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cocoberry10
12-29-2006, 04:24 PM
Hi Ladies:

This topic has been on my mind a lot lately. It's in reference to 2 areas of salvation.

1) If you become a saved (i.e. born again) believer, is it possible to lose this salvation, and if so, how? (Ex: If I am baptized, and then I go live my life how I want, sinning without a sense of reality, can I still go to Heaven?)

2) Does a spouse's faith save the unbelieving spouse if the believing spouse dies first? (I know the bible refers to this in terms of a believing spouse being able to save their unbelieving spouse, but I am interested)

I hope these questions make sense!:)

1god1
12-30-2006, 02:58 AM
I probably shouldn't be replying...but.....from what i've learned...

1. An unbelieving spouse isn't saved by the believing spouse. According to the word, you have to believe and work out salvation for yourself. Philippians 2:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=2&verse=12&version=9&context=verse) Work it out with fear and trembling. Plus I've never ever read where an unbeliever is covered by a believer for the sake of going to heaven.


2. Some folx believe "once saved, always saved"..or eternal security. I don't think God leave you....you leave HIM. If you can get saved, and then do whatever, what's the point? Doesn't there have to be a renewal of the mind?

length4me
12-30-2006, 05:35 PM
I believe salvation is a gift from God so in that sense we can't really lose it. I believe that if a person lives life as a carnal Christian then they never were really saved or have committed apostasy. I found this info on the web:

Why isn't our salvation eternally secured the moment we accept Jesus? When you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, you are entering into a covenant relationship with Him. In Scripture we see God's promises for those who enter into this covenant as well as what He expects from man in order to uphold our part of the covenant. The key here is that it takes 2 to make and keep a covenant. Our salvation is not all on God (as we have seen above, there are conditions we have to meet) neither is it all on us (He gave His Son, He forgives when we repent...). Although God is faithful to always meet His part of the covenant, man is not always faithful. When we disregard our part of the covenant we have made with God, the covenant has been broken.

Finally, we will leave you with the following Scripture from Hebrews 10:26-29:

"For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

comike
12-30-2006, 08:39 PM
I agree with an earlier post that our salvation is a gift from God and it was given to us by His grace. His grace continues forever and ever. I've never found anything in the bible that states salvation can be lost for if that were the case you could say that His blood that was shed for our sake was inadequate.

cocoberry10
12-30-2006, 10:20 PM
Thanks for the replies!

BabeinChrist
12-30-2006, 10:43 PM
I agree with an earlier post that our salvation is a gift from God and it was given to us by His grace. His grace continues forever and ever. I've never found anything in the bible that states salvation can be loss for if that were the case you could say that His blood that was shed for our sake was inadequate.

ITA---My Pastor talked about this in Bible Study, saying that you cannot lose your Salvation. I am so glad of this fact, because I would have NO HOPE of getting into Heaven if this was a possibility. Jesus talks about this in John, Chapter 10: 24-30:

24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30I and my Father are one.
31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

alexstin
12-31-2006, 10:50 AM
I believe as Length4me stated that we do enter into a covenant with the Lord. God has agreed to give us a life that's abundant in Him and we have agreed to live a life of obedience and worship towards Him.

We are commanded to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" Heb 2:12. Now why do we have to work out our salvation? There's a definite sacrifice on our part.

I don't believe you have to live in fear of losing your salvation but to think we can live anyway we want after we accept Him is contrary to scripture.

kbragg
12-31-2006, 02:19 PM
No man can pluck us out of His hand, but we can jump out, or in most cases never really be there in the first place (false conversion).

alexstin
12-31-2006, 02:41 PM
No man can pluck us out of His hand, but we can jump out, or in most cases never really be there in the first place (false conversion).


That struck me as so funny:lachen: ! It's true, very true!;)

pebbles
12-31-2006, 02:54 PM
No man can pluck us out of His hand, but we can jump out, or in most cases never really be there in the first place (false conversion).

