta talk with him about it...not email. Ask him if he wants an old wrinkled granny for a wife or a vibrant, charming and beautiful, physically fit and challenging partner!!!

[Aviah]

Though women did those things, it seems almost universal that women are (at least traditionally) confined to the "gatherer" role. I don't compete with him with anything. I do challenge his ideas though, and he didn't want to finish talking about it because he said I'm always ready to pounce (yeah its true what can I say lol). But we will come back to it, its very important, but he is not the topic I was interested in, because I am not that girly girl- feminine, sure, and I have my girly times but its not a constant thing.
I just wonder why men (even in the bible) have usually have the leader position, and women the co-leader, or sub- position in some way or form, and if we can really change that, or if its "just the way it will always be". I do agree its social conditioning more than God, but it started somewhere...

[Crown]

I just wonder why men (even in the bible) have usually have the leader position, and women the co-leader, or sub- position in some way or form, and if we can really change that, or if its "just the way it will always be". I do agree its social conditioning more than God, but it started somewhere... In my understanding, it started in Eden.
First, Eve was created in Adam, not the contrary. Adam was first formed, then Eve.
Second, Eve was deceived by the snake and transgressed.

1Tim. 2.9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 2.10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 2.11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 2.12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 2.13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 2.14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 2.15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

1Cor. 11.3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
11.8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. 11.9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

I agree with you, there is a line.
Submissive does not mean ghost. And a woman does not have to submit to every man.
Competition until teenage is refreshing. But a grown woman (Christian) should do what she thinks that she has to do in the work area and/or in the family area and everywhere. No need for competition (unless for a game; game means competition, but not in the same team).

In a team, there is several positions, everybody can not be president or captain. As Paul said, the lesser part of the body is very important, and the body needs this part to do its best.

I consider a normal relation between a man and a woman in the marriage like a oyster and its pearl.
We, women, are the pearls.
Man/Woman should be a win/win situation.
I know I can do all a man does and even better.
But, God gave us a special and precious mission. A better understanding of our mission is fundamental.
That does not mean a lesser existence.

[momi]

I agree wholeheartedly with Crowns post.

Remember we are all Eve's daughters... she was guilty of not being satisfied with what she had, but focusing on the one thing she could not...

[Nymphe]

We have been systematically conditioned to believe femininity or simply being female is a position of weakness, that being like men is what we should strive for. As a former tomboy, I rejected that notion; playing football and house on the same day was not unusual for me. At some point, I put playtime aside because that stuff was starting to hurt, LOL.

I still watch a variety of sports and play around with DH on occasion, no competition though. Thankfully, I have another excuse to play...my kids!

[Shimmie]

In my understanding, it started in Eden.
First, Eve was created in Adam, not the contrary. Adam was first formed, then Eve.
Second, Eve was deceived by the snake and transgressed.

1Tim. 2.9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 2.10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 2.11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 2.12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 2.13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 2.14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 2.15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

1Cor. 11.3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
11.8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. 11.9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

I agree with you, there is a line.

Submissive does not mean ghost.

And a woman does not have to submit to every man.

Competition until teenage is refreshing. But a grown woman (Christian) should do what she thinks that she has to do in the work area and/or in the family area and everywhere. No need for competition (unless for a game; game means competition, but not in the same team).

In a team, there is several positions, everybody can not be president or captain. As Paul said, the lesser part of the body is very important, and the body needs this part to do its best.

I consider a normal relation between a man and a woman in the marriage like a oyster and its pearl.

We, women, are the pearls.

Man/Woman should be a win/win situation.

I know I can do all a man does and even better.

But, God gave us a special and precious mission.

A better understanding of our mission is fundamental.

That does not mean a lesser existence.


You speak a Powerful Message of Truth, well worth the adorn of a

'Crown'...




http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww67/cheny_77/gdg.jpg


Submissive does not mean ghost.

And a woman does not have to submit to every man.

I consider a normal relation between
a man and a woman in the marriage
like a oyster and its pearl.

We, women, are the Pearls.

Man/Woman should be a win/win situation.

God gave us a special and precious mission. . .

That does not mean a lesser existence...

--------------------------------


Praise God for this powerful word.

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

Traditional roles and psyches, they are both important roles and they complement one another, male to female. Some are not more important than others. We might have different roles, where some seem on top and others less important, but we cannot exist well without the support of the other. We're equal, just different.

Consider the male as the head. Well, in many cases he is. But the the woman is the neck and she can turn the head any direction she wishes.

[momi]

Traditional roles and psyches, they are both important roles and they complement one another, male to female. Some are not more important than others. We might have different roles, where some seem on top and others less important, but we cannot exist well without the support of the other. We're equal, just different.

