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Honey6928215
12-13-2006, 11:39 PM
With all the discussions we had in the past couple of weeks about maga churches and how they are making money off of the congregation while they are struggling, I though this will be a good discussion. This is an article I saw on another site. It's long but it's very interesting.



Swanky messiah not far-fetched in Prosperity Gospel

By JOHN BLAKE
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 10/22/06

Christians gather around the world each Christmas to sing about "poor baby Jesus" asleep in the manger with no crib for his bed.

But the Rev. Creflo Dollar looks inside that manger, and he doesn't see a poor baby at all.

RELATED LINK:

•Two schools of thought: Rich vs. poor




He sees a baby born into wealth because the kings visiting him gave him gold, frankincense and myrrh. He sees a messiah with so much money that he needed an accountant to track it. He sees a savior who wore clothes so expensive that the Roman soldiers who crucified him gambled for them.

Dollar sees a rich Jesus.

"He was rich, he was whole, and I use those words interchangeably," says Dollar, senior pastor of World Changers Church International, a 23,000-member College Park church, which broadcasts its services on six continents.

Dollar is part of a growing number of preachers who say that the traditional image of Jesus as a poor, itinerant preacher who "had no place to lay his head" is wrong.

"Did Jesus have money? Well, the Bible was clear. Kings brought him gold," Dollar says. "Did Jesus have money? It's clear. He had a treasurer to keep up with it."

Yet many academic scholars say pastors like Dollar are inventing a rich Jesus for selfish reasons.

"You're giving people divine sanctification to be greedy," says Sondra Ely Wheeler, an ethicist at Wesley Theological Seminary in Washington, D.C. "You tell them what they want to hear: The reason you have a Mercedes is because God loves you."

People have argued over their perception of Jesus for centuries. They've debated his politics, his race and more recently, his relationship with Mary Magdalene.

The new battleground: his economic status, because of the popularity of pastors like Dollar.

Dollar preaches the Prosperity Gospel, where the basic tenet is God rewards the faithful with wealth, spiritual power and debt-free living. And he is joined by a host of other nationally known preachers:

• Bishop T.D. Jakes, one of the most popular televangelist in the United States, a best-selling author and star of MegaFest, one of the largest annual revivals in the country.

• Televangelist Oral Roberts, founder of Oral Roberts University.

• And Atlanta's own Bishop Eddie Long, pastor of the city's largest church, New Birth Missionary Baptist Church in Lithonia, 25,000 strong.

Their teaching, once seen as a fringe theology championed by flamboyant characters like "Rev. Ike," a prosperity televangelist with a pompadour who once boasted during his heyday in the 1970s that his "garages runneth over," has now moved mainstream. In the 1970s and 1980s, the flamboyant Rev. Ike made millions by promising wealth to those who followed his unabashed emphasis on materialism.

Millions of people across the world watch prosperity preachers' broadcasts and attend their crusades.

But preaching the Prosperity Gospel presents a snag in logic to its proponents: If God wants people to be prosperous, why was Jesus poor?

Well, he wasn't, say many prosperity pastors. And although their claims appear to contradict 2,000 years of traditional Christianity, they say they can prove it through Scripture and history. They also invoke common sense: Jakes reportedly told a Dallas Observer reporter that Jesus had to be rich in order to support his disciples for three years.

'Supernatural provision'

Those who preach against a poor Jesus say they aren't trying to justify personal greed. Prosperity preachers like Dollar say their teaching isn't solely centered on money, but extends to other areas such as health and relationships. They say God will provide for the faithful in all areas of their life — just as he did for Jesus.

"When we are following God's will with all of our hearts, if it takes us to a place where we need God's supernatural provision to keep going, he will always provide it," says the Rev. Dennis Rouse of Victory World Church, a 5,000-member church in Gwinnett County.

And when it comes to Jesus, that's evident throughout his life, prosperity preachers say. How, for example, could Jesus have supported his mother when his father died early — unless he had ample money?

"It's historically inaccurate to say that Jesus was poor," says Bishop Johnathan Alvarado, senior pastor of Total Grace Christian Center in Decatur. Alvarado's church has 4,000 members who worship at two locations.

