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Caramela
10-23-2007, 09:41 AM
According to 1 Timothy 2:12-14 and 1 Timothy chapter 3 the word tells us that a woman teaching in service isn't acceptable for public worship. It is there for me in black and white so I have no choice but to believe it, and since I have no desire to be a preacher myself, it doesn't bother me in the least. However, I have friends that this really bothers... and I can't seem to figure out why.

What are your thoughts on what is written?

Nice & Wavy
10-23-2007, 10:12 AM
Deleted as this was not the thread to post my opinion in.

Blessing to all!

Caramela
10-23-2007, 10:16 AM
This is to gather thoughts on what is written, nice and wavy, not to be a personal attack to you or ask you to defend your actions.
I appreciate you sharing what you think my question should be, but if you want to pose those questions on what I should be asking in another thread, feel free...
This is an open discussion for God's word, and not our human spins on what we feel is right...

Nice & Wavy
10-23-2007, 10:18 AM
This is to gather thoughts on what is written, nice and wavy, not to be a personal attack to you or ask you to defend your actions.
I appreciate you sharing what you think my question should be, but if you want to pose those questions on what I should be asking in another thread, feel free...
This is an open discussion for God's word, and not our human spins on what we feel is right...

I apologize then, and will delete my post. Didn't mean to put a "human spin on what I felt was right for me."

Blessings again to you!

Caramela
10-23-2007, 10:30 AM
I apologize then, and will delete my post. Didn't mean to put a "human spin on what I felt was right for me."

Blessings again to you!

Thank you. I've edited my question as well. I will keep you in prayer.

PaperClip
10-23-2007, 10:33 AM
According to 1 Timothy 1:12-14 and 1 Timothy chapter 3 the word tells us that a woman teaching in service isn't acceptable for public worship. It is there for me in black and white so I have no choice but to believe it, and since I have no desire to be a preacher myself, it doesn't bother me in the least. However, I have friends that this really bothers... and I can't seem to figure out why.

What are your thoughts on what is written and what your feelings about female preachers?

Here's what 1 Timothy 1:12-14 says:"And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus."

Here's the first verse of 1 Timothy 3: "This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work."

So I'm not clear as to how you conclude that, according to the aforementioned scriptures, that women are not to teach.... I've heard some scriptures said to mean that women are not to teach men, but women teach boys (pre-men) in Sunday School, yes? What's the difference?

I'll toss this into the conversation: The Bible says this in John 1:"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Mary CARRIED the WORD in her womb.... Mary DELIVERED that WORD to the WORLD...IN PUBLIC....

Amen.

Nice & Wavy
10-23-2007, 10:36 AM
Thank you. I've edited my question as well. I will keep you in prayer.

Hey, thank you for keeping me in your prayers, as I always do pray for you as well!

Blessings!

Caramela
10-23-2007, 10:48 AM
Here's what 1 Timothy 1:12-14 says:"And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus."

Here's the first verse of 1 Timothy 3: "This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work."

So I'm not clear as to how you conclude that, according to the aforementioned scriptures, that women are not to teach.... I've heard some scriptures said to mean that women are not to teach men, but women teach boys (pre-men) in Sunday School, yes? What's the difference?

I'll toss this into the conversation: The Bible says this in John 1:"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Mary CARRIED the WORD in her womb.... Mary DELIVERED that WORD to the WORLD...IN PUBLIC....

Amen.

I apologize! It's not chapter 1, it's chapter 2:12-14

Which says
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor usurp authority over a man, but to be in silence
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve
14 And Adam was not decieved, but the woman being decieved was in the transgression


again, my apologies for misquoting, I will have to edit that typo.

Mary delivered our savior in a literal sense, Mary was not preaching the word of God.


And the second scripture, the 3rd chapter of 1st Timothy is telling us the requirements of MEN who wish to hold coucil in the church... it speaks of their character requirements, the requirements of their wives, etc... it doesn't speak of WOMEN who wish to hold council nor the requirements of their husbands.

PaperClip
10-23-2007, 12:02 PM
I apologize! It's not chapter 1, it's chapter 2:12-14

Which says
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor usurp authority over a man, but to be in silence
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve
14 And Adam was not decieved, but the woman being decieved was in the transgression


again, my apologies for misquoting, I will have to edit that typo.

Mary delivered our savior in a literal sense, Mary was not preaching the word of God.


And the second scripture, the 3rd chapter of 1st Timothy is telling us the requirements of MEN who wish to hold coucil in the church... it speaks of their character requirements, the requirements of their wives, etc... it doesn't speak of WOMEN who wish to hold council nor the requirements of their husbands.

Yes, I'm well aware that Mary delivered our Savior in the literal sense, and at the same time, our Lord works in parables, proverbs, metaphors, and symbolism to convey and bring understanding to us. Mary was everywhere that Jesus went. She wasn't mute. She was right alongside those in the Upper Room when the Holy Spirit SUDDENLY fell upon the 120 "waiting" there. (BTW, how can something be "sudden" if you were already "waiting" there for it? (Smile!))



Yes... amen... ok.... My feeble understanding regarding 1 Timothy 2 was that, as these are LETTERS to specific churches, that these were the issues that these specific churches were dealing with, e.g., Ephesus, in this case?.... And so there, the women were taking over, if you will, asking questions during the teaching, gossipping, etc. So things had to be set in order for them to learn and "study to be quiet and obedience along with everyone else" (verse from The Message). Here it is forbidding them to TEACH. And then think about it this way: what's the point of studying and learning something without the opportunity to APPLY IT? And yes, there several ways to APPLY it, e.g., knowing how to live, teaching to the children at home, and yes, sharing the gospel with others, in and out of the church/pulpit.

