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DivaD04
09-22-2008, 01:39 AM
....Do you believe in death row? Do you think it's inhumane? Do you think it's up to us as human beings to make a decision for one to die for their crime(s)? No matter how cruel and unusual the crime was? I've always asked myself this. I'm not really sure of the answer. I don't know if I can ever be a juror. I've turned them down like 2 or 3 x's b4. I don't know if I can mentally handle a situation like that. I feel this is one of those eye for an eye. I do believe in getting folks off the streets but when I start playing God and making decisions I would think only he makes....I question whether or not this is wrong. I would make a poll but nah, I'll pass on it because it's more a conversation piece rather than a poll. And one last thing, does capital punishment conflict with the bible?

Aviah
09-22-2008, 09:22 AM
I do not believe in death row at all. I agree with sending these people to jail and possibly getting some counseling for them.
As for it being biblical or not, the old testament says death is the punishment for a lot of things. Sleeping with an animal, adultery, even a man's oxen killing another man who had prior knowledge of it being violent (from what I remember) warranted death! But under the new covenant, I don't think we can do that...
Good question, I want to hear from the other ladies too...

tmichelle
09-22-2008, 11:46 AM
I used to not believe in the death penalty because I felt, "well, if they are going to hell, might as well give them every chance of repentance before hand". Then when I started reading the Bible more faithfully I realized that God actually requires it. He required it before the Old Testament was even set in place. He required it after the fall when He set the ground rules for humanity in general.

Gen. 9:4-6 He said, " 4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.

I then realized that I was not more righteous or loving than God. He loved us so much that he of course sent his only son to die for us in our stead (and I have issues just paying attention in church service sometimes). I am not more noble, righteous, forgiving or loving than God. God is love so apparently so is the death penalty for those who take the life of man.

DivaD04
09-22-2008, 12:04 PM
I used to not believe in the death penalty because I felt, "well, if they are going to hell, might as well give them every chance of repentance before hand". Then when I started reading the Bible more faithfully I realized that God actually requires it. He required it before the Old Testament was even set in place. He required it after the fall when He set the ground rules for humanity in general.

Gen. 9:4-6 He said, " 4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.

I then realized that I was not more righteous or loving than God. He loved us so much that he of course sent his only son to die for us in our stead (and I have issues just paying attention in church service sometimes). I am not more noble, righteous, forgiving or loving than God. God is love so apparently so is the death penalty for those who take the life of man.


is this saying God is okay with the death penalty here on earth? i just want to be sure i'm understanding this clearly.

MizzBrown
09-22-2008, 12:10 PM
When you think about all the folks who are currently sitting on death row as we speak who are INNOCENT due to our piss poor justice system then i say no.

Why? Because i can be somewhere at the wrong place and wrong time, be innocent and still end up on death row in America...it could be me.

You know how many people have been killed based on personal opinions before DNA testing was even brought into the court system?

MsSharee06
09-22-2008, 01:34 PM
When you think about all the folks who are currently sitting on death row as we speak who are INNOCENT due to our piss poor justice system then i say no.

Why? Because i can be somewhere at the wrong place and wrong time, be innocent and still end up on death row in America...it could be me.

You know how many people have been killed based on personal opinions before DNA testing was even brought into the court system?

I totally agree, I don't agree with the death penalty. I don't feel it's our responsibility as humans to place the death penalty on another human, it's like who are we to do something like that. I believe vengence is the Lord's and if you let the person who committed the crime live long enough, God will deal with that person in his own way, they will eventually feel the consequences of their actions.

Duchesse
09-22-2008, 04:10 PM
I don't believe/agree with the death penalty for some reasons that were already mentioned.

There are currently innocent people sitting on death row who for lack of funds, inadequate and/or racist jury-legal system, false evidence/testimony, whatever, the point is that they did not commit a crime, so how is it just that they should be sentenced to death?

There are individuals who have committed heinous crimes and may not be repentant for their acts, and may never repent. But if you believe in God and his judgment, don't you think that it is adequate (I'm talking about punishment of the spirit)? I also think that the death penalty is depriving certain individuals the opportunity to reflect upon their life and actions, and poss. seek forgiveness and change the path of their life

And the hippy in me is against it for hippy reasons.

Keen
09-22-2008, 04:19 PM
I used to not believe in the death penalty because I felt, "well, if they are going to hell, might as well give them every chance of repentance before hand". Then when I started reading the Bible more faithfully I realized that God actually requires it. He required it before the Old Testament was even set in place. He required it after the fall when He set the ground rules for humanity in general.

Gen. 9:4-6 He said, " 4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.