Bingo!! :up:

comike
12-31-2006, 05:42 PM
I think Charles Stanley explained it nicely:

"If you believe that your salvation came about by anything other than simply believing in what Jesus Christ did for you on the cross, then you believe that your salvation was in some way related to your own will and to your own works. If you believe that your salvation is related to your will and your works, then you will believe that your will and your works can in some way "undo" or negate your salvation.


On the other hand, if you believe that your salvation was based solely on what Jesus did for you and what the Holy Spirit has done in you, then you believe that your salvation was a sovereign work of God. Your part was simply to believe and receive what God provided and what God promised. The person who believes this must therefore conclude that since he did absolutely nothing to transform his old sin nature into a new spiritual nature, he cannot do anything to cause his new spiritual nature to revert to his old nature."

Again, to say that your salvation can be lost is to say that His blood was inadequate to save us from sin once and for all.

cocoberry10
12-31-2006, 06:23 PM
Thanks for responses, you've given me a lot to think about!

kbragg
01-01-2007, 11:18 AM
I think Charles Stanley explained it nicely:

"If you believe that your salvation came about by anything other than simply believing in what Jesus Christ did for you on the cross, then you believe that your salvation was in some way related to your own will and to your own works. If you believe that your salvation is related to your will and your works, then you will believe that your will and your works can in some way "undo" or negate your salvation.


On the other hand, if you believe that your salvation was based solely on what Jesus did for you and what the Holy Spirit has done in you, then you believe that your salvation was a sovereign work of God. Your part was simply to believe and receive what God provided and what God promised. The person who believes this must therefore conclude that since he did absolutely nothing to transform his old sin nature into a new spiritual nature, he cannot do anything to cause his new spiritual nature to revert to his old nature."

Again, to say that your salvation can be lost is to say that His blood was inadequate to save us from sin once and for all.

I don't really agree with the second part. Yes, our Salvation is a gift of grace. BUT we have to keep it! We didn't do anything to get it, but we have to keep ourselves. Part of us having free will. We can willfully choose to walk away from God. You CAN give a gift back or in most cases - throw the gift away.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Notice the bolded part. Through FAITH. Faith is a choice. We have to believe. If we stop believing, which is shown by the fruit in our lives, then we are NOT saved. I believe God has grace with each of us, however He will not go against His own Word:

Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Ok, so the Word is very clear. Such WERE some of you. Meaning if someone continues in sin, they are no longer saved, if they were saved in the first place. The problem lies in the "new age Gospel" which preaches, "come to Jesus and have a wonderful life!"

Check out this video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4253981354315335400&q=True+%26+False+Conversion it'll make it make more sense.

Can someone who rejects God and becomes an Atheist still go to Heaven? No. I believe that 80% of those who fall back are false converts, and 20% really were repentant, but they willfully choose death over life.

cocoberry10
01-01-2007, 11:49 AM
I don't really agree with the second part. Yes, our Salvation is a gift of grace. BUT we have to keep it! We didn't do anything to get it, but we have to keep ourselves. Part of us having free will. We can willfully choose to walk away from God. You CAN give a gift back or in most cases - throw the gift away.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Notice the bolded part. Through FAITH. Faith is a choice. We have to believe. If we stop believing, which is shown by the fruit in our lives, then we are NOT saved. I believe God has grace with each of us, however He will not go against His own Word:

Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Ok, so the Word is very clear. Such WERE some of you. Meaning if someone continues in sin, they are no longer saved, if they were saved in the first place. The problem lies in the "new age Gospel" which preaches, "come to Jesus and have a wonderful life!"

Check out this video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4253981354315335400&q=True+%26+False+Conversion it'll make it make more sense.

Can someone who rejects God and becomes an Atheist still go to Heaven? No. I believe that 80% of those who fall back are false converts, and 20% really were repentant, but they willfully choose death over life.


I agree with you, especially the bolded part!

comike
01-01-2007, 12:19 PM
So do I believe I have the power to thwart the purposes of God? Once God has made up His mind He is going to do something, do you think you have the power to throw a wrench into the works and foul things up? To believe that a man or woman can lose his or her salvation is to believe that a human being can frustrate the eternal purpose of God.