Further, Timothy goes on to say "On the other hand, her childbearing brought about salvation, reversing Eve." (verse in 1 Timothy 2 from The Message). The birth, death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ FULFILLED and the voids of the Old Testament covenant, bringing the husband and wife to walk, work, and live BESIDE each other.... Yes, we are the "weaker" vessel, but only in BODY FORMATION (we don't have as much muscle as men), but the Lord has also anointed women to do a great work. 1 Peter 3:7 says: "The same goes for you husbands: Be good husbands to your wives. Honor them, delight in them. As women they lack some of your advantages. But in the new life of God's grace, you're equals. Treat your wives, then, as equals so your prayers don't run aground."

One biblical example of this "equality in ministry" is Aquilla and Pricilla. Here are SIX references about them. You don't see them mentioned separately from one another. Acts 18:2; Acts 18:18; Acts 18:26; Romans 16:3; 1 Corinthians 16:19; and 2 Timothy 4:19.

With regard to the office of a bishop, yes, according to the criteria listed, it would seem that such an office is reserved for a man. But bishops do much more than teach. They oversee churches, some might even plant churches moving in an apostolic realm. These criteria DO NOT speak about forbidding women to teach.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "hold council"....

Caramela
10-23-2007, 12:14 PM
Yes, I'm well aware that Mary delivered our Savior in the literal sense, and at the same time, our Lord works in parables, proverbs, metaphors, and symbolism to convey and bring understanding to us. Mary was everywhere that Jesus went. She wasn't mute. She was right alongside those in the Upper Room when the Holy Spirit SUDDENLY fell upon the 120 "waiting" there. (BTW, how can something be "sudden" if you were already "waiting" there for it? (Smile!))



Yes... amen... ok.... My feeble understanding regarding 1 Timothy 2 was that, as these are LETTERS to specific churches, that these were the issues that these specific churches were dealing with, e.g., Ephesus, in this case?.... And so there, the women were taking over, if you will, asking questions during the teaching, gossipping, etc. So things had to be set in order for them to learn and "study to be quiet and obedience along with everyone else" (verse from The Message). Here it is forbidding them to TEACH. And then think about it this way: what's the point of studying and learning something without the opportunity to APPLY IT? And yes, there several ways to APPLY it, e.g., knowing how to live, teaching to the children at home, and yes, sharing the gospel with others, in and out of the church/pulpit.

Further, Timothy goes on to say "On the other hand, her childbearing brought about salvation, reversing Eve." (verse in 1 Timothy 2 from The Message). The birth, death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ FULFILLED and the voids of the Old Testament covenant, bringing the husband and wife to walk, work, and live BESIDE each other.... Yes, we are the "weaker" vessel, but only in BODY FORMATION (we don't have as much muscle as men), but the Lord has also anointed women to do a great work. 1 Peter 3:7 says: "The same goes for you husbands: Be good husbands to your wives. Honor them, delight in them. As women they lack some of your advantages. But in the new life of God's grace, you're equals. Treat your wives, then, as equals so your prayers don't run aground."

One biblical example of this "equality in ministry" is Aquilla and Pricilla. Here are SIX references about them. You don't see them mentioned separately from one another. Acts 18:2; Acts 18:18; Acts 18:26; Romans 16:3; 1 Corinthians 16:19; and 2 Timothy 4:19.

With regard to the office of a bishop, yes, according to the criteria listed, it would seem that such an office is reserved for a man. But bishops do much more than teach. They oversee churches, some might even plant churches moving in an apostolic realm. These criteria DO NOT speak about forbidding women to teach.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "hold council"....

I mean the title or position of bishops & deacons in the church when I used the term council.
Will you please post those other scriptures you mentioned if you have the oppurtunity?

I'm aware of the letters written for the churches in Ephesus but the same things that women were doing back then, they're doing today (gossiping, speaking out, trying to "run things"...) and the letters that applied to the churches in Ephesus also apply to the churches of the world today.
In Timothy chapter 2:15 the bible does say that Eve is saved in childbearing IF she continues in fatih and charity and holiness with sobriety. Meaning she has recieved her punishment for what she did wrong, but will not parish if she continues to believe, be giving and loving, and seek God's favor... but it still doesn't direct a woman to take authority over and teach a man.
I agree with you that our weakness comes in the physical sense, and not anything else. But as women we have a role defined by the bible, as does a man.
There is nothing wrong with a woman teaching other women, or men that may not be saved, but otherwise, based on what I've read scripturally so far, it's not a woman's place to be leading a congregation and preaching in a church.
(however, I'd be interested to read the scriptures you mentioned and go from there... )

Caramela
10-23-2007, 01:26 PM
During my break I had the oppurtnity to read each scripture you mentioned, and while the husband and wife are not mentioned seperately of one another I am still not able to see that Priscilla was a preacher... it does show me that her and her husband were one and together did God's work... but it doesn't show me in clear certain terms that she was preaching.
I read it a few times, and perhaps I need to read each chapter to find this... But let me go back to it, perhaps I missed where it said that. :yep:

Nice & Wavy
10-23-2007, 01:36 PM
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