Consider the male as the head. Well, in many cases he is. But the the woman is the neck and she can turn the head any direction she wishes.

:yep::yep::yep::yep:

[mswoman]

I agree with crown, as a younger wife 23, I had to find out that my husband and I had different perspectives of what women did for fun or leisure. I was a manager at my job and I realized that I couldn't at that way at home and had to regress on may things.

Anyway, what sports do you think ya'll could do together? What types of things did ya'll do in the past that you were able to get your "energy" all out?

[Shimmie]

To be honest, it's the men, who actually feel they are the 'Lesser Existence', especially in this time we live in.

I know........I know, :yep:.........as women we've been 'forced' to become strong and independent in many ways, I'm one of them, for sure. :ohwell:
Yet the truth is that men simply want to feel that 'we' as women need them.

I don't think that it's the sports so much as it is the more 'aggressive' or 'rough' the sports actiiviity is, it sends a 'signal' to most men, that we competing with their strength and that we have no need for them as men.

The key word is 'signal'. And it's a signal that speaks to them, 'Hey Man, your testosterone is watered down ... literally.

Football, baseball, wrestling, boxing is 'Their' territory. And it's also activity that men quite agressively compete with other men with; it's about the challenge and with or against a woman, it's not aa fair challenge to them. Men do not want women as opponents. And history itsself shows that when men are in 'action', their strength was our attraction to them and they were always the champions of the arena, be it sports, the hunt, or corporate enterprise. :cup:

This may sound contrite, but men still need to feel their are the 'hero' and that we need them and that there's nothing obsolete about them.

As women, there are a lot of things we do which give men the signal that we do not need them. In many, many areas of life, we 'do' tend to take over, even with the 'little things'.

If he takes too long taking out the trash, 'we' become frustrated and do it ourselves.

When it comes to paying bills, as women we 'need' security, we know we can't let the lights go out or the rent/mortgage has to be paid on time, and if we make good money, we'll pay that bill, before he will, especially if we feel he's taking too long to do so. It may be in an early marriage and his finances have not been built up to have a substantial savings and he's still living check to check. The wife will tend to pay those bills when due, before he has a chance to.

In many ways, the wife thinks she's being 'helpful', but the actual message being sent to him is, "he's not needed'.

Pastor tells us that no matter how good our intentions may be or no matter how hard it may be for 'us' as wives to 'hold' back, that it is better for us to just 'hold out' a little and allow our men to feel like men, which is 'needed' more than 'we' paying the bills to them. Even in Ministry, we have to allow them as men to feel 'needed'.

As strong as I've had to become in life (being mother and father and business woman), I think it's wonderful that we still have the 'treasure' of men still among us, that think that even playing ball is too harsh for a woman.

When I'm traveling, I notice that men immediately reach for my carry on bag and place it into the overhead bins for me and when the planes have landed, they 'remember' to retrieve my bag for me, without me having to ask. Men hold doors open for me; this morning at work, a gentleman, waited for me to enter the lobby and he held the elevator for me;

My 'friend' loves that he's much taller than me (I'm 5' 1), and he loves to reach for the 'high' things that I often cannot reach. For what he's really saying is that, I want to be 'Your Hero'... let me live up to that for you, for to me you are my Queen. :love5:

I have a very active life, Dancing, gym; weight training, power walks, and I love it, but I love being a 'girl' and holding back just enough to let him be my 'hero'.

That's the 'secret', always let him feel he's your hero, and that you need him; that he is your Treasure.

We love our men.. yes we do. :reddancer:

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

:yep::yep::yep::yep:


LOL. I hadn't expected any thanks for that one ahaha. In my own case, I got lots of this kind of advice. But I always reasoned that if the head were worthless, what good would a neck be? :lachen::lachen:

[dicapr]

Your SO seems to have some other issues going on. I have been around men and women in relationships all my life who enjoyed healthy competition with each other-basketball, baseball, tennis, bowling ect. I was listening to a pastor on the radio the other day and he was saying that men do not understand how to have the "protector" role anymore with the lack of fathers in the home. They rely on sterotypes rather than seeing how they can truly be the protector of their wives or girlfriends. In his example, men can be intemeidated by a woman making more money than he does. However, the modern man does not see that he can still take the lead and be the head and protector in that situation. He said simply taking the irritating phone calls from bill collectors, dealing with problems in charges on the bills, ect can be a way to restore his place as a "man" without the need to restrict the woman to sterotypes or keep her from achieving in order to make himself feel better.

I think his sentements about what you should be as a woman speaks volumes. You need to think about what he expects your role to be in the relationship. If he has clear ideas of what feminity is and you do not meet them it is something that needs to be discussed.