Alvarado also disputes the notion that Jesus was homeless — traditionally believed because of the passage in the ninth chapter of the Gospel of Luke where Jesus tells a would-be follower that he has "no place to lay his head."

But Alvarado says Jesus was speaking metaphorically — the world was not his home. "How many carpenters do you know who haven't built themselves a house?" he says.

And Jesus and his followers lived "sacrificially" by helping the poor and not trusting in their riches, Alvarado said. "Sacrifice is contextual," he says. " I can afford a BMW or a Bentley, but I drive a Nissan. ... It's OK to have stuff so long as stuff doesn't have you."

Dollar doesn't drive a Nissan. He drives a Rolls-Royce.

But he also believes that stories about Jesus being prejudiced against the rich have been misinterpreted. For example, he views the tale of the wealthy young ruler that Jesus confronts in the Gospel of Luke through different eyes.

In that encounter, the Gospels say Jesus told the man that it is "harder for a camel to squeeze through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Dollar says, however, Jesus wasn't saying wealth was a barrier to being accepted by God.

He says the "eye of the needle" was an ancient passageway entering Jerusalem that was so small that a camel had to drop to its knees to squeeze through. Jesus meant that a man who trusted in his riches would have similar difficulties adjusting to God's way of handling riches, Dollar says.

"This guy had an opportunity to love God with his possessions, but he couldn't do it because his possessions had him," Dollar says.

That same passage also proves that Jesus' disciples "were absolutely not poor," Dollar says. (The Gospels report that the disciples were astonished when Jesus told them about the perils of riches.) "If the disciples were poor, why would they get astonished?" Dollar says. "If they were poor, they should have jumped up and said, 'Whoopee, we're on our way.' "

Honey6928215
12-13-2006, 11:40 PM
CONTINUED....


'A lack of understanding'

However, if Jesus and his disciples weren't poor — because God had blessed them — what does that say about the millions of faithful Christians who live throughout the world in brutal poverty?

Is that due to a failure of their character?

When asked this, Dollar says: "Part of it may be, first of all, a lack of understanding. You cannot do better until you know better. I used to be broke and poor just like all of those other people. I had to first change the way I think."

Rick Hayes, a 14-year member of Dollar's church, agrees.

He says he was "homeless and hopeless" until he attended World Changers. He learned there that Jesus preached to the poor so they wouldn't be poor anymore. Today he is a medical supply salesman.

Hayes says he believes Jesus was rich because some biblical translations suggest Jesus — as a baby — was visited by a caravan of about 200 kings bearing gold, not three wise men. Jesus also needed wealth to pay travel expenses for his 12 disciples as they took the Gospel from city to city.

Hayes, quoting the ninth chapter of Ecclesiastes ("The words of a poor man are soon forgotten"), also says Jesus could not have attracted a devoted following if he was poor.

"Nobody is going to follow a broke man," Hayes says.

'By any means necessary'

Wheeler, the ethicist from Wesley seminary, sighs when she hears the arguments for Jesus being rich. She and other New Testament scholars say these pastors are distorting history and words and have no understanding of the socio-economic conditions of Jesus' time.

Wheeler, author of "Wealth as Peril and Obligation: The New Testament on Possessions" (Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, $20), says most biblical scholars don't even want to dignify the debate with a response.

She says that Dollar's argument that Jesus started off wealthy because of the gold he received at birth is nonsense. Only one out of the four Gospels even mentions the gold he received from a king and that passage never gives the value of the gift.

"The notion that you would go from that to the assertion Jesus is wealthy passes credulity," she says. "You have to want to get there by any means necessary."

She also disputes Dollar's interpretation of Jesus' encounter with the rich young ruler. Jesus was being literal when he said it was hard for the rich to enter the kingdom of God.

"What Jesus says is that it is rarer than teeth in chickens to find a person who can own many things and not be owned by them," she says.