I then realized that I was not more righteous or loving than God. He loved us so much that he of course sent his only son to die for us in our stead (and I have issues just paying attention in church service sometimes). I am not more noble, righteous, forgiving or loving than God. God is love so apparently so is the death penalty for those who take the life of man.

What about "Thou shall not kill"

tmichelle
09-23-2008, 09:06 AM
is this saying God is okay with the death penalty here on earth? i just want to be sure i'm understanding this clearly.

Not only does He say He's okay with it, He actually requires it based on the fact that He made man in His image therefore it is NOT okay to kill man and for killing a man, the punishment is a forfeiture of your life.

tmichelle
09-23-2008, 09:10 AM
What about "Thou shall not kill"

Thou shalt not kill has to do with taking an innocent person's life, not a guilty persons. All througout the scripture God tells his holy people to completely dessimate a country that became so wrapped up in sin. And God says this despite the fact that He stated in His commandments, "Thou shalt not kill". One cannot divorce God's statement from the whole context of scripture (not saying you are trying to do this at all, I've just seen it way too much elsewhere).

So if you study where God allows killing through the scriptures, it has to do with the guilt of an individual or society. If a society and individual are innocent, then the innocent blood rests on the head of the killer and the killer's blood is required to atone for it.

tmichelle
09-23-2008, 09:15 AM
When you think about all the folks who are currently sitting on death row as we speak who are INNOCENT due to our piss poor justice system then i say no.

Why? Because i can be somewhere at the wrong place and wrong time, be innocent and still end up on death row in America...it could be me.

You know how many people have been killed based on personal opinions before DNA testing was even brought into the court system?

While I agree with you that innocent people should NEVER be put to death for so-called crimes, your statement doesn't address the issue that God requires death for those who are guilty. There are enough guilty people, proven with DNA testing etc. that should be put to death but are not.

Aviah
09-23-2008, 09:53 AM
Not only does He say He's okay with it, He actually requires it based on the fact that He made man in His image therefore it is NOT okay to kill man and for killing a man, the punishment is a forfeiture of your life.

I still don't understand. If A kills B it is wrong because B was in God's image, so C must kill B because of the crime?
Personally I don't think we have that authority (as previously mentioned)

tmichelle
09-23-2008, 10:06 AM
I still don't understand. If A kills B it is wrong because B was in God's image, so C must kill B because of the crime?
Personally I don't think we have that authority (as previously mentioned)

Don't take my word for it, hear is what God says,

Gen. 9:4-6 He said, " 4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.

Whatever issue you have with it, take it up with Him. I am not one to mitigate His words based on my own experiences/culture etc., so I have no problem with whatever it is He wishes.

MizzBrown
09-23-2008, 10:11 AM
While I agree with you that innocent people should NEVER be put to death for so-called crimes, your statement doesn't address the issue that God requires death for those who are guilty. There are enough guilty people, proven with DNA testing etc. that should be put to death but are not.

Nope, not in america. My DNA can still end up on somebody even though i didn't kill them and i can still end up innocent on death row.

There are still innocent folks sittin on death row even with DNA testing and many that are dead...THOUSANDS of cases like this. Cirumstantial evidence.

Tell me how you feel about involuntary manslaughter? You didn't mean to kill the person but you did? Who's to say you didn't do it on purpose?

Too many loopholes involved to just go off and put someone to death.

And IMO, God requires death for a lot of different things. Why aren't folks being put to death for it? You do for one, then folks will want you to do for all. Killing isn't the only one.

tmichelle
09-23-2008, 03:54 PM
Nope, not in america. My DNA can still end up on somebody even though i didn't kill them and i can still end up innocent on death row.

There are still innocent folks sittin on death row even with DNA testing and many that are dead...THOUSANDS of cases like this. Cirumstantial evidence.

Tell me how you feel about involuntary manslaughter? You didn't mean to kill the person but you did? Who's to say you didn't do it on purpose?

Too many loopholes involved to just go off and put someone to death.

And IMO, God requires death for a lot of different things. Why aren't folks being put to death for it? You do for one, then folks will want you to do for all. Killing isn't the only one.

Yes, America's justice system is terribly lacking. That doesn't mean we get a free pass to ignore God's Word because we have a messed up nation. One reason it is messed up to begin with is that we have ignored His word. Also, when He puts something so plainly, what excuse will we have for ignoring it. I can see us now trying to blame our justice system, well, He could easily say, you should fix that justice system but do not do away/ignore my word in light of it.

Involuntary manslaughter is also addressed in scripture. They had cities of refuge for those. (Involuntary manslaughter like a lot of other crimes are covered under the Old Covenant/Testament), capital punishment for killing someone was actually put in place before the Old Covenant, it was given to all people.