[momi]

To be honest, it's the men, who actually feel they are the 'Lesser Existence', especially in this time we live in.

I know........I know, :yep:.........as women we've been 'forced' to become strong and independent in many ways, I'm one of them, for sure. :ohwell:
Yet the truth is that men simply want to feel that 'we' as women need them.

I don't think that it's the sports so much as it is the more 'aggressive' or 'rough' the sports actiiviity is, it sends a 'signal' to most men, that we competing with their strength and that we have no need for them as men.

The key word is 'signal'. And it's a signal that speaks to them, 'Hey Man, your testosterone is watered down ... literally.

Football, baseball, wrestling, boxing is 'Their' territory. And it's also activity that men quite agressively compete with other men with; it's about the challenge and with or against a woman, it's not aa fair challenge to them. Men do not want women as opponents. And history itsself shows that when men are in 'action', their strength was our attraction to them and they were always the champions of the arena, be it sports, the hunt, or corporate enterprise. :cup:

This may sound contrite, but men still need to feel their are the 'hero' and that we need them and that there's nothing obsolete about them.

As women, there are a lot of things we do which give men the signal that we do not need them. In many, many areas of life, we 'do' tend to take over, even with the 'little things'.

If he takes too long taking out the trash, 'we' become frustrated and do it ourselves.

When it comes to paying bills, as women we 'need' security, we know we can't let the lights go out or the rent/mortgage has to be paid on time, and if we make good money, we'll pay that bill, before he will, especially if we feel he's taking too long to do so. It may be in an early marriage and his finances have not been built up to have a substantial savings and he's still living check to check. The wife will tend to pay those bills when due, before he has a chance to.

In many ways, the wife thinks she's being 'helpful', but the actual message being sent to him is, "he's not needed'.

Pastor tells us that no matter how good our intentions may be or no matter how hard it may be for 'us' as wives to 'hold' back, that it is better for us to just 'hold out' a little and allow our men to feel like men, which is 'needed' more than 'we' paying the bills to them. Even in Ministry, we have to allow them as men to feel 'needed'.

As strong as I've had to become in life (being mother and father and business woman), I think it's wonderful that we still have the 'treasure' of men still among us, that think that even playing ball is too harsh for a woman.

When I'm traveling, I notice that men immediately reach for my carry on bag and place it into the overhead bins for me and when the planes have landed, they 'remember' to retrieve my bag for me, without me having to ask. Men hold doors open for me; this morning at work, a gentleman, waited for me to enter the lobby and he held the elevator for me;

My 'friend' loves that he's much taller than me (I'm 5' 1), and he loves to reach for the 'high' things that I often cannot reach. For what he's really saying is that, I want to be 'Your Hero'... let me live up to that for you, for to me you are my Queen. :love5:

I have a very active life, Dancing, gym; weight training, power walks, and I love it, but I love being a 'girl' and holding back just enough to let him be my 'hero'.

That's the 'secret', always let him feel he's your hero, and that you need him; that he is your Treasure.

We love our men.. yes we do. :reddancer:

Amen Shimmie - I love this post.

There are things I am perfectly capable of doing myself, but I call my husband to "assist" me.

You are right - a good man LOVES being a hero. I have so much I could say about this - but Shimmie you have typed a mouthful. :yep:

[AfriPrincess411]

So is everyone saying we have to "fake" being helpless in order to make men feel good? I'm sorry, but I find that kind of strange...

[AfriPrincess411]

Had a conversation with SO yesterday, stating that I wanted to have fun. He asked what I meant, and I told him play dodgeball, football, tag, be goofy (something childish and energetic). He asked me if I meant I wanted to be male:look:. I said something along the lines of is it only men that can play sports or have fun? He left the conversation off there and we didn't speak properly for the rest of the day (we were both at work emailing one another). I was the kind of girl that loved that kind of stuff as a kid, wrestling with boys, racing them (and winning) playing football with them, all of that. It was great fun. Is it that its "manly/boyish" to want to do those things as a 20 year old? I see it as me being playful and energetic.
In any case he said (not in direct reference to me ) that women were trying to be men these days (meaning that women try to do "manly" things, doing extreme sports, being power hungry, competitive etc). So it makes me wonder, where do the lines of reasonable godly feminism lie? Are we just meant to sit in skirts and talk among ourselves, fluffing about makeup, cooking and cleaning (no offense to anyone)? Not aspiring to compete with men in anything (the work force), be submissive, gentle and suscribe to what I call a "lesser existence", because to me , God has made us with differences but beyond marriage and ministry, what is social conditioning, and what is God?