Similarly, Obery M. Hendricks Jr., author of "The Politics of Jesus" (Doubleday, $26), scoffs at the contention that Jesus had enough money to support himself and his disciples for three years. Hendricks says the eighth chapter in the Gospel of Luke paints a different picture: Women, using their own meager means, covered the bills for Jesus and his disciples.

"If Jesus was rich, why would he need women to support him?" Hendricks asks.

Eric Meyers, a professor of archaeology at Duke University, says he has never heard a single reputable scholar argue for a rich Jesus.

"It's new to me," he says at the beginning of the conversation. But as he listens to a litany of arguments on why Jesus was rich, he breaks in: "Now you're getting me mad."

Meyers, who personally excavated the village of Nazareth where Jesus lived during a 19-year-period, says there is absolutely no evidence of an "eye of the needle" gate in Jerusalem.

And Meyers, editor of the Oxford Encyclopedia of Archaelogy in the Near East, says simply put, Jesus was poor — like virtually all the people around him.

"He didn't even have his own tomb," Meyers says. "He had to get it from a friend."

But Dollar says his interpretation of Jesus' ministry is just as valid as any scholar. His own prosperity is proof that God wants to bless his followers with financial and spiritual blessings — just as he did for baby Jesus.

"God didn't give the Bible just to theologians and scholars, he gave it to poor people," Dollar says. "He gave it to farmers, sheep-herders — we don't need somebody to help us misunderstand the Bible. If we just read the Book, things will begin to happen, and you'll see."

SweetCaramel1
12-13-2006, 11:48 PM
i'm not a bible expert but i always thought he was poor. can't wait for more responses. this should be interesting.

StrawberryQueen
12-13-2006, 11:48 PM
This is really a lot to read. I've always wondered the kind of research it would undertake to prove such things.

Honey6928215
12-13-2006, 11:50 PM
This is really a lot to read. I've always wondered the kind of research it would undertake to prove such things.

Sorry but I thought it would be pretty interesting. Plus, this came from the Atlanta Jounal Constition newspaper.

cocoberry10
12-14-2006, 12:09 AM
I saw some of Creflo Dollar's program on tv about "was Jesus rich?"

Obviously, God owns everything, so in that sense, yeah Jesus was rich. However, I believe when Jesus came to earth, He came to serve, and I have a hard time believing he was driving around in the Bentley or Maserati of his day (a really nice horse/donkey).

I won't say he was the poorest of the poor, but I certainly don't think He was the richest of the rich.

There's a website called http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/

In it, one of the things God wants us to know during the interview is that:

"the richest man is not the one who has the most, but he who NEEDS the least" I think that's something to consider with this topic.Jesus needed nothing, but He really lived the purest life of all.

Can't wait to hear what others think!!!

prettywhitty
12-14-2006, 12:09 AM
Very interesting read. I've heard this argument before, and both sides both give interesting points.
I believe that Jesus while on earth was wealthy. He had the Spirit of the living God within him. He healed and set so many people free- and is still doing so now at God's right hand. I don't think that you are poor when you have God living in you.
I know that today we as a society define prosperity according to the amount of our material possessions. But I think that it's more than that. We should give and be giving, which shares the love of God with others.

I hope I'm making sense here.

PaperClip
12-14-2006, 12:12 AM
If the definition of poor, according to the dictionary, is 1 a : lacking material possessions b : of, relating to, or characterized by poverty
2 a : less than adequate : MEAGER (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/meager) b : small in worth

then I am convinced that Jesus was not POOR in that He had everything He needed when He needed it. He had food when He was hungry, clothing, shelter, money for the tax collector, and even a tomb when He died. Some people would consider this rich.

kbragg
12-14-2006, 12:35 AM
:perplexed :perplexed :perplexed

Lord help us in these times lol. So how does he explain this scripture:

2 Corinthians 8


8I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
9For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
10And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.

There's a middle ground. Being poor does not make you more OR less spiritual, neither does being wealthy make you more or less spritual, but it's an issue of the heart. I think they are stretching it with this "worldly Jesus" theory lol. Basically:
2 Timothy 4:2-4 (King James Version)




2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

sums it up pretty well in my opinion. And why not? "Come to Jesus, get a Bentley" draws a much larger following than "repent of your sins, take up your cross, crucify your flesh daily, and follow me." And we wonder why 80% of people who "make a decision" for Christ backslide within the first year???