Interestingly enough when God gave laws during the Old Covenant, there was no prison. God never had people imprisoned for anything. He either had them killed if the crime was severe enough or he had them pay restitution.

Aviah
09-23-2008, 09:59 PM
Don't take my word for it, hear is what God says,

Gen. 9:4-6 He said, " 4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.

Whatever issue you have with it, take it up with Him. I am not one to mitigate His words based on my own experiences/culture etc., so I have no problem with whatever it is He wishes.

I'm not saying it's not true, just want to understand it. With this said I haven't seen anything the New testament that commands us to kill a guilty party. I think of the woman caught in the adulterous act, where, under the law she should have been stoned. But instead Jesus said he without sin cast the first stone. Under the old testament it was eye for an eye, but Jesus said we should turn the other check, or if a man sins against you seven times in a day and asks for repentance, forgive him. Love our neighbors... You know? I'm not sure where the death penalty fits in...

Crown
09-24-2008, 07:55 AM
Capital punishment, is it a crime within itself?
If it's a judgement of God, it's not a crime like in the old time or the last, because He knows.
If it's a human judgement, It's a crime! Because no human shall deprive ANY person of the grace of the Lord Jesus-Christ!

tmichelle
09-24-2008, 08:43 AM
I'm not saying it's not true, just want to understand it. With this said I haven't seen anything the New testament that commands us to kill a guilty party. I think of the woman caught in the adulterous act, where, under the law she should have been stoned. But instead Jesus said he without sin cast the first stone. Under the old testament it was eye for an eye, but Jesus said we should turn the other check, or if a man sins against you seven times in a day and asks for repentance, forgive him. Love our neighbors... You know? I'm not sure where the death penalty fits in...

The woman caught in adultery is actually a good point to consider. Personally I really appreciate it when people bring up Biblical points to consider like this one as opposed to the ,"I just don't feel like it is right type arguments. I have felt a lot of things in the past that turned out to be erroneous.

With that said, adultery was specifically condemned in the Old Testament (the Law of Moses), in Gen. 9:4 God tells the world that man was made in His image and if someone takes man's life, his life is required in its stead was given to all men by God before the Isrealite nation was established (1,000+ years I believe).

The people trying to kill the woman caught in adultery were the teachers of the law [of Moses] and the Pharisees. (By the way, these lawyers and Pharisees weren't well thought of by Jesus and his followers because they were hypocrits). These people were judging her by the law of Moses as they themselves were breaking it and Christ asked them to examine themselves first.

But the biggest example in my mind that capital punishment wasn't done away with in the New Testament is the fact that the New Testament was implimented by capital punishment (which actually happened to be after the adulterous woman issue). God always required blood for our sins. In Moses' time God would use the blood of animals to push sins towards the cross and in our time God uses the blood of Christ. Even with the blood of animals God still required death by those who took man's life. God is gracious and still pardoned people even when Isreal was it's own nation. He pardoned David for being an adulterer and murderer (by having Uriah killed) but even then someone's blood was still required and sadly enough that turned out to be the innocent baby of David and Bathsheba (that's another truth, someone who is innocent is the only viable sacrifice for the guilty). Basically to put it bluntly, someone's got to die.

That is not to say that man is hopeless, as you see while on the cross Christ forgave the thief that was dying next to him. Despite what our earthly death is (due to our sin or not) we can still be with Him if we so choose).

ETA: To address your last issue of turning the other cheek and forgiving, you are right, as a Christian we must do that. But if you notice that others (in our case our legal system) are still responsible for holding the guilty accountable. As we all know Christ forgave us and those who put him to death, Peter then went and held them accountable on the day of Pentacost. There is to be justice (and mercy) while we are here. If not then we would have no reason for any justice system at all. If you remember Rom. 13:1-7 says

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Also, take note that Paul refers to the authorities bearing the sword. That would also be an indication of the death penalty.

DivaD04
09-24-2008, 03:23 PM
The woman caught in adultery is actually a good point to consider. Personally I really appreciate it when people bring up Biblical points to consider like this one as opposed to the ,"I just don't feel like it is right type arguments. I have felt a lot of things in the past that turned out to be erroneous.

With that said, adultery was specifically condemned in the Old Testament (the Law of Moses), in Gen. 9:4 God tells the world that man was made in His image and if someone takes man's life, his life is required in its stead was given to all men by God before the Isrealite nation was established (1,000+ years I believe).

The people trying to kill the woman caught in adultery were the teachers of the law [of Moses] and the Pharisees. (By the way, these lawyers and Pharisees weren't well thought of by Jesus and his followers because they were hypocrits). These people were judging her by the law of Moses as they themselves were breaking it and Christ asked them to examine themselves first.