I think this is nonsense. There are many extreme sports ie gymnastics, soccer, etc that women do. And when has being power hungry solely a male trait? It seems more like a HUMAN trait to want power. And being competitive is only for men? That's silly. Women are competitive in a lot of things. We see this all the time.

I'm tired of men who do not have direction (Im not talking about your SO) attempting to tell woman what their WOMANHOOD is suppose to be. If you cannot figure out your "manly" role, why tell a woman her role? It looks like a "log in your own eye" situation.

Also, human beings are very dynamic. It is not possible to put people in boxes (very stict gender roles).

[Laela]

Good question!

I think sometimes we women do ourselves an injustice by trying too hard not to "emasculate" a man... whatever that means.

So is everyone saying we have to "fake" being helpless in order to make men feel good? I'm sorry, but I find that kind of strange...

[AfriPrincess411]

To be honest, it's the men, who actually feel they are the 'Lesser Existence', especially in this time we live in.

I know........I know, :yep:.........as women we've been 'forced' to become strong and independent in many ways, I'm one of them, for sure. :ohwell:
Yet the truth is that men simply want to feel that 'we' as women need them.

I don't think that it's the sports so much as it is the more 'aggressive' or 'rough' the sports actiiviity is, it sends a 'signal' to most men, that we competing with their strength and that we have no need for them as men.

The key word is 'signal'. And it's a signal that speaks to them, 'Hey Man, your testosterone is watered down ... literally.

Football, baseball, wrestling, boxing is 'Their' territory. And it's also activity that men quite agressively compete with other men with; it's about the challenge and with or against a woman, it's not aa fair challenge to them. Men do not want women as opponents. And history itsself shows that when men are in 'action', their strength was our attraction to them and they were always the champions of the arena, be it sports, the hunt, or corporate enterprise. :cup:

This may sound contrite, but men still need to feel their are the 'hero' and that we need them and that there's nothing obsolete about them.

As women, there are a lot of things we do which give men the signal that we do not need them. In many, many areas of life, we 'do' tend to take over, even with the 'little things'.

If he takes too long taking out the trash, 'we' become frustrated and do it ourselves.

When it comes to paying bills, as women we 'need' security, we know we can't let the lights go out or the rent/mortgage has to be paid on time, and if we make good money, we'll pay that bill, before he will, especially if we feel he's taking too long to do so. It may be in an early marriage and his finances have not been built up to have a substantial savings and he's still living check to check. The wife will tend to pay those bills when due, before he has a chance to.

In many ways, the wife thinks she's being 'helpful', but the actual message being sent to him is, "he's not needed'.

Pastor tells us that no matter how good our intentions may be or no matter how hard it may be for 'us' as wives to 'hold' back, that it is better for us to just 'hold out' a little and allow our men to feel like men, which is 'needed' more than 'we' paying the bills to them. Even in Ministry, we have to allow them as men to feel 'needed'.

As strong as I've had to become in life (being mother and father and business woman), I think it's wonderful that we still have the 'treasure' of men still among us, that think that even playing ball is too harsh for a woman.

When I'm traveling, I notice that men immediately reach for my carry on bag and place it into the overhead bins for me and when the planes have landed, they 'remember' to retrieve my bag for me, without me having to ask. Men hold doors open for me; this morning at work, a gentleman, waited for me to enter the lobby and he held the elevator for me;

My 'friend' loves that he's much taller than me (I'm 5' 1), and he loves to reach for the 'high' things that I often cannot reach. For what he's really saying is that, I want to be 'Your Hero'... let me live up to that for you, for to me you are my Queen. :love5:

I have a very active life, Dancing, gym; weight training, power walks, and I love it, but I love being a 'girl' and holding back just enough to let him be my 'hero'.

That's the 'secret', always let him feel he's your hero, and that you need him; that he is your Treasure.

We love our men.. yes we do. :reddancer:

My only Hero is Christ. We should not have to put men on a pedestal to make them feel good. Whatever happened to humility?

[AfriPrincess411]

Good question!

I think sometimes we women do ourselves an injustice by trying too hard not to "emasculate" a man... whatever that means.

A true man of God doesn't need a woman to do anything in order to feel like a "man." A lot of men feel inadequate on their own. They need to take that up with God, not just merely blaming women AGAIN for their problems.

[Laela]

Well, AfriPrincess.. we are >>>>>>> here <<<<<<<

:laugh:

When two people marry they are supposed to be two whole individuals becoming one..not two halves becoming a whole. I didn't marry half a man.. :laugh: So I find it amusing that I'd feel I can't get the car door myself even if he's around. Some of that stems from "gentility" and expectations that society dictates.

I shouldn't have to do anything to make a man who is secure in himself be any more of a man than he already is.