*Picks up megaphone*:orders:

HELLO!!!!!!!????!!!!!:nuts: :wallbash:
When people don't get their Bentley, or their mansion they drop Christ. When things get WORSE because they've made themselves an enemy to the prince of this world they think they got jipped.

www.wayofthemaster.com (http://www.wayofthemaster.com) <----This is what we need to get back too, forreal, because these prosperity preachers are preaching a counterfeit Chist and increasing the population of hell by leaps and bounds!:mad:

.

kbragg
12-14-2006, 12:42 AM
If the definition of poor, according to the dictionary, is 1 a : lacking material possessions b : of, relating to, or characterized by poverty
2 a : less than adequate : MEAGER (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/meager) b : small in worth

then I am convinced that Jesus was not POOR in that He had everything He needed when He needed it. He had food when He was hungry, clothing, shelter, money for the tax collector, and even a tomb when He died. Some people would consider this rich.

Actually, I'd concider that financially free:grin: I believe Jesus wanted for nothing, however, I don't flow with Creflo's theory that Jesus had 24 inch chrome rims on His chariot, platinum shoes on His donkey, "grills" and I definately don't think the grape juice they drank on the last supper was in one of these:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/sexigflicka/pimp_cup_bsc.jpg

Jesus Gear:

Crown of thorns??? No way!

http://wholesale-diamonds.50megs.com/wholesale_diamonds.jpg

Did Jesus look like THIS?

http://www.805hiphop.com/images/DonMagicJuan/donjuan.jpg

Because that's how some of these "prosperity preachers" look (ducking:look:)

.

shaydufblu
12-14-2006, 01:07 AM
When people don't get their Bentley, or their mansion they drop Christ. When things get WORSE because they've made themselves an enemy to the prince of this world they think they got jipped.

BTW, the pimp cup comment was funny. :lol:

Usually I stay out of this forum to avoid arguments, but I have to step in just to say a word. I happen to attend one of these 'mega-churches' (New Birth) and I was not attracted to the church by the promise of riches nor the promise of a Bentley. I decided to attend there simply because the minister was preaching the Word of God, pure and simple. Now, Creflo does talk a lot about money, but it's because he lived so much in poverty so he speaks to those who can relate. I can't defend him, won't try, but I just wanted to say that not all who go to these churches go thinking there's some 'magic revelation' that's gonna get us some money. A lot of people come down on these men because they are able to drive around in the Bentleys and have the nice houses, but if you are out there serving the people, spending all this time away from your family, traveling to war torn areas, why not? The Bible doesn't say that you have to be poor to serve God.

I can't say that I necessarily agree with a lot of Creflo's teachings (and he can go overboard at times, IMO), but you know how the media takes half of one something and makes up the other half. All I'm sayin is to think that because these men preside over mega-churches there has to be something wrong is wrong. You can find plenty o' crooks around the corner at your neighborhood church.

This is kind of touchy for me b/c I am a PK and growing up seeing people resent you and your family because your parents are trying to give you a good childhood and take care of you and have a good life for themselves too while serving the community didn't leave me with a good impression. It's different when you've seen it from the inside. Not all of these people's intentions may turn out to be noble and good (not a mind reader), but don't just look for what's wrong.

Yeah it's OT but I'm in a *speak my mind* kind of mood. :look: Just wanted to say that before this turned into a "ministers of big churches are just after money" discussion.

cocoberry10
12-14-2006, 02:26 AM
BTW, the pimp cup comment was funny. :lol:

Usually I stay out of this forum to avoid arguments, but I have to step in just to say a word. I happen to attend one of these 'mega-churches' (New Birth) and I was not attracted to the church by the promise of riches nor the promise of a Bentley. I decided to attend there simply because the minister was preaching the Word of God, pure and simple. Now, Creflo does talk a lot about money, but it's because he lived so much in poverty so he speaks to those who can relate. I can't defend him, won't try, but I just wanted to say that not all who go to these churches go thinking there's some 'magic revelation' that's gonna get us some money. A lot of people come down on these men because they are able to drive around in the Bentleys and have the nice houses, but if you are out there serving the people, spending all this time away from your family, traveling to war torn areas, why not? The Bible doesn't say that you have to be poor to serve God.