But the biggest example in my mind that capital punishment wasn't done away with in the New Testament is the fact that the New Testament was implimented by capital punishment (which actually happened to be after the adulterous woman issue). God always required blood for our sins. In Moses' time God would use the blood of animals to push sins towards the cross and in our time God uses the blood of Christ. Even with the blood of animals God still required death by those who took man's life. God is gracious and still pardoned people even when Isreal was it's own nation. He pardoned David for being an adulterer and murderer (by having Uriah killed) but even then someone's blood was still required and sadly enough that turned out to be the innocent baby of David and Bathsheba (that's another truth, someone who is innocent is the only viable sacrifice for the guilty). Basically to put it bluntly, someone's got to die.

That is not to say that man is hopeless, as you see while on the cross Christ forgave the thief that was dying next to him. Despite what our earthly death is (due to our sin or not) we can still be with Him if we so choose).

ETA: To address your last issue of turning the other cheek and forgiving, you are right, as a Christian we must do that. But if you notice that others (in our case our legal system) are still responsible for holding the guilty accountable. As we all know Christ forgave us and those who put him to death, Peter then went and held them accountable on the day of Pentacost. There is to be justice (and mercy) while we are here. If not then we would have no reason for any justice system at all. If you remember Rom. 13:1-7 says

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Also, take note that Paul refers to the authorities bearing the sword. That would also be an indication of the death penalty.

TM very well put ITA!! i didn't know how to put this in words b/c earlier i was reading and researching this morning.

Aviah
09-26-2008, 09:53 AM
The woman caught in adultery is actually a good point to consider. Personally I really appreciate it when people bring up Biblical points to consider like this one as opposed to the ,"I just don't feel like it is right type arguments. I have felt a lot of things in the past that turned out to be erroneous.

With that said, adultery was specifically condemned in the Old Testament (the Law of Moses), in Gen. 9:4 God tells the world that man was made in His image and if someone takes man's life, his life is required in its stead was given to all men by God before the Isrealite nation was established (1,000+ years I believe).

The people trying to kill the woman caught in adultery were the teachers of the law [of Moses] and the Pharisees. (By the way, these lawyers and Pharisees weren't well thought of by Jesus and his followers because they were hypocrits). These people were judging her by the law of Moses as they themselves were breaking it and Christ asked them to examine themselves first.

But the biggest example in my mind that capital punishment wasn't done away with in the New Testament is the fact that the New Testament was implimented by capital punishment (which actually happened to be after the adulterous woman issue). God always required blood for our sins. In Moses' time God would use the blood of animals to push sins towards the cross and in our time God uses the blood of Christ. Even with the blood of animals God still required death by those who took man's life. God is gracious and still pardoned people even when Isreal was it's own nation. He pardoned David for being an adulterer and murderer (by having Uriah killed) but even then someone's blood was still required and sadly enough that turned out to be the innocent baby of David and Bathsheba (that's another truth, someone who is innocent is the only viable sacrifice for the guilty). Basically to put it bluntly, someone's got to die.

That is not to say that man is hopeless, as you see while on the cross Christ forgave the thief that was dying next to him. Despite what our earthly death is (due to our sin or not) we can still be with Him if we so choose).

ETA: To address your last issue of turning the other cheek and forgiving, you are right, as a Christian we must do that. But if you notice that others (in our case our legal system) are still responsible for holding the guilty accountable. As we all know Christ forgave us and those who put him to death, Peter then went and held them accountable on the day of Pentacost. There is to be justice (and mercy) while we are here. If not then we would have no reason for any justice system at all. If you remember Rom. 13:1-7 says

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Also, take note that Paul refers to the authorities bearing the sword. That would also be an indication of the death penalty.

You seem to have misquoted,
Gen 9:4 says:
"But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it"

I agree with Jesus getting them to examine themselves, yet still, after they left, he said
(John 8:9-11)
"Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
With him being our example, and his judgment being righteous, aren't we to follow suit?
With that said of course, I'm not saying they should be let free but IMHO you will reap what you sow, they should go to jail...


I understand a blood sacrifice was needed for every sin, and it has to be a pure one, innocent, thus why Jesus died for ours, after his death we no longer need to kill things when we sin. His blood is enough.
Roman 12:1

[ Living Sacrifices ] Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship.


What I don't understand is if the sacrifice has to be pure and holy, then how can we die for our own sin and it be atoned for?


Possibly off topic: I've wondered about the above scripture about God putting authorities in place... In the world today many dishonor Him greatly. Some disallow the worship of him... :perplexed