God has plans for all those who were dead in their trespasses and sins and have been made alive with Christ. To hold to a theology in which man can do something that throws him back into a state of spiritual deadness, thus denying God His predetermined purpose, is to embrace a system in which man is in the driver's seat and God is just a passenger.

kbragg
01-01-2007, 01:16 PM
So do I believe I have the power to thwart the purposes of God? Once God has made up His mind He is going to do something, do you think you have the power to throw a wrench into the works and foul things up? To believe that a man or woman can lose his or her salvation is to believe that a human being can frustrate the eternal purpose of God.

God has plans for all those who were dead in their trespasses and sins and have been made alive with Christ. To hold to a theology in which man can do something that throws him back into a state of spiritual deadness, thus denying God His predetermined purpose, is to embrace a system in which man is in the driver's seat and God is just a passenger.

But see, you are forgetting that God gave us free will. He wants us to willfully love Him, not force us to. Think of it this way, if your spouse cheated on you over and over, appologized once, and then went back to cheating, never repentant, could care less about you, are you going to force yourself on him? No. He has the free will just as God has gien to us. Solomon turned back. MANY of the most devout Atheists were former ministers. They denied God after supposerdly being saved for years. They live in sin. They're not repentant. Short of repenting on their death bed, can they go to heaven? Will God have un-repentant sinners in heaven? No. Read the scriptures I posted. They're very clear. Check out the video. Darwin, the father of evolution, a devout atheist and racist, was once an evangelist. He was decieved by the devil, turned away from God, and died in his sin. IMO he is NOT in Heaven. Guess we'll know when we get there.;) One thing is certain, read the whole New Testament, God's Word is clear. We are to keep ourselves upspotted from the world. I'm not talking about slipping up and being truly sorry, but willfully sinning and continuing in it. A friend of mine put it best, "Saved by Grace, Kept by Obidience."

So the question remains, if someone can willingly sin, walk away from God, though they once really sincerely believed, can they go to heaven? Were they ever really saved?

Romans 8: 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And the favorite:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Can you still be saved if you stop believing? See, that's where we come in. Read through Matthew. Jesus says over and over your FAITH has saved you, your FAITH has healed you. If someone stops having faith, stops believing and turns to a life of sin, can they go to Heaven?

kbragg
01-01-2007, 01:35 PM
So save space I will post the Bible study we did on this in another thread. :)

ETA, to keep from having to post 100 pages of text LOL I saved it as PDF on my site, but still created the thread because I said I would lol: http://www.whoiskassandrabragg.com/Saved_by_Grace.pdf

upandcoming
01-01-2007, 01:38 PM
This is a really good question. I just came from a 5-day conference and I wish they had addressed this topic.

live2bgr8
01-01-2007, 03:24 PM
Mark 16:16 says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

Acts15:11 says, "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus..."

Acts 16:30-33, has a detailed account of salvation.

From these verses, I gather: To be saved is to have one's mind renewed (totally altered) through recognizing God's grace and atonement (Jesus Christ powerful blood sacrifice).

Then there is sanctification... Sanctification is separate from salvation... Sanctification is a constant process in the Christian walk, where people trust God to empower them to strip sin out of their lives. I think a lot of people get the two confused...

God makes it perfectly clear throughout Scripture that a person can not love sin and love Him. If a person is made aware of his/her sin, yet they continue-- makes no attempt to part from it-- have they really believed?

Personally, I don't believe they have... Hence "false conversion" discussed earlier...

In summation, I interpret Scripture to say that once a person is truly saved by grace, they can not loose their Salvation.

Xavier
01-01-2007, 06:57 PM
WOW! I had a debate about this last night. I am not sure where I stand. I have been given scriptures to support both sides of the argument. I think that the important thing to remember is that if salvation can't be taken away that it does not give us a license to live any way we what(hince outside of God's will).