I can't say that I necessarily agree with a lot of Creflo's teachings (and he can go overboard at times, IMO), but you know how the media takes half of one something and makes up the other half. All I'm sayin is to think that because these men preside over mega-churches there has to be something wrong is wrong. You can find plenty o' crooks around the corner at your neighborhood church.

This is kind of touchy for me b/c I am a PK and growing up seeing people resent you and your family because your parents are trying to give you a good childhood and take care of you and have a good life for themselves too while serving the community didn't leave me with a good impression. It's different when you've seen it from the inside. Not all of these people's intentions may turn out to be noble and good (not a mind reader), but don't just look for what's wrong.

Yeah it's OT but I'm in a *speak my mind* kind of mood. :look: Just wanted to say that before this turned into a "ministers of big churches are just after money" discussion.

I have no problems with preachers being wealthy. In fact, I think it can be a good thing for kids in the community to see the preachers serving God and living well, not just drug dealers, etc.

However, this thread was about whether Jesus was rich (don't think I'm trying to start anything with you--I understand where you are coming from :) ).

I can't say I think Jesus was wealthy in the same way Creflo Dollar is wealthy. I do believe that Jesus was on the poorer end, but maybe not "dirt poor." Maybe he would be a working class person, but I have a hard time believing that Jesus was wealthy.

Again, I say to you that there are many examples in the bible of people serving God who were wealthy. David, Solomon, Job, Abraham, Joseph, Jacob, and so many others. So of course I don't doubt that God wants His followers to live in abundance and prosperity (of all kinds, not just material wealth).

HOWEVER, I do not totally agree with Creflo Dollar's series on Jesus' wealth. I guess in my walk with Christ, it's irrelevant to me personally whether He was wealthy or poor when He was here. I just try to focus on making my life and other's lives better, and living as much like Him as I can and pleasing Him! That's just me.

Enchantmt
12-14-2006, 03:38 AM
In biblical times many of Gods servants were blessed with wealth, there are passages that list the number of livestock and things they owned. There are biblical promises that speak to this. I dont know whether or not Jesus was rich, or the standard by which they are judging this, but he had enough money that he needed a treasurer to handle it (Judas), whom BTW was able to steal from them for 3 years w/o the money being noticed as missing by the other disciples, so I doubt they were just scraping by.

I feel problem lies in that some will take a prosperity message the wrong way and think that if someone is NOT prosperous financially, then they must be doing something SPIRITUALLY wrong, which is not true. God's word states that His blessing makes one rich and He adds no sorrow to it. Personally, I believe that God blesses folx financially and that it is His will to see us prosper but I dont think everyone is in a position to handle wealth. You see some folx come into money quickly and it almosts destroys them. Everyone is at a different stage of development.

shaydufblu
12-14-2006, 04:23 AM
However, this thread was about whether Jesus was rich (don't think I'm trying to start anything with you--I understand where you are coming from :) ).

Hey no offense taken! That was just what rubbed me the wrong way abt the article and I just wanted to speak on that. :)

It's just a thread on a hair board. Not that serious. :D

kbragg
12-14-2006, 08:11 AM
cocoberry10, ITA with everything you've said!;) Same with you Enchantmt and Shaydufblu:D As always, there's a "his side" "Her side" and usually in the middle there's the truth. So why all this focus on Jesus's financial status? I believe people make Jesus out to be how they want Him to be to justify their lives. Poor people, want a dead broke homeless Jesus to justify their poverty. Materialistic people envision a "big pimpin, speandin G's'" Jesus to justify their materialism and love of this world and all it's trappings. Middle class people, envision Jesus as a working class comfortable person, to justify their complacency. It's all relative.

The problem lies in the post modern mindset which states that YOUR truth doesn't have to be MY truth, but it's all truth, which is a LIE from the pit of hell! There's only one truth. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for wealth (working towards it as I type:cool:), and financial freedom. We can help a LOT more people being rich than being in debt (which the Bible CLEARLY speaks against BTW), and the money would be better in our hands than a perv like Larry Flint:mad: The problem with the post modern mindset is instead of getting our ideas and revelation from the Bible, we get a revelation or idea from our own minds, and then look for scriptures to confirm our thinking. We even switch between different versions seeking the answer WE want instead of seeking God's Word FIRST and basing our thinking on that. This is wrong, and IMO why if you pick up some of these minister's books, they site 15 different versions of the Bible. Why not just use one version and stick to it? Because it won't work in making your point, that's why.

The problem with modern man is like modern medicine people focus too much on treating the SYMPTOM not the root issue. For example, a greedy poor (yes, I said greedy poor) person, has to justify their poverty so they can STAY in it. They know, whether consciously or subconsciously that if they had a lot of money they'd spend it everywhere BUT with God and get caught up in the trappings of this world. So what do they do? They demonize the wealthy to ensure that they'll NEVER be like that. So they preach a poor Jesus, and evil rich people so they can continue their lives in poverty and debt which the Bible CLEARLY speaks against. Sounds crazy, but it's true. They're treating the symptom (money) and not the root issue (their heart).

A middle class person wants to stay comfortable. They don't want to stretch themselves either way. They don't want to give up their worldy comforts, but they also don't want to put the work in required to become wealthy. So what do they do? They preach a "just enough to get by" Christ to justify their complacency which the Bible also CLEARLY speaks against. They stay in a comfort zone and never do much in their lives. Not to be confused with contentment. Contentment is being satified with what you have, and appreciating what God has given you, but continuing to grow and strive for perfection. Complacency is "this is just the way it is and I can't change it so oh well" which is NOT the mind of Christ.

A wealthy person wants to stay wealthy. If God called them to sell all their things and become missionaries in Africa, they'd be rebuking the devil!:lachen:(I know someone who did this:look:) They enjoy their things so much it consumes them but don't realize it until someone mentions sacrifice (kinda like a smoker who "thinks" they're not addicted to smoking until they try to quit). Then they get all hot and bothered lol. So what do they do? They preach a "big pimpin" Jesus who was super rich, who had all these possessions, so they can justify their attachment to the world. They treat the symptom not the root issue.

The TRUTH can be found in the Word of God. Jesus is the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. So since He was God, He already owned it all anyways. I belive He had supernatural provision. Remember when Jesus took the 5 loaves and 2 fish and fed the 5,000 men PLUS women and children? Did He pay for it? Or when He healed the blind. Did He pay for them to have Lasik's?(Sorry:lol:) NO! The truth is people came to Jesus because of who He is, not what He owned. Creflo's idea that no one would follow Jesus if He wasn't rich shows where his mindset is (sorry girl, I know he's your pastor:look:). Perhaps HE would not follow a non wealthy Jesus. But to me, that's putting God in a box. Sure, people wouldn't follow a broke man (maybe, maybe not, I mean look at Nelson Mandella) but Jesus was/is more than a man! THAT'S why people followed Him.

I believe Jesus did everything miraculously (even pay taxes). He wasn't some lavish "pimp" the diciple's wen't His "entourage of playa's" Mary Magdaline was not "Buffy The Body"(sorry:lol:) and Martha was NOT" Beyonce"!!!:lachen: Jesus also wasn't so broke that he had to borrow money. Jesus is the example of how we ALL could live if we put our 100% faith in God. Jesus didn't live by cash, He lived by faith. Now by faith He could've had all those things which IMO was why He didn't give in the satan's temptation (funny how one of the temptations was great wealth and power), but He didn't need any of it. He had more pressing matters to atttend to and I am soooo greatful that He did!

I could just shake Creflo for that article!!!:mad: Does He not know who God is? Jesus didn't have to opperate within our limits. Remember the wedding party? Did He go down to the liquor sto' and get some mo' foty's?:lachen::look:(sorry) NO! He MIRACULOUSY turned water into wine! (non-alchoholic wine,but we'll save that for a later discussion;)) Jesus did everything miraculously by FAITH, not by money. God's power transends money, thought, even time! This is what we're supposed to strive for!

.

PaperClip
12-14-2006, 09:04 AM
Actually, I'd concider that financially free:grin: I believe Jesus wanted for nothing, however, I don't flow with Creflo's theory that Jesus had 24 inch chrome rims on His chariot, platinum shoes on His donkey, "grills" and I definately don't think the grape juice they drank on the last supper was in one of these:



Jesus Gear:

Crown of thorns??? No way!



Did Jesus look like THIS?

http://www.805hiphop.com/images/DonMagicJuan/donjuan.jpg

Because that's how some of these "prosperity preachers" look (ducking:look:)

.

I must admit that I didn't read the Creflo Dollar article, so I wasn't responding directly to that.... I suppose if somebody, including a pastor, wanted to "bling out", it ain't wrong as long as they're not stealing God's glory or money and they're doing what God told them to do in terms of ministering to the people or whatever else they were called to do.

Bling is individual. What's bling to one is tacky to another. Or too much, or too little. (Shrug)

shaydufblu
12-14-2006, 01:20 PM
cocoberry10, ITA with everything you've said!;) Same with you Enchantmt and Shaydufblu:D As always, there's a "his side" "Her side" and usually in the middle there's the truth. So why all this focus on Jesus's financial status? I believe people make Jesus out to be how they want Him to be to justify their lives. Poor people, want a dead broke homeless Jesus to justify their poverty. Materialistic people envision a "big pimpin, speandin G's'" Jesus to justify their materialism and love of this world and all it's trappings. Middle class people, envision Jesus as a working class comfortable person, to justify their complacency. It's all relative....

Girrrl, you all fired up this morning, ain't cha! :grin: Very thought-provoking post. I agree with a lot of what you said. Funny about the pastor 'rebuking the debil'. :lachen:

Sweet C
12-14-2006, 04:10 PM
In biblical times many of Gods servants were blessed with wealth, there are passages that list the number of livestock and things they owned. There are biblical promises that speak to this. I dont know whether or not Jesus was rich, or the standard by which they are judging this, but he had enough money that he needed a treasurer to handle it (Judas), whom BTW was able to steal from them for 3 years w/o the money being noticed as missing by the other disciples, so I doubt they were just scraping by.

I feel problem lies in that some will take a prosperity message the wrong way and think that if someone is NOT prosperous financially, then they must be doing something SPIRITUALLY wrong, which is not true. God's word states that His blessing makes one rich and He adds no sorrow to it. Personally, I believe that God blesses folx financially and that it is His will to see us prosper but I dont think everyone is in a position to handle wealth. You see some folx come into money quickly and it almosts destroys them. Everyone is at a different stage of development.

I agree with this. I think we can all pretty much agree that spiritually he was rich. But I would not say that Jesus was poor physically based upon the Biblical information that Enchantment pointed out. We know that he came and made himself of no reputation, but for years, I have heard about this poor Jesus, who was barely making it and then when I read the Word, I find that he had provisions for his ministry and was able to take care of at least 12 other people. And when he didn't have it, his Father provided for him. I think one of the greatest lessons we can learn from Jesus is to trust in him no matter what our situation is.

Pam Pam
12-14-2006, 07:32 PM
Did Jesus look like THIS?

http://www.805hiphop.com/images/DonMagicJuan/donjuan.jpg

Because that's how some of these "prosperity preachers" look (ducking:look:)

.

Not Bishop Don Juan???:lachen:

OT: My godkids' father is kin to him some type of way. You always know when it's him with that green and gold car.

I would love to hear one of his sermons. I bet it would be hilarious.:lol:

Pam Pam
12-14-2006, 07:37 PM
Well, I guess I view it like this...God said he owns cattle on a thousand hills and that if we accept Christ, we are joint "heirs." So I don't believe Jesus was poor by any means. But I don't think he was all that interested in material wealth because his faith was so strong that God will provide.

I believe you reap what you sow, be it good